The Mentalist Fire and Brimstone Review


Armed with the new clue that RJ has a tattoo on his left shoulder, Jane (Baker) tells his plan to Lisbon (Tunney) and the team: he wants to get his five remaining suspects to come to a big trap to identify who is the serial killer.

Concise Verdict

Ken Woodruff, writer of ‘Blinking Red Light’, presented us with another dramatically intense and emotionally charged episode. In spite of some easy options, the plot and suspenseful writing keep viewers on their toes and make for a good introduction for the long-awaited building climax.

Detailed AKA Humungous Analysis (spoilers galore)

VIS #1: the opening/flash forward

In the best tradition of films noirs and thrillers, the episode starts dramatically in medias res with Jane setting everything for another of his big plans to catch RJ. First, Patrick is coming in the night to his Malibu house, presented as the “Jane family residence”. Right away, there is then a reminder of the past, since technically the house hasn’t been occupied by his family for years now. Upon entering, Jane is seen taking out a shotgun in a room filled with furniture covered in linen, which hints that he isn’t in the main house (it was empty in the pilot). The tension kicks up a notch when Lisbon calls him on his phone and asks “don’t do this, not without me.” She adds that he’s in danger, that she’s begging him: « you do this and you’re throwing your life away ».
But, whereas Lisbon is worried about his safety and the consequences of what he has in mind, Jane is dismissive and tells her goodbye before hanging up on her. The gun he pulls out confirms both that what he plans is very dangerous, since he feels the need to have a second gun, and that he’s decided to commit a murder. Besides, Jane handles the weapon like a pro, like in ‘The Desert Rose’. He prepares the setting by hiding his firearms and waits, like a hunter laying in wait for his prey. When a shadow appears behind the glass and starts opening the door, the situation seems suddenly like the opposite of what he lived in the pilot: this time, he’s the one waiting behind a closed door, instead of his murdered family and it’s the other –presumably RJ or one of the other  suspects – who is about to get a nasty surprise. This role reversal enlightens that here begins really the conclusion of this story arc. Things are coming full circle…

The suspects; five ducks in a row:

Two days earlier, we can see how he explained the situation with the help of Lisbon to the team in his CBI attic. In this council of war, he reveals the existence of the three dots tattoo and that RJ doesn’t know that he knows about it… He needs their help to gather all the suspects in one place to confront them. When the agents express their doubts about the suspects coming to him, he adds that he doesn’t plan of giving the men a choice (putting emphasis on the fact that he has no claim in premeditating violence…).

Truth be told, this master plan is very similar to Kirkland’s way of handling the list: to force them to come with him, getting them isolated and confronting them. To some point, this path Jane is willing to follow after Bob has been hinted in the previous episode: in ‘The Red Tattoo’, Jane was biting into the apple that in his reconstitution symbolized the weapon used in the murder. It looked like an inoffensive act, but might have had a deeper meaning. First, it could indicate that Jane was about to bit into the proverbial apple of knowledge: he’s about to discover who is RJ and is tempted to use violence to do so (cf. Genesis 2, 15, God said to Adam: “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”)… And that apple had been alluded to by Jane when Kirkland was threatening him: as Rose UK pointed out in the comments for the previous review, the consultant commented that “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, huh?”, giving the expression a new meaning in retrospective…

The difference between the two men is that Jane plans to get them all in one go and that he prefers not to use violence to lure them in…. which can be explained by the fact that, unlike Bob, he has allies who can work with him. Still, it shows that he’s in a comparable state of mind: he may not want to torture them or to kill them all if he can help it, but he’s driven by the same cold determination. And it’s obvious for who knows him, even without watching the opening, that he cannot involve the team in an intended murder. He’s planning to act à la ‘Strawberry and Cream’: to use them to clear the ground before leaving them behind to get to the suspect alone.

The problem is brought up by Lisbon: she states that she’s willing to get along with his scheme on one condition, she wants to be here. Jane agrees easily, but Lisbon is not fooled: she remarks that he doesn’t mean it and that this is non negotiable. Jane agrees on this point; unfortunately, it’s patent that the meaning he puts on this non negotiable condition is very different: he resolutely doesn’t plan to bring her along.

One by one, the five suspects are talked into joining Jane at an undisclosed meeting place.

1) Smith: he’s approached by Jane at a crime scene, which puts emphasis on his status as an investigator. The corpse is rather gory: there is blood and the man was hanged which may or not hint at a form of punishment –like what Jane is planning… The concrete urban setting reminds of the crime scene where they met at the beginning of ‘Red Listed’: in that episode, he accused Jane of being the murderer of one of the man on the fake list (kind of foreshadowing) and killed Kirkland himself as a member of that secret criminal organization Bob talked about…
And, almost exactly like Kirkland, Jane meets him alone and asks for his help, using almost the same words: « I’m not sure who I can trust so I’m trusting you». He truthfully dangles the bait of significant information on RJ. Reede is eager to be privy to that juicy tidbit and both play on the false truce they’d feigned coming to when Kirkland was arrested (no hard feelings and shaking hands). Jane finally gets him to agree to meet him two days later to give him some time to find a safe place to talk.

2) McAllistair: at night, it’s the good ol’ sheriff that Jane is calling. The man is hunting and the moment gives him a very creepy and dangerous vibe as he is holding a shotgun while still wearing his uniform and sitting in his car. In addition of foreshadowing Jane’s own lying in wait moment, that reminds of his remark about hunting anything with a face and it means that he doesn’t really makes a difference between his job and his hobby… Jane interrupts him when he’s spotted a deer (like the one Jane and Lisbon came across in ‘Red Moon’, in which RJ tried to set a trap for the consultant).
Like he did with Smith, “Patrick” plays the trust card: he pretends that he’s calling for help (« when we were in Napa, you said you were at my disposal »). He’s offering Tom the opportunity of getting closer to him and to get involved in the chase, instead of luring him with information like he did with Smith: he adapts the bait to each of them. And when the sheriff asks if it involves the case RJ, Jane hangs up, leaving the man even more intrigued.

3) Haffner: Lisbon meets him at a dinner; again, she pretends to need his help. The setting is cleverly casual, if not slightly secretive or friendly… yet Haffner promptly guesses that she has a hidden agenda. The anger Jane accused him of feeling in the previous episode flares at her: “you question me or you arrest me”. This underlines implicitly how tricky what they’re doing is: they don’t have legal reasons to gather them and Lisbon actually cannot do either of those things…
Lisbon then threatens him with the notion that Jane will come after him either way: what is the problem showing up then? Poor Lisbon, for her this is an empty threat, but Jane doesn’t share this point of view.
Moreover, it’s interesting that Lisbon tries to play both on the personal aspect (meeting him alone for a coffee, which might make him think it’s an almost date) and on the professional one (telling him that she will own him if he tells her where Stiles is hiding out). And, another telling point is that she cannot lie: Haffner understands what she’s after almost right away.

4) Bertram: Next on the list is their boss and Lisbon cannot hide her nervousness in front of Jane as they make their way towards his office. Indeed, in addition to the fact that she’s afraid of him –as her nightmare suggested-, there’s the problem that his position will cause major difficulties: there would be consequences if he happens to be RJ and even if he isn’t, this little stunt won’t be good for her career (cf. the way he was trying to get rid of them in ‘Little Red Book’). Hence her apprehension and their silence afterwards.
Again, they use the (true) pretext of a break in the RJ case, which has a double advantage: implicitly their next move will need his approval – he asked them to warn him beforehand unlike they did in the mess that took place in the desert with the FBI. And Gale has insistently stated in the premiere and repeats again that he wants to be here. Still, despite his enthusiasm at those « fantastic news », there is something speculative in his attitude. This is developed when Jane and Lisbon are gone, as Bertram closes the door (made of something that looks like red wood). He starts whistling an air that reminds a bit of the one Haffner was whistling after exiting Teresa’s hospital room, then calls someone to tell them about the talk he just had. In ‘Strawberry and Cream’, he did call someone too, after being told where Hightower was presumably hiding: he seemed to have been changing the date of a meeting, but who knows what else he said afterwards? More and more, the man seems to be part of something bigger like the ‘Tyger, Tyger” conspiracy. It was hinted by that secret reunion he had with Smith and McAllister and, like then, he seems to be taking orders or at the very least advice from someone else, may it be Smith again or someone else.

5) Stiles: the cult leader gets special treatment, probably because he hasn’t showed up during Jane’s investigation on the seven primary suspects and is the only one who didn’t get focused on during an episode. Therefore, his circumstances are explained in small parts in between the meetings with the others suspects

– First, as he was said to have vanished in ‘The Red Tattoo’, Cooper reveals that his master is actually dying, or, like the man put it, he’s elevating himself to another plan. Since Bret is associated with spirituality, the expression makes sense…

– … except that the reality behind those words is much more troubling. Usually, Bret is presented as a powerful cult leader, yet his power is expressed by his influence on his followers and the pressure he puts on them. Even though he’s a spiritual counsellor, his image reminds a bit of a calculating businessman eager to prey on more vulnerable souls. Therefore this episode is the first time we really get to see another side of his power: he’s not wearing his usual black suit and white dress shirt, but a floating white robe with a round medallion. This attire gives him a high priest look, while the robe alone reminds a bit of a Christian alb… When he enters a room behind closed doors, two young women walk next to him, both wearing white robes too and their hair in a bun; they remind a little of the idea people would have of Vestal Virgins of some kind… the candlelight adds to the mystical atmosphere of a secret sacred ceremony. In front of his many followers, Bret then takes a golden stylized chalice and pours what looks like blood on the naked skin of one of the two women, who has taken off her cloth. The whole act looks like a disturbing twisted version of a part of the Christian liturgy for Eucharist, when the priest drinks wine as a substitute for Christ’s blood, following the words Jesus said during the Last Supper while holding wine: “this is my blood”. Bret presents himself as a Savior too, before his death and his promised resurrection. Yet, the blood reminds of a satanic ceremony, at least like they are depicted in movies (naked women and blood); that aspect of Visualize was hinted at in ‘The Red Barn’, when the farmers were accused of using animals in satanic-like rituals… And this interpretation is reinforced when Stiles uses the blood to put a mark on the forehead and cheeks, in a twisted christening reminding again of the mark of the Beast in the Bible and the smiley drawn by RJ on Lisbon’s face. It may give a whole new dimension to the ending of ‘The Desert Rose’, as Brett Partridge might have been killed only to provide blood. Either way, blood seems to have a spiritual meaning for Visualize members, maybe linked to the notion of regeneration, as hinted by Stiles’ words « witness my ascension to a word beyond » and « I will return ». It’s become obvious that Visualize is not only an organization centred on self-development and spirituality, but a full on sect, with its beliefs and dogmas. It’s even more troubling since some of RJ’s followers expressed their attachment to the serial killer as a form of religion, like Gupta for instance who defined himself as a deeply religious person.

– Later, Lisbon decides to send Grace to the consulate where he’s hiding. The younger agent is afraid as is her husband: she tries to reassure him telling him « I’ll be fine, it’s my job »… which may be foreshadowing of something terrible happening to them. She meets Stiles, who obviously likes her since ‘His Thoughts Were Red Thoughts’ and has been keeping tabs on her since he knows she’s married. Yet, in spite of his nice greeting, he refuses to follow her even as she tries to convince him that she’d be acting behind the FBI back. He puts emphasis on the fact that he’s in a consulate, which protects him from any law enforcement agency.
– As a consequence; Jane decides to meet him behind the graceful appearance, soon starts threatening the cult leader. Bret’s response is brief: “a dying man doesn’t fear death” explaining that he has close to two weeks, a month left. He amends that “it’s nothing personal, it’s just that my time now is very precious”, which indirectly the urgency of the situation enlightens for Jane too). He adds: “it’s more to this than you know, more keeping me there”, as he is trapped because of the FBI; yet it might also hint at the idea that there is more to RJ than Jane knows. As a result of their talk, Jane helps him escape, like he did with Hightower (making the FBI think the other is in the car when it’s only him).


Image by Chizuruchibi. Copyright Reviewbrain December, 2013. Not to be used without permission.

Also, taking Bret’s place in the limo reminds of the conclusion of the confrontation in ‘The Crimson Hat’- which puts discreetly emphasis on Jane’s plan to execute the serial killer, since both times he bought a gun to the meeting as indicated at the beginning of the episode.

VIS #2: Jane and Lisbon in the attic

After talking to Bertram, Jane and Lisbon go to the attic, where he decides to show her his shotgun and he says he would be “persuasive” if he is allowed to talk to Stiles, both things reinforcing the idea of violence.
Lisbon tells him then that he doesn’t want her here because he thinks she will stop him. She explains that she won’t because “some men, men like RJ”, don’t deserve a trial in front of a jury, but deserve what is coming to them and should face their comeuppance. Jane is skeptical: “let me get it straight. After close to twenty years working in law enforcement, you’re changing your mind?
– About RJ, yes.
– I’m surprised, Lisbon…
– Well, you don’t believe me?”
Jane answers: “I know you’d never lie about something like this, right?” Lisbon replies “right”, but there’s something of a hesitation in her voice. Jane concludes then “tomorrow night, then?
He knows she is lying which may explain why he act like he does afterwards… It’s probable Jane has been having his doubts about her reaction to the final act even after they’ve become closer: after all, he hesitated slightly before telling her about Kira’s clue.

VIS #3: sunset watching…

When everything is set up, Jane contacts the five suspects by texting them his Malibu address. Again, the phones have an important role, like when Lisbon was attacked by RJ (see the review for ‘The Desert Rose’). Besides, as a wink to last season, there are some white orchids and red roses in the truck Stiles is hiding into… is that a hint that there are two possible outcomes for Jane –to get out of it alive and victorious hence the hopeful orchids, or to die in a bloodbath? Either way, the huge bouquet has a solemn or even kinda mortuary vibe to it…

While Jane’s driving with Lisbon to his Malibu house, he abruptly stops by the roadside bathed in the sweet golden light coming from the sunset. His only explanation is “I want to see the sunset”, before getting off the car and walking towards the ridge. It’s interesting that he walks by her side of the car without opening her door: he indirectly makes her follow his lead instead of inviting her to come with him, just like he is doing with his plan as a matter of fact. He’s setting the rules and she isn’t aware of it.
Jane has obviously decided to have a heart to heart with his partner, in case he doesn‘t make it out alive, in the same way Van Pelt and Rigsby exchanged love words before she went to Stiles. He states that there’s something he wanted to tell her for a long time, like he did in ‘Strawberry and Cream’ in front of Gupta’s door. On both occasions, he wanted to express his attachment to her before getting himself in danger, but also that time, he also used his words as a distraction to trick Gupta… Patrick then says that he wants to thank her for everything she has done, adding “you have no idea what you’ve meant to me… What you mean to me.” And he hugs her tightly… tender words and a poignant moment: those are the ingredients he used in ‘The Crimson Hat’ to express what he felt… but the difference is that now Lisbon hugs him back. She’s moved, happy and embarrassed: it’s obviously a meaningful moment and the beautiful sunset and romantic setting only add to the emotional atmosphere…. And then, things go down and Jane officially wins the medal of the lamest ending for a confession ever: he pretends to have a surprise for her in the car and lets her stranded in the middle of nowhere without her phone… Poor Teresa’s incredulous eyes are heartbreaking… Ouch!

This scene is laced with references to previous episodes. In a way, it reminds of the night he spent with Lorelei on the beach when the sun was setting in ‘Red Sails in the Sunset’: the confrontation with RJ is the conclusion of his escapade with RJ’s girl, as she gave him then the clue of having shaken hands with the murderer. Also, it implicitly draws a comparison between Lisbon and Lorelei, as his confession to Lisbon is certainly more sincere (he confessed to loving her before, in ‘The Crimson Hat’, so it’s not a spur of the moment), nevertheless he plans to use her too. Besides, he’d been stranding her too in ‘Cackle-Bladder Blood’ (S3E2), when she was distracted with Daisy the elephant… and she paid him back in ‘Bloodhounds’ (S3E12): that’s part of their history, but they were supposed to have gotten past those tricks when he decided to trust her as his partner… Which brings the question: is he only tricking her in order not to be stopped from killing RJ? Or does he also want to protect her from the danger? He was frantic when the serial killer smeared her face with blood and he lied to Kirkland by telling him he never told anyone about the list… He’s probably as worried for her life as she is for his. The fact that he wants to kill RJ and make peace with his past doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about her: in the past seasons, his personal quest as been in par with protecting her, considering that when they were stranded in the middle of nowhere, he told her that he was always going to save her, may she want it or not. Here, she obviously doesn’t, but that doesn’t deter him… All in all, there were therefore an almost confession, a goodbye, an attempt at protecting her and a trick all wrapped into one golden moment…

VIS #4: in the guest house

His trip ends with the scene at the very beginning of the episode: Jane is driving to his house, his face hardened and determined. We follow his steps as more details are added to the first version of the scene: he goes to the bedroom where his family died, armed with his shotgun in a very symbolical gesture. He looks at the faded smiley in the cold moonlight (contrasting with the light of the sunset he left Lisbon in) and the moment has a poignant solemnity, almost like a silent prayer. Then, he climbs down the stairs, just like he climbed them up in the pilot: every step that takes him to concluding this part of his life is loaded with reminders of the past. He goes to what looks like a guest house in the garden and, upon entering, viewers realize that’s the place he was seen in the beginning; his two firearms were of the same kind he used previously in his quest to get to the serial killer. He used a shotgun to threaten Hightower when he thought she was the mole in ‘Red Queen’; he shot Carter with a handgun in ‘Strawberry and Cream’, after establishing a first list of potential suspects of RJ’s mole: everything is coming together. Still, there’s a big difference with his previous schemes to catch the elusive killer: before, his ideas were much more elaborated. Here, he builds everything based on one clue alone; no interrogation, no reading of human behaviour, only one visual proof. Like Lisbon pointed out in the premiere, he doesn’t know he is doing and bounces in the first opportunity that seems concrete enough… and that’s pretty risky.

After taking the gun from the safe (another locked door opening), Jane tries to calm himself: his stress is visible as he briefly alleviates the tension in his neck. Someone is coming at the door and the whistling makes viewer think it’s Bertram because the air sounds like the one heard in the office. But it’s Stiles. This detail is pretty unsettling, because it means that Bret, Bertram, Haffner and McAllister have in common this particularity discovered by Sophie Miller. It hints that Jane could be making a terrible mistake in placing all his hopes in another clue that may be as ambiguous as this one. Plus the whole thing may very well end up a trap to get to Jane, if the suspects share a common objective, since Jane is all alone with them…

Soon, the five suspects are sitting in front of him and he exposes the situation. When they start protesting and trying to grab their weapons, he coldly points his shotgun at them while stating « don’t. I will shoot you »… He forces them to pull out their guns and throw them on the floor; which enlightens that another problem might arise for Jane: he seems to assume each one has only one firearm, yet himself has two…
Jane keeps talking: RJ is one of them and this time, he made a mistake. He asks them to take off their shirt in order to see the tattoo. MacAllister has it. Seeing the obsessive look Jane casts his way, the sheriff is afraid and utters « you’ve got the wrong man, I’m not RJ »… Truth be told, the man is the suspects gathering the more leads – he whistles, hunts because “game’s game”, a vocabulary typically linked with RJ and has apparently a phobia of pigeons; not to mention that he appeared right after the pilot. Yet, Stiles diverts Jane’s attention by stressing “don’t, Patrick! Look, look!”, pointing that Bertram and Smith have one too… only the two Visualize members don’t have one in fact. Therefore, the trio meeting in Bertram’s office are the three main suspects, even more for viewers who knows that at least one of them is a murderer who is part of the “Tyger, Tyger” organization.

Jane recovers quickly and says “you three, all against the wall now” in a classic posture for an execution. The next shot shows the house from outside: we can hear shooting once… Now, who shot whom? There were three men and only one gunshot… and Jane was turning his back from the other two –among whom there’s a former cop. And anyone may have been carrying a second weapon. Has Jane made the very same mistake he did in the first case in the season premiere, not counting on the killer carrying the second gun in his waistband? Indeed, the possibility that they’re not RJ, according to Kira’s clue, doesn’t mean that they aren’t involved somehow… Like Visualize has been working to plant seeds years beforehand to get members in influential positions (like that politician who sheltered Stiles), it may have worked hand in hand with another organization using the same methods among cops… If that’s the case, the three tattooed men might work as a triumvirate at the head of the cop organization, like hinted by the interpretation of Renfrew’s last written words as « he is man(y) ». After all, there’s a literary precedent in the classic novel ‘The Murderer Lives at Number 21’ by Steeman. That could be the meaning behind the three dots: each of them works in a branch of law enforcement –local police, state agency and federal agency. And, on a side note, it might be a coincidence or me reading too much into details, but McAllister more or less matches Rosalind’s description: “just under 6 feet tall” (he’s 6’0’’, so he comes the closest), “not muscular, but not soft either; short, straight hair; a gentle voice; rough, strong hands; he smelled of pine and nails and earth” and he showed a similar sense of humor and disposition than Jane. And, as Anomalycommenter pointed out in the comments for the ‘Red Listed’ review, both Bertram and Smith were under thirty when the murders took place at the Ellis farm… Even if none of them fits on his own all the different criteria, together they do, or so it seems.

Meanwhile, Lisbon is coming to the rescue. After walking in the dark for hours, she has forcefully taken a car using her badge. Her façade is crumbling progressively: she introduced herself formally when she stopped this car, then she dismissively grabs the phone from the helpless diver’s hand while saying « good idea », before speeding up in the night and nearly causing an accident. When she arrives, she loses precious moments going inside the main house (has she the key or was the door open?) then runs towards the guest house calling Jane’s name. And there’s an explosion which blows her away from the building. Again, who placed the bomb? Is that one of the suspects or Jane himself to cover his tracks? In the second screening of his arrival, we got a lot more details. There can be more things he did that we were not privy to… Either way, Lisbon finds herself in the same situation Jane was at the end of the season premiere: he went alone into a vacant house and she doesn’t know if he’s alive.

Pet Peeves

– Truth be told, it’s frustrating to say the least that after every single clue Jane got, they made the last one the only effective of the series. It cheapens the trick a bit. Moreover, which proof has Jane that RJ killed Kira himself indeed, instead of sending a minion? If he had a gut feeling, they should have made it explicit. Same thing if they wanted to play with the ambiguity of the situation. And, honestly, those clues don’t add up or at least don’t explain Jane’s behavior: he could have discarded Rosalind’s description as a lie given that she was still very much in love with him, but what about the age range given by the farm? Normally, this clue should have excluded Stiles, for instance –unless the “kid” was a follower he groomed to help him commit his crimes and clean his sect of the druggies living here. A kid like Bertram, Reede , like I said, or even Sheriff Hardy for example… The other clues, like the whistling and the phobia, were obviously meant to plant some red herrings, but it remains that until further explanation, it seems to be a big problem of conception here. It feels like the end of the Volker arc, when they needed him to make some huge mistakes and put everything happening at the end under the cover explanation that he panicked and acted crazy. Here, the tattoo is mostly a pretext meant to explain why Jane didn’t decide to gather them before.

– Also, they should have shown a bit more of their arrival at the house: for instance, Bret claimed to be in trouble with the FBI and FBI agent Smith was here so it should have made an interesting situation…


Tyger, tyger, burning bright/ In the forests of the night”… Has the Tyger burnt during this night or is that a trick? Either way, the explosion explains the “Fire” in the title and also refers to the Bible once again, reinforced by the religious context brought by Stile’s ritual.
Indeed, the ‘Fire and Brimstone’ is the way God chose to punish Sodom and Gomorrah (“Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire”, Genesis, 19, 23). But, more importantly, those things represent the wrath of God against the devil. In Revelation, 21, 8 (the following quotes are taken from the New American Standard translation), we have:

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral person and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Among the suspects, we have at least one unbelieving and idolater (Haffner is member of Visualize), one sorcerer (Stiles), a certain murderer (Smith) and one abominable (RJ is among them). And they’re all liars to some extent.

Before that, in Revelation, 14, 10, there’s also:

“He also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”

The anger has been mentioned in reference to Haffner whom Jane noticed was angry for an unknown reason. And the torment imagined by Jane for his nemesis was to happen in his house “in the presence of the Lamb”, that is, of himself.

And, in Revelation, 20:

“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years […] And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. […] When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the ooks, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

There are some details common to the text and the last scene: the angel is bounding the dragon like Jane is trying to stop the serial killer. In ‘Wedding in Red’, he commented on not having wings, which compared him to an angel (there were one in front of the church and one on a stained-glass window inside). The mark on the forehead or on the hand indicate those who had worshipped the beast: the three-dot tattoo on the shoulder is a more discreet version of that mark and it also indicates who is working for this new kind of evil. The fire coming down from heaven to devour the devil’s warriors might or not remind of the explosion; either way, both “the beast and the false prophet” are thrown in the “lake of fire of brimstone”: the beast being RJ and the false prophet Stiles, since in theory both of them were caught in the fire….
The last part about the judgement of the souls, the corrupted ones being also thrown into the lake of fire, might refer to the last part of the investigation which might occur afterwards, if Jane goes after the rest of the organization: the minions ought to be identified and stopped altogether. That might be the meaning being the sheet-covered furniture in the house: Jane might be the one judging them from his “great white throne”, which might prove dangerous. That would mean is deeming himself the right to play God, to judge who is guilty and who is worthy. The problem is that he can make mistakes: that have been shown when he found himself with three possible RJ instead of one…

Anyway, the title indicates that the downfall of RJ is coming closer: the wrath of Jane is becoming a serious threat and the ‘Fire and Brimstone’ -symbols of the torment inflicted to the wicked in Hell for eternity- represents the comeuppance the serial killer will be getting for his murders.

Please, share your favorites scenes and lines! Thanks for reading! 🙂

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108 responses to “The Mentalist Fire and Brimstone Review

  • Rose UK

    Firstly, Violet, what an absolutely lovely and intelligent review. 🙂 Great work on symbolism, motifs and references (most of which I completely missed this time round)!

    I have a lot to say about this episode! I’m just so glad I managed to remain spoiler-free for it, because I was pretty blown away (if you’ll pardon the pun).

    Firstly, I’m not sure why, exactly, but I have always associated the image of “fire and brimstone” with sorcery and magic tricks. Like a conjurer creating a bang to make an illusion of some kind, or a witchy fiery spell. That’s what I took from the explosion scene (once I’d calmed down enough to think about it coherently).

    That sunset scene was just gorgeous. *Sniffle*. Saturated in gold – beautiful. (I was so inspired I even wrote a little fan-fic that incorporated elements you mention like Lorelei and Jane setting the lead!) But, oh, Jane. A classic ditch you could see coming a mile off. I would have thought Lisbon would have upped her game, given the stakes, but I let it go because it gave us such a beautiful moment. I think it was Estatica who mentioned the “More Than Words” aspect of their relationship, and that was a perfect example of things said and not said. Truth and lies all mixed up together in this episode (that goes for Lisbon, too). Dammit, Jane!

    I also ended up feeling a bit sorry for Haffner, to be honest. He looked crestfallen to think that his crush thinks he’s a serial murderer! Although exonerating him here may still be a double bluff. Did anyone notice that Stiles doesn’t push his sleeve up all the way?

    Speaking of Stiles, a few points:

    He calls Jane “dear boy”, which Jane pointedly refutes by responding, “I’m not your boy”. Linked with the “apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree” remark from the other week, and we’ve got ourselves a couple of references to fatherhood. Just sayin’! Also, in the Tyger Tyger poem, there’s a line that reads: “In what immortal hand or *eye*…” Eyes, people, eyes! Haha!

    Loved Violet’s idea about the three dots representing the three arms of law enforcement. Could it also symbolise the Holy (or Unholy) Trinity?

    I loved the fact that the team has been allowed to enter the hallowed sanctum aka Jane’s attic.

    And lastly (for now, before someone starts me off again – sorry, I don’t participate on any other sites, so you guys are like my only people to chatter at!): was that Max Winter’s gun??

    *Please post, please post, please post*

  • Rose UK

    Just to clarify (omg, I can’t shut up): the Unholy Trinity would be Satan, the Antichrist (the beast) and the False Prophet whom we’ve been discussing from Revelations. Their counterpart would be the Father (hence the father references), the Son (also known as the Lamb of God), and the Holy Spirit.

  • Elizabeth Haysmont

    I enjoy reading your reviews. They’re always a fresh perspective, even for things I don’t agree with.

    Minor points on the above: Lisbon didn’t enter the house; she couldn’t get into the house through the front door, so she went around the side of the house. Also, in Red Listed, Jane didn’t say he didn’t share the list; he said “I’ve never said these names out loud to anyone.” Lisbon got the names by watching the Martins video.

    Looking forward to your take on Great Red Dragon!

  • anomalycommenter

    What a wonderful review Violet, one of the best ones! 🙂 I have to find the time to read it 2 or 3 times again to understand the points you made!

    @ Rose UK: Great comment! 🙂 By “eye” Are you referring to the Visualize logo? (CBS logo is so fishy!) And yes, that looks like the gun Max Winter gave Jane, but he used that gun before to kill Cater, so I don’t know if he could have that gun back in his possession or not?

    Just some quick notes:

    Was FBI after Stiles because of the cold case of Timothy Farrogate (The staged drunken driver had an accident!)

    Just like flowers we now have trees: Pine, Oak (Napa Valley Sheriff Blue Oak Substation),Cedar (Street in Malubu).And yet another coincidence: 1309 Cedar Street (Malibu) as opposed to 1309 Orchid Lane (in ‘There Will Be Blood’)! Also Jane picked up the shotgun at a No. 3, a big number 4 as Rose UK Mentioned is printed on the attic door which camera focused on when Jane and Lisbon left the attic, and a big number 5 was behind Smith in the murder site where he mentioned his fear of heights.

    Several times we saw the sign of “MALIBU *BLUFFS*” on the road side.

    Military-stile rifle (M16 or similar) in the hand of Sheriff. So was the bombing his work or Jane’s work?

    Thursday is actually Thor’s-day!

    In her meeting with Haffner, when the waitress comes to their table, Lisbon curiously looks at her and at a used plate that may have contained some “half eaten food” on the table across theirs or to someone sitting behind the camera!

    Who sent the note to Stiles? Cooper?

    Silver haired man in the Ecuadorian consulate! Sounds familiar? 🙂

  • KM

    This is a lovely and through review, Violet. I so wish that this episode was not prempted last week. Hopefully, the US will get it aired this Sunday.

    I think the emotional punch of the sunset scene sticks with me most. Lisbon’s giddy, shy, and tear filled eyes. (180 degrees from last season on Orchid St.) The intensity of the hug. As if Jane was memorizing all of her into his memory palace. Lastly, his tears as he drove off and her face as she was abandoned. It was such a Jane moment. I think he was being honest, but he also used it to play her heart for his purpose. She knows he is a showman, and that the hug was his opportunity to take her phone. Again he is secretive and controlling, sending mixed messages. I don’t doubt he did it to protect her physically, but also from the anguish of seeing him do what he planned. He also knows if a soul on earth could alter his plans it would be hers, in my opinion. The aftermath will be interesting. For a second their masks fell, and they were vulnerable.

    I’m not sure if Lisbon was lying to Jane. More likely she was lying to herself or he didn’t want to see her changing who she was. I can only imagine that she was thinking frantically as to how to save Jane from either lifetime imprisonment, the death penalty, or dying. Because, four witnesses to Jane’s killing RJ would not be in Jane’s favor. But, only Jane, RJ & her, then she might be willing to step aside; As she knew of Bosco’s. And, again would Jane want her to witness that? Likely, not. Her knowledge of his actions would be huge enough for Jane to carry. It is heavy load these two will carry for each other, really knowing both the best and the worst.

    Nice work with the Bible verses. Cheers!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Ok! Got this just now! thanks!

  • zee

    The show started a little too slow and deliberate pacing with overused tricks just to get the suspects to show the tattoo. I have the same pet peeve as Violet, mentioning the pivotal final clue that cheapens the trick, however it has a compensated ending with a bang……then the credits starts rolling….whaa? :O

    *One thing we know for sure is a certain consultant will survive the explosion*

    And when he does, I’d imagine Lisbon will be hiding her heart further up her sleeve with Jane.

    Violet, I find your referential theories and symbolism far more interesting than this particular episode though…..
    Thank you Violet 🙂

    I really hope they explain the choice of tattoo art. It seems very Braille, or Morse code like.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Hahaha! Why anyone didn’t liked my comment?I was only saying hello before even read this. Have I wrote something wrong? Please, let me know. I’m still learning English.

  • Rose UK

    @ Carla: Not to my mind you haven’t. And your English is coming along well. 😉

    Just occurred to me that the Holy Spirit is represented by a dove (aka a pigeon!). And that the ‘Father’ in Christianity is also known as the ‘Creator’, making a very neat reference to the Creator in Blake’s poem.

    @ Anomaly: You made me laugh just then.

  • mosquitoinuk

    Thank you Violet for this review!

    I am personally a bit crestfallen, not necessarily for the Jisbon-Jane deception, but for the set up of ‘who’s RJ’ situation. I agree with you entirely in that they seemed to have planted this last clue (3 dots) as the only one that matters. We had clues from many people before, it would have been great to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I somewhat sensed this and we were very critical in this blog in general of the moment where our PJ had his ‘AHA!’ moment and decided that RJ killed the PI for example. I knew that they would have to resort to a healthy dose of ‘deus ex machina’ to solve this mystery but they could have done a better job. Really. The field was wide open with those 7 suspects and their clever set up of pointing towards seven different targets gave a large number of interesting possibilities and combinations to resolve this appropriately. It seems to me that by trying to resolve RJ and move on quickly onto other, greater and interesting things but they are moving too fast and cutting corners. I’m ever so sorry to be critical if you enjoyed this episode but I can’t bring myself to. It doesn’t do justice to a show that has had great dialog and clever storylines almost consistently for 6 years now. Sighs. I’ll recover.

    About the symbolism: Violet, you’ve done such a great job in this respect! I always though that the 3 dots were a reference to the Holly Trinity and also a triumvirat. It could be that even amongst those 3 people, two of them don’t know who RJ is! But I think this is a bit farfetched: they are all clever and shrewd, they know since they’ve been working together for long and we know RJ has friends in the CBI and the FBI (and possibly, the police…but why Napa?) anyhow.

    However, I am not totally convinced by the ‘RJ is many’. We’ve had clear indication that there is a special relationship between RJ and PJ. A relationship that is very intimate in its nature…’a kind of love’ according to Brett Styles. This hints at one and only ringleader who has already a twisted relationship with Jane. The only one that fits that description in Styles. Oh well, let’s see if we can be genuinely surprised and not dissapointed.

    Ready for the Dragon!

  • Carla Oliveira

    I got so happy to have this review of this amazing episode to read! Thank you, Violet! I had to express myself on it.
    I had that pet peeves too. And I hope they clarify why RJ took Lisbon and didn’t kill her too.
    I think that the Sherriff fit in the clues as well in this episode and remembering him in previous ones. He gets along well with Jane all the time. He is calm, pleasant, willing to help Jane. I’m torn up between him and Bertram.
    Now the #JisbonSunsetHug scene: That scene was for us, viewers. For us to be sure about their feelings; and I was. They love each other. I saw how tight he squeezed her, as storing that moment, her smell, her touch; he was sad; too much. And she was so happy realizing he loved her. She couldn’t contain herself. When he said he has a surprise and got in the car I knew it was to leave her. It was heartbreaking! He look at her before get in, storing her image once more.
    I even laughed because I knew it wasn’t his evil; he had to do that, I knew. But when I saw his expression: he was crying. So I couldn’t find that funny anymore.
    I’m sure she understood why he did that. She knows him long and well enough. He was planning commit murder. She knew all along he didn’t want her there. He is not heartless. He doesn’t want her or the team to be complicit of murder or try to stop him. He doesn’t want to be stopped. Because of this he didn’t allowed himself to act on his feelings. He blames it on himself, so he thinks killing RJ will redeem him, he thinks he doesn’t deserve her or love and happiness at all. He is punishing himself. He does love her. I’m sure now more than ever. But I’m afraid things will turn out badly by him killing RJ if he is going to do so. If he kill RJ he will be miserable as he is now or even more than now. But I hope he get over it.

    Please,guys, if I commit English mistakes let me know. It will be fine to me get better. I won’t be offended.

  • Rose UK

    Carla, if you don’t mind sharing an email address or something on here, I will quickly correct your text and send it back to you… I’m a language learner too, so I know how you feel! PS I agree with pretty much everything you just said. 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    Ok, @Rose, thanks. My e-mail:

  • chill

    I’m still of a mind that the three dots may have a slightly different meaning — perhaps not.

    As to the comments of the rushed nature of the episode — that’s my biggest problem with the US television format. This one probably needed another 5 or so minutes to get scenes in.

    “And lastly (for now, before someone starts me off again – sorry, I don’t participate on any other sites, so you guys are like my only people to chatter at!): was that Max Winter’s gun??”

    yes, i believe you are correct, rose, excellent catch. that is max’s gun. nice touch.

    also, it was interesting that the white orchids were there in the van with stiles.

    and, yes, the “blood” scene with stiles was creepy. the face painting especially so, and certainly strongly hints that whomever (likely) killed Partridge and tasered Lisbon has close ties with Visualize.

    “genial oaf” — heh.

  • Cece

    For anyone who wants to hold hands and sing Kumbaya about what a beautiful Jane/Lisbon moment the beach scene was, you’d best stop reading now.

    That was far and away the most cruel thing Jane has ever done in the course of show and, yes, I am including the several occasions he’s murdered people. To use Lisbon’s love for him, especially given her personal history and difficulty with intimacy, to turn her into a mark and ditch her is beyond disgusting. So what if he meant every word he said to her? Does he honestly think she’ll allow herself to believe it after he ditched her? She probably feels like a total chump and the biggest sucker on earth. It would’ve been less cruel if he hadn’t said anything and found another way to ditch her.

    “The fact that he wants to kill RJ and make peace with his past doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about her”

    No, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t care her. It does mean he cares revenge more than his relationship with Lisbon, at least in this moment. Right now, for Jane, Revenge > Lisbon. Jane’s ego still rules for him.

    “Which brings the question: is he only tricking her in order not to be stopped from killing RJ? Or does he also want to protect her from the danger?”

    I can’t get behind Jane’s actions being about Lisbon’s safety. Maybe that’s what Jane tells himself to justify his actions, but all I saw this episode was Jane trying to keep his revenge safe from Lisbon, not Jane trying to keep Lisbon safe from Red John. Is RJ really such a danger to Lisbon or are Jane’s revenge plans a danger to Lisbon? The latter is 100% on Jane.

    While part of me admires the writers’ bravery by having Jane do something so unbelievably despicable, they’ve dug themselves quite a hole. Spoilers have given me shreds of hope that they will do right by what they’ve done and the characters and not gloss over what’s happened, but it’s going to take stellar writing and finesse for them to get Jane and Lisbon together in a way that is believable. We’ll see. This episode may have been the final nail in the coffin for Jane and Lisbon as a couple for me. Ugh. I need to go back and watch some episodes from season four.

    @Rose UK, I think that was Max Winter’s gun. At least I thought the case looked the same.

    @mosquitoinuk @Violet ITA about how poorly written the RJ arc has been this season. The whole PI/tattoo nonsense of last week still makes me roll my eyes. While I may have stopped caring about RJ and just want it done with, I know it has been a huge letdown for many fans.

    Let’s end this total downer of a post on a positive note- the one bit of this episode that made me happy, actually cackle with glee. “Oh, don’t tell me you married that genial oaf.” Bwah haha ha ha! Oh, Bret, I don’t care if you are Red John, I will love your snarky ass forever for that.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Cece: oh sister, I’m in the ‘Jane’s a jerk’ bandwagon with you on this one all the way. I knew he would do something like this, but it was triple cruel of him to *use* Lisbon’s feelings to trick her. We’ve reached new lows here. That man is well beyond being a jerk and just like you, I cannot see how they’ll bring them together, ever (if they ever come together). I sincerely hope that Lisbon is not only worried about him, I hope for her own mental sanity that she’s disgusted by what he’s done and absolutely livid.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Cece wrote: « That was far and away the most cruel thing Jane has ever done in the course of show and, yes, I am including the several occasions he’s murdered people. To use Lisbon’s love for him, especially given her personal history and difficulty with intimacy, to turn her into a mark and ditch her is beyond disgusting. So what if he meant every word he said to her? Does he honestly think she’ll allow herself to believe it after he ditched her? She probably feels like a total chump and the biggest sucker on earth. It would’ve been less cruel if he hadn’t said anything and found another way to ditch her. »

    Yes, it was very cruel of him, no doubt about it. It was also despicable and a huge breach of trust, in more ways than one: he used everything he knew about her to trick her, her insecurity and embarrassment towards anything personal, her trust in him as a partner and a friend, those feelings she never allowed herself to acknowledge in front of him… He knew her so well because she had let him in and he used that against her. Yet, it was to be expected: she also was telling an untruth in trying to convince him (or herself), that she would go with his plan until the very end. At this point, if he hadn’t tricked her, *she* would have tricked him into letting go of his revenge. Because, there is no way, as KM pointed out, that she would have let him “throw [his] life away” by getting arrested or killed: either she would have stopped him, or far, far worse, there is that slight possibility that she would have done it herself. She’s selfless, courageous, loving and self-sacrificing enough to shoot RJ for him under a false pretext in the hopes of saving his life, his freedom and his soul IMHO…
    Anyway, even if I’m wrong, why would Jane have spared her feelings? I mean, the more I think about it, the more I realize that either he would end up dead, or a murderer (arrested or in the lam). In any case, she would be off limits: she wouldn’t, couldn’t take him back. By acting this horribly, I wonder how far he thought ahead: he did allow them a beautiful moment of happiness, even if it is very selfish, before making her probably very angry at him. Therefore, her rage against him, her disappointment and her crushing doubts that it was all a lie -not just what happened in the sunset, but everything he did to make her think he cared- might fuel her to stand for herself and hopefully encourage her to forget him as someone who was not worthy of her affection. Could have Jane been following this line of reasoning and was he helping her cut him off her life? If so, yes, he was protecting her: from RJ and from himself. At least, that’s what I wonder when I watch their scenes, especially the clipped way he ended the phone call. Obviously he didn’t want to be distracted or delayed in his preparations, but if he was only getting her out of the way, wouldn’t he have added something before hanging up on her, instead of his dismissive “I’m sorry” and “I’m gonna be OK”? An emotional declaration, like “you know I have to do this”, “I love you”, “stay safe, Teresa” or anything? I mean, he had to know that if something was to happen to him, his last words to her would be a simple “bye, Lisbon”. Not even her first name. So different from the emotional scene he offered her before… If she thought what they had had been real, she would waste her life away pinning for him like she did when he had left for Vegas. If she hated him, not so much… He had no real need for coldness at this point otherwise.

    I won’t take it the wrong way if you disagree, still: I’m aware it could very well be my twisted mind deceiving me. 😛
    Thanks for your comment, Cece! 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Rose: thank you very much! You’re very kind! 🙂 And I love, love, love the symbolism of the Holy vs. Unholy Trinity and the allusion to fathers. Very deep and really well thought! 🙂

    Also thanks for mentioning that Stiles didn’t push his sleeve up all the way. It seemed very suspicious at the time (it looked like he was buying some time), but the others’ tattoo was so obviously on their shoulder instead of their arm that I dismissed it as being an effort to add more suspense… Now I wonder if he hadn’t wanted to hide something. And, yes, that may be only paranoia on my part…

  • rita

    Violet, thank you for a great review, I have enjoyed reading all the different points you have mentioned.

    I am afraid, I am singing Kumbaya very loudly. I loved the sunset scene, and felt that Jane needed to keep Lisbon far away from his coming confrontation…he can see that RJ has an unhealthy obsession with her…..the face painting, and the request for her head via Lorelei (plus in my mind the similarities between the two women) I guess he couldn’t come up with another plan in the time allowed. To me it was obvious that he meant every word he said, and at the end there was that slight hesitation while he looked back at her, as if to keep that memory……but I guess we all see these things differently.

    Something I noticed….(I have watched many times now and I am sure that I am right.) when Lisbon is walking along the road in the dark, the first car that passes, the one that DOESN’T stop, I am sure it is Ray Hafner’s, it was certainly a Mercedes, and they let the camera linger on his car when he went to speak with Lisbon earlier. If it WAS his car, he must have arrived at the house earlier than he appeared to, and when Jane went up to THE bedroom to psych himself up, Hafner would have had time to plant the bomb (perhaps for distraction??) Also, when Jane moves the ones with the spots to the side of the room, he has his back to Hafner and Stiles….one of them could have retrieved one of the guns on the floor, it may not have been the shot gun at all that went off (of course someone else may be able to tell if it was the sound of a shotgun rather than a hand gun)….some how I am very suspicious of those two, and I was never really convinced that RJ HAD killed the PI.

    It also occurred to me that in Strawberrys and Cream, Timothy Carter (playing the part of RJ) said he wanted to retire…an odd thing to do so suddenly….if it was Stiles who was RJ, then he MAY have found out about his illness….that is of course if in fact he IS ill!!

    Enjoying reading all the comments, there are some very insightful commentators.

  • Taissa

    The reviews here just keep getting better and better! Thanks for this excellent review, Violet.
    (And @RoseUK, I love your comments and observations, It’s almost like a complementary review! :D)

    So I wasn’t the only one who remembered Max Winter’s gun :D! When I saw it, it made me smile a little, I’ve always wondered about it’s whereabouts.

    The van Stiles used to escape reminded me of a funeral, him all dressed in white, surrounded by flowers. Oh, and the scene with the weird ritual, when he “painted” the girl’s face with blood I thought he was going to paint a smiley on her face! I was like “OMG He’s RJl!!” and after the scene ended I was like “I’m so dumb…”.

    About the sunset scene, I agree with Violet on this one. I think he did it to protect her from RJ, from the explosion (if he planed that too), and from himself in case he is arrested she would hate him enough to forget about him and move on. Now I’m very interested to see how their relationship will be from now on. I didn’t want to admit it but I think I’ve become a shipper…

    For the next episodes, I think Jane was rushing too much into conclusions and didn’t stop to think at all. I think the dead PI had nothing to do with RJ and he screwed this up. Aaaand, Heller said that the last scene sequence in the premiere had a very important clue about RJ but that we would not realise what it was at first. We have 7 episodes now to analise, we all thought it was the pigeons ( at least I did), but what if it was the red painting on Lisbon’s face? What if Stiles is RJ and he was doing a ritual on Lisbon? I don’t really think Stiles is RJ, right now I’m not sure about any of them.

    Sorry in advance for any grammar mistakes and typos, I’m trying to eat and type the same time…I’m not very good at that!

  • anomalycommenter

    @Rose UK: My pleasure! 🙂 Also everybody’s points under this review and the last were amazing, especially the thoughts of @windsparrow and @Cece about Haffner’s line of work! 🙂 Also what @rita mentioned about his car is brilliant, but I’m afraid that they are different models, same make and color and very similar designs, but have discernible differences as I closely checked the screen shots, yet it can be a production issue and they might have indeed intended it to be Haffner’s and maybe that was the source of Lisbon’s 100% confidence in Jane being under grave danger! 🙂

    Well, I know absolutely nothing about The Bible, but inspired by what Violet stated in her amazing review above a simple search led me to some interesting results. I could be completely wrong and apologize in advance as I know that religious texts can be interpreted in different ways, so if I’m wrong please correct me:

    If you remember the episode 4×23, ’Red Rover, Red Rover’ there was a club named ’19:24’, which under the pretence of initiating the victim, the recently killed Benjamin Marx lured him into a trap, and which is apparently named after ‘Matthew 19:24’: ”Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” But if you search for ’19:24’ just as Violet stated in the review above, although I thinks a little mistake happened above, as it is apparently in Genesis 19:24 and not 19:23, you find: “Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire” which as she said clearly refers to the title of this episode, and also to what happened to Marx’s face! Something that makes me believe this is not just a coincidence is that the director of both of these episodes is the same person.

    And that brings me to the other coincidence I talked about in my previous comment: 1309 Orchid Lane in ‘There Will Be Blood’ and 1309 Cedar Street in this episode. As a first guess if we consider ‘Genesis 13:9’: “Is not the whole land before you? Let’s part company. If you go to the left, I’ll go to the right; if you go to the right, I’ll go to the left.” And in ‘Matthew 13:9’: “Anyone who has ears should listen!” Also guess what, these two episodes have a writer in common! Well, in the first instance Lorelei told Jane that their paths are separate and parted from him, and in the second, Jane parted from Lisbon. Also we have the imagery of that entrance road to Jane’s family house branching from the main road. And as to listening to sounds, I mentioned back in ‘There Will Be Blood’ review the disproportionate times we heard, and not necessarily seen, the sounds of locks and keys and doors. And in this episode we are wondering whose voice, and which gun, was it when we heard the gun shot!

  • chill

    taissa, very nice comments. don’t be hard on yourself about Stiles, though — the way he did the vertical blood over the eyes was, I think, certainly on purpose. But Jane rushing and such — yes, he is losing his calm, detached demeanor.

    rita, i believe you have a good find on the first car Lisbon tries to stop. I’m not 100% sure but the front lights are very similar — we just don’t see if Haffner’s car is a 4 door or not. That’s a good catch as every other car in that sequence is a Chevy — I didn’t think there were that many Chevy’s in Malibu 🙂

    Ah, and the sunset scene. There are different ways to interpret to be sure. I don’t think it’s something that can’t be overcome because the sentiments are real. But there will be payment for leaving her there.

    It’s probably a little over-the-top for the tone of the next two episodes, but I figure some would get some satisfaction if the intro to 6×07 finished like this:

    [Lisbon, after frantically searching the guest house, finds Jane covered in rubble. He then moves, and with some effort, picks himself off the floor.]

    Lisbon: Jane, what happened? Are you OK?
    Jane: I’m fine. Things didn’t go as planned, but we’re making progress.
    By the way, how did you get here?
    Lisbon: (Punches Jane in the nose.)
    [Cut to intro music/graphics]

  • Rose UK

    Thanks very much, Violet and Taissa, I really appreciate your comments!

    @ CHill: Haha! That scene might indeed soothe some ruffled feathers.

    @ Rita: That is VERY interesting about the car; I would never have thought to pay it any attention. This calls for a re-watch!

    @ Anomaly: Yes, I was referring to the logo – sorry, got carried away and forgot to make that clear. 😉 As to your other points, I agree that the word “bluffs” was a nice touch and I love your Thor-sday reference!

    I guess I’m mostly with Violet, Taissa, Rita and others on the sunset scene. My personal opinion is that running off to Vegas was the cruellest thing Jane has ever done to Lisbon – I mean, that was six whole months of leaving her to fret and worry with nary a thought as to how it might affect her. Even if there was no thought of love at the time, he still must have known how deeply she cared for him. It was a purely selfish action, for purely selfish reasons, whereas this time, there is also an aspect of ‘saving’ her (as people have said) – and this time, tellingly, it really pained him. There are lots of undercurrents happening in the sequence, and I think the problem is trying to untangle them all into separate threads. Personally, I think – I hope – that Lisbon knows that he was telling the truth. It’s been established previously that she can now tell when he’s lying, and I think that his sincerity is what really disarmed her and knocked her off her game. I don’t necessarily think that he was using her feelings for him to manipulate her *as such* (though there are most certainly strong elements of that); more so that he was essentially saying his goodbyes to her – and he gave her the truth because she deserved to hear it and he wanted her to know it in case he could never tell her again. It was just extremely unfortunate, horrible, and deeply, deeply wounding, that it also happened to be the *one* thing that allowed him to leave her behind. Which was what he knew all along. That’s what so heartbreaking. (Or maybe I’m just naïve!!! I mean, I agree it was a horrible thing to do, but I consider it tragic more than anything.)

    Cece said: “It does mean he cares revenge more than his relationship with Lisbon, at least in this moment” – I think that’s true… up to a point. Which, again, is what’s so damn tragic! This is a man who has had tunnel vision for 10 years – he has never once wavered from his stated aim, and he’s always been forthright about it. And now he’s so, so close… And I think he’s very conflicted about it – herein lies the crux of the matter. I think that a large part of him wants to finish the job, to do what he set out to do, but he is acutely aware that if Lisbon is with him, he might very well choose her. Just like KM said. So as well as keeping her out of danger, as well as protecting her from the dead-end that he considers himself to be, I think he’s also worried that this angel on his shoulder will succeed at her job! When he went into his daughter’s room, it took him a while before he looked at the smiley – the last thing he did. And when he did that, it was like he used it to strengthen his resolve and steel himself for the end. Because before that, he did *not* look as if he wanted to be there. It all remains to be seen, but I suspect – again, I *hope* – that if he had to choose between Lisbon and RJ, he would choose her. God, I’m probably going to be dead wrong now!!!!

    Basically, at the moment, the saying “It’s always darkest before the dawn” springs to mind. 😉

    Whew, that came out longer than I intended!

  • Rose UK

    Given that my essay on J & L is in moderation, lol, here’s another quick thought:

    We learn in this episode that Haffner takes his coffee black. And once again we see Smith taking his with cream and sugar. Just interesting, given that Kirkland had those three types of coffee in the park. Maybe the black coffee was for Haffner?

    @ Mosquito: Luckily I possess the gift of glossing over plot points (!), but I’m still hoping that the writers will somehow manage to weave in all the other clues as to RJ’s identity…

  • Kristen

    Very nice review! Since I am from Germany I can’t always watch the whole episode and your reviews keep me up to date. I really appreciate all the work you do (and I am sorry for all the language mistakes).
    By the way, I love the comments nearly as much as the review… such a great fandom 🙂
    Anyways, I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks that Janes behaviour was absolutly cruel. I used to be a fan of these two but I don’t like how he has always the upper hand. Like mentioned in the review, he didn’t even open her car door! I know this is just a random thing but somehow it is a symbolism for their relationship: he is the leader and she is naive and trusting.
    I don’t think he was protecting her from the upcoming showdown either. More likely he was making sure he will get his revenge.
    Maybe this has turned into some kind of feminism thing for me but I really want some strenght and assertiveness for Lisbons character…

    I am sorry that I don’t really bring something new to the discussion. Most of what was written earlier fits pretty much with my opinion. I am curious how this whole tyger, tyger thing and the tattoos will fit together in the end.

    I hope the revelation of RJ will be reasonable. I am afraid the writers tried to hard to create a huge ending. At this stage of the story it sounds a little over the top… But I am excited though 😉

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Rose: I can understand you POV and I hope that it is true. I really hope that part of his plan was to keep her safe, also I think someone mentioned that he wouldn’t like for Lisbon to see him murder a man, which is plausible and human. But he is determined to see this through and revenge has been his life for 10 years now. It will be difficult or impossible to know, unless we are explicitly told so, what his motivations are. And even when we get big statements from him, we don’t necessarily believe them. Neither does Lisbon. He’s just too duplicitous.

    About whether or not he’ll kill RJ, let’s remember that he has told Lisbon numerous times that he’ll do it. He made promises to both, Kirkland and Hightower and I am entirely convinced that he will.

    How both him and Lisbon will move on from that (if it ever happens) I don’t know. They are often orthogonal in their convictions about the law and how it is applied to people. In fact, Jane doesn’t really care about the law, he acts based upon his own set of values and a sense of justice that is his own. I personally can’t see how Lisbon can deal with that. There is hope as long as he doesn’t kill RJ. If he does and he does it in cold blood, although we could in principle understand his motivation, it is reprehensible if you look at it from Lisbon’s POV.

    However, now that I’ve written all this, I was always surprised at how easily Lisbon brushed off the little fact that Jane killed Carter in that mall, in cold blood. I quite never understood her compliance. I would have expected much more personal angst. I can understand that it was important to move things forward plotwise, but this was incomprehensible for me.

    Let’s see how badly he behaves in what is left and what Lisbon can or cannot live with!

  • Rose UK

    @ Mosquito: Funnily enough, I do actually agree with much of what you just said! I suppose my opinions come from the fact that I’ve always wanted to believe that Jane would choose *not* to kill RJ, despite all his declarations to the contrary, because I’ve always viewed the series primarily as a redemption story. And I don’t see any redemption for him in the act of cold-blooded murder. Fiction is crammed with characters thinking that they want something (or someone), achieving this ‘goal’, and then realising to their horror that they actually wanted something different all along. I don’t want that for Jane! I’ll be a wreck if he goes through with it, but until then I’ll just keep hoping… 😉

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Rose: I also look at this as a redemption story and I will be utterly devastated if Jane decides to murder RJ. There will be 2 of us 🙂

    I had the same problem with House, the TV show. I kept watching hoping for a better outcome for House; he was also a brilliant jerk with many redeeming qualities (ok, some). However, we were manipulated by the writers into believing that House could change when in fact, he could not. That was the nail in the coffin for that show and I actually lost interest. I didn’t watch the final season at all and did not miss it. The ratings plummeted for the final season by the way.

    I’m not claiming that House = the Mentalist. Not at all. I’m just drawing a parallel between 2 shows about engaging characters that were brilliant (and displayed sort of Sherlock Holmes qualities), had a personal tragedy that changed the way they saw the world and *defined* them, keeping them fighting with their demons (guilt, rage, etc.) but who were also, ultimately, big jerks. We as the audience were invested in House and we wanted to believe he could get his happiness but the truth is that the writers decided he was too far gone; a loveable jerk he could be, he was a jerk nevertheless.

    Do I see some similarities between Jane and House? Definitely. If Jane doesn’t overcome his demons there is no possible redemption. Revenge does not make the story arc more compelling in my opinion. Thrilling perhaps, but it doesn’t really touch my heart.

    Sorry if this post was too long and dark! It is ridiculous to be stressed about a fictional character, but I am, I see Jane going down this path truly determined and I worry I (we) as the audience, won’t be able to sympathise with him/care about him anymore.

    There is always hope though! Fingers crossed he’ll see the light 🙂

  • Cece

    @Violet I see what you’re saying, that Jane was being cruel to be kind. I don’t buy it, but that has to do with my interpretation of Lisbon’s character, which obviously you may disagree with. While what Jane did may be very effective in getting Lisbon to move on from him, it has much bigger ramifications than those on their relationship. If Jane was doing this for Lisbon’s own good, he should want her to be able to move on and hopefully find love with someone else. His actions in F&B, making a mockery of her feelings for him and using them against her in the cruelest fashion possible, especially added on to her preexisting issues with intimacy and trust, make the odds of her opening her heart to anyone else infinitesimal. It was like the psychological warfare method of saying “I don’t want you but I don’t want anyone else to have you either.”

    Now, I don’t believe that if Jane commits murder or dies trying or is on lam or whatever, that Lisbon would gleefully jump back into the dating pool even if the Beach Sunset Mess hadn’t happened. Everything we’ve seen hints that she wasn’t much of a dater pre-Jane either. However there’s always a chance that she could meet someone special and find love. That chance would have been far more likely to occur without the special added layer of damage Jane heaped on her in F&B.

    If Jane found some other way to ditch Lisbon without the emotional warfare and killed RJ and been arrested/gone on the lam/whatever, I think Lisbon would be better off. Without Jane as a regular presence in her life, I think she would talk herself out of any romantic feelings she had for him, given that she was so desperate to pretend they didn’t exist in the first place. In both situations I could see her forcing herself to go out or go on dates and in both scenarios may have one night stands or flings, but in the non-beach ditch scenario she would have a better chance at a real emotional attachment with someone.

    So clearly I’ve thought way too much about hypothetical scenarios involving made-up characters on a tv show:) Obviously, this is all my take on how Lisbon might react in various situations and you may think she’d do something else quite different.

    TL,DR what Jane did to Lisbon on the beach won’t only effect their relationship, it could have far reaching effects on any future relationship Lisbon may have or more likely probably won’t have because of it. Therefore, Jane deserves zero credit as having done some noble thing in order to get Lisbon to move on with her life.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Don’t get me wrong, Cece: I don’t necessarily mean this theory of crushing her feelings to get her to move one wouldn’t have repercussions. It would, obviously, both on her (admittedly limited) capacity to trust anyone in the future and on her self-esteem. But look at the way she reacted during his Vegas stunt: was she better off without him then, when she thought she hadn’t done enough to save him? At least now, after getting past the hurt and humiliation, she would have someone to hate other than herself…
    Moreover, we’re talking about a man who thought that it was a great idea to help her grieve by telling her she was about to die and who constantly tried to protect her job by giving her “deniability” (basically, he didn’t tell her the truth in the hopes that she would be seen as incompetent and weak instead of his accomplice)… Obviously his logic is questionable at best…
    And again, that’s just a theory: I may very well be entirely wrong! 😉

  • Lugenia

    I appreciate your in-depth reviews, Violet. On the Jisbon question, I choose–maybe somewhat willfully–to believe that Jane’s words to Lisbon on the sunset beach were truthful. This is the same man who shot a man once to save Lisbon and refused to leave her to save himself when she had a bomb strapped to her. I see Jane in a context of the loss of Leelee Barlow in the season five finale, when he could not bring himself to hold her infant daughter (as would be canon for him) and well as in his exchanges with Madeline Hightower, a good woman herself. Jane sees RJ less as a human capable of great evil and more of a monster. Thus he needs to be destroyed. This is not the right choice–but it is one that at least two deeply “good” people–in the complex and inconsistent human sense of that term–Sam Bosco (on his deathbed no less) and MH see in the same light.

    I also see that Madeline “sees” what Patrick sees in a way that Lisbon cannot. At the end of the day MH is a mother, and she is driven by the need to protect her children even more than her own life. So she will do that by any means necessary. Patrick cannot protect Charlotte, but in killing RJ he will “give Madeline back her life” and by extension the life of her children.

  • KM

    I think that Jane will kill RJ. I don’t know if it will play out as a hand to hand combat that only one can survive, but I hope so. And, I think we may be putting the character of Lisbon in a box. While it is true that she seems to gravitate towards rules, likely comfort to be found there for her, her character has been revealed to be vaster than “it’s the principle” or “the law”. We have been given examples where, often nudged by Jane, she saw that the greater ethical and more merciful choice was to ignore the law or bend it. Examples include: not putting the girl who killed her abusive jail into the system; manipulating Sarah to not put a boy into the foster system by letting go of the charges against his sister; going after Volker. They have given us at least these three cases and a mention of her doing it in her past with Bosco. Lisbon has more shades of grey. Hence, I think she has reached the point over the course of the decade to realize that the most merciful thing is the death of RJ. It is the most merciful thing for the family of the victims, the potential victims, and to the people of the state of California. I think it is reasonable for her to have reached the conclusion that RJ’s connections would see to it that justice by the law is not a viable option. I guess this is why I don’t think she was lying to Jane, she was serious, just not serious about him killing RJ with four witnesses. And, why she dealt with Carter’s death as she did. (With Carter she accepted the jury’s decision, and with RJ she’ll accept his death as necessary.)

    Going back to the Bible, there is a continued theme throughout both the Old & New that God wants mercy, not sacrifices and compliance to rules.

    Micah 6:8 reads:
    He has showed you, O man, what is good.
    And what does the LORD require of you!
    To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. (NiV)

    In addition the reasons for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is one of contention presently. Some scholars see the true crimes to be a lack of hospitality and mercy. Again we are brought back to the importance of mercy. See the parallel story found in Judges 19. See Ezekiel 16:49. There are other O & N passages in. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Luke…

    I guess the point I’m trying to make is that things are not black and white. That the more merciful choice can oppose the law or rules. And, in biblical allegories mercy triumphs.

    Lastly, I’ll leave you with an extra-canonical quote from the Gospel of Thomas (one of eighteen not included in the Bible) that sticks with me when I think about TM. Warning it is rather obscure.

    Thomas 7
    Jesus said, “Happy (blessed from the Greek makarios) is the lion* that the human will eat, and the lion becomes human. And, cursed is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion will become human.”

    *In other writings in Antiquity the lion often symbolizes feelings of passion and pathos. So, to eat the lion may be to overcome those feelings. Likewise, to be eaten by the lion is to be overcome by them. An interpretation of the clause is one of hope, that though the passions may temporarily dominate the person, ultimately he/she will overcome them when the lion becomes human.

  • KM

    The girl who killed her abusive dad…

  • massimo

    In my opinion Jane was honest when he told Lisbon she was important to him, she wouldn’t otherwise have fallen for the “surprise in the car” trick.

    The Lisbon I saw when Jane drove away wasn’t heartbroken but just terribly concerned for his safety, she knows he told her the truth.

    Maybe she’s heartbroken but not for the alleged betrayal but for being unable to help our modern hero (Jane) through the final stages of the tragedy.

    Whatever Jane will do to Bertrand and the other four won’t have any repercussion on Lisbon, he’s protecting her in case his plan doesn’t work or something goes wrong.

    To my eyes Jane never lied to “Teresa” but sometimes, throughout the series, he gave partial information or acted behind the back of “Agent Lisbon”.

    I think that the words they exchanged on the beach were between Patrick and Teresa, not Jane and Lisbon. He couldn’t lie to Teresa so he had to use the truth to distract her and therefore tricking both Agent Lisbon and Teresa into safety.

    I’m not saying I’m right I’m just writing the way I experienced it and I hope my weird English is making my thoughts understandable to others.

    Considered he’s about to face his enemy for (possibly) the final battle, I found Jane’s actions quite romantic.

    Until Red John’s case is closed there cannot be Patrick and Teresa but only Jane and Lisbon.

    Bring on the next episode!

  • Rose UK

    So many different ideas and perspectives – fascinating!! 😀

    @ KM: “I guess this is why I don’t think she was lying to Jane, she was serious, just not serious about him killing RJ with four witnesses.” ~ It’s all in the wording, imo. We’ve already seen how language can be carefully manipulated (e.g. when Jane said to Kirkland “I didn’t *tell* anyone about the list” or some such, it wasn’t a lie.) Same with Lisbon:

    “Some men, men like Red John, they don’t deserve a trial or jury. They deserve what they have coming to them.”

    This is what I was referring to when I said that everything was a mixture of lies and truth in this episode. I think she means this statement at this point (like you said, she has shades of grey) – but she can mean it without necessarily giving up her previous beliefs. This evil man might not *deserve* justice, but it doesn’t mean she thinks that either she or Jane has the right to decide, for example. She hasn’t compromised herself in any way. I think this mixture is partly why Jane looked so troubled after she’d gone.

    And while I’m on the subject, I suppose *technically* Jane was also correct when he said he had “a surprise” for her….! 😉 (I know, that’s awful. 😉 )

    Justice, vengeance and mercy… It’s been the key question since the start. I just really, really wonder what Heller ultimately wants from his story!

    @ Anomaly: Ooh, that’s very interesting indeed re: divergent paths.

  • Auli

    Have been so busy recently with the rest of the life (why can’t I win lottery so I could just fangirl everyday all the time?!) so could join bit late to the party. What an episode! Bruno Heller and TM writers: I hate you, you SOB’s and totally love you.

    First of all the Jisbon scene: I am totally on the “Jane, you are a bloody asshole” wagon. That was a jerk move even though you could see that PJ was quite heart broken. I really hope that Lisbon punches him in the nose and hopefully kicks him in the groins. The jerk deserves that! Jane’s move was not the only thing that pissed me off in that scene but also the fact that I so knew that would happen even though I hoped to gods that it would not. I knew that Lisbon was lying about letting Jane having his revenge (Lisbon, baby, lying to a man who can read you like an open book, really?!) and I was just thinking different ways how he will sneak away from her. And then the sunset scene came and even though I knew that the SOB would do something bad, it still was a blow in the stomach. I could just see Heller laughing at all the shippers while he went all judo kick to us.

    About the tattoo: I am bit confused about this, am not sure at all but here’s my crazy theory. I think the tattoo is sort of red herring when it comes to RJ because 1. it came so late to the series and 2. it would be way too easy mark to recognize him. However, I think tyger tyger group has it or at least some of them. So this leads following hypotheses about the PI (how the hell did she even see the tattoo) in last episode:
    1. She was hired by RJ and killed by him, which leads that either Smith, McAllister or Bertram is RJ and hence RJ is a big player in tyger tyger group
    2. She was hired by RJ but a minion killed her, which supports that RJ is a big player in the TT group but the TT group do not know his true identity
    4. RJ did not hire her, some TT group member hired her, which means that RJ is not necessarily part of the TT group (anymore)

    The PI thing puzzles me because if RJ is someone with the tattoo, why the hell did they need to hire PI to bug CBI?! Hell, Bertram actually is the BOSS there so he could just easily do it by himself. Even Smith with his all “FBI and CBI are friends” could have just gone there. Unless it’s a ruse within a ruse by RJ to mess up with PJ and with us, the viewers. Well, final point: Haffner is still my RJ suspect n. 1, Bertram n. 2. This show is making my crazy!

  • mosquitoinuk

    @ KM & @Rose: Thank you very much for your insights, they made me think :-).

    Agreed that Lisbon isn’t black & white, far from it! this isn’t what I meant. However, we are talking about someone who not only had a catholic upbringing and strong beliefs (and the fact it has been brought up and made part of her emotional makeup is interesting; it gives Lisbon a firm moral stand as a character) but she is an officer of the law. She also said to Rigsby and Cho when protecting those awful people on Kirklands’ list “we don’t pick and choose” (wildly paraphrasing here), which means: everyone gets the same treatment. This is fundamentally Lisbon. Even with Volker, she could have shot him death but she *decided* to bring him to justice. And I was quite pleased by that actually. Jane hasn’t rubbed on her so much as to change fundamentally who she is (and I think she’s right, by the way). I was hoping that Jane could see Lisbon’s own take on ‘revenge’ and learn a thing or two. We can live in hope I suppose.

    I see Lisbon as the moral compass in the story: when everyone else is duplicitous, deceitful or has at least something to hide she is a straight shooter, someone who, according to Jane is the “most honest person” he knows. She knows how to play games of course but in my opinion she has a strong sense of what is right and wrong and she draws the line quite firmly at murder/assassination/killing in cold blood. I think she can live with the rest just fine but we are talking about *big* stuff here.

    I recognise that we are going to have a different take on this because everything is quite blurry/not quite what it seems and there is an awful lot of smoke and mirrors: that’s one of the things it makes the show interesting. However, I think Lisbon is also there not to counterbalance Jane’s character but to remind us what’s right and wrong.

  • Rose UK

    I couldn’t agree with you more about Lisbon’s character, Mosquito. 🙂 I didn’t mean to suggest that she is coming round to Jane’s way of thinking/acting – only that her deepest personal beliefs are not necessarily in full agreement with her professional ones (and she used this fact to try to trick Jane). I’m with you: I *want* her to stick to her professional values, her code, and I’ll be really disappointed if she doesn’t. She’s such a strong, moral and steady character that it would totally pull the rug out from under me if the writers changed such an integral and innate part of her being. I also think it would throw Jane for a loop, too!

  • mosquitoinuk

    Sorry, I am going to contradict myself possibly up to a certain extent but I see another interpretation to the scene between Lisbon and Jane that did not occur to me before. Please bear with me.

    What if Lisbon actually told Jane the truth: that she has changed her view and people like RJ deserve whatever they get?

    What if Jane actually believed that what she said was true? in that case, he would know that she has capitulated (because of him..?). He looked quite troubled at that point. He even acknowledged that she was honest and would not lie to him. Could that be a possibility?

    Because, then I can actually believe that Jane, realising what this would mean having Lisbon going along with this murder, would be an abomination. I think Jane admires and is touched by Lisbon’s honesty and moral strength. He would surely realise that this is entirely wrong, that this would be soul destroying *for her*. He’s always going to save her right? in more ways than one. Since she is a spiritual person there is the small matter of her beliefs (her soul can we say?) at stake. He might not have a religious faith, but she does and he respects that. He also knows that it is an important part of who she is.

    This fits quite well with Lisbon saying to him “don’t do this, not without me”.

    Although there is the little matter of Lisbon saying “…you are throwing your life away”, which means that she believes, he’s mistaken.

    Let me know what you think!

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Rose: ahhh…but I’ve thought about another (possibly rubbish) interpretation of the scene where they are trying to assess each other (see post above). Was she telling the truth? what do you think?

    You have usually wonderful insights on these scenes, I tend to stick to facts and hypotheses, nuances are not my thing. Scientist by training! :-D. For those of you who are actually (very) good at reading in between the lines and pick up small details…

  • Auli

    Hey guys, about if Lisbon lied or not. Based on the Woodruff’s interview in the Tv Guide, she did.

    You can read Jisbon parts of it here:×06-interview

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Auli: thank you, I read it. It is actually what I was hoping for.

  • Auli

    @Mosquitoinuk: I’m so happy that Lisbon lied. I wouldn’t be happy if after six seasons of her being the voice of moral they would go u-turn in her character.

  • KM

    @mosquitoinuk, Rose, and Auli,

    Thank you for your thoughts. Very thought provoking. And, I saw the article yesterday.

    I still remain inclined to think that Lisbon had a very mixed message in the attic. I do believe that she had every intention of protecting Jane from possible life imprisionment, the death penalty, or death. The lie. I still think that she, has developed an understanding that Dietrich Bonhoeffer could relate to. It is from that place that she will still be able to relate to Jane (and I do believe Jane will kill RJ). The truth. I personally don’t find her any less moral should her character play that way. Nor would I, personally, find that a departure from her character as I think we have been allowed glimpses that she has acted this way before. Just my opinion.

    Thank you again for your thoughts.

  • KM

    I think Lisbon is less the voice of moral, and more the voice of faith. Likely, because Heller has described the character of Lisbon as the voice of faith. Though I did not necessarily see it as faithfulness to laws and rules, but more discernment of the characters of others. She sees the good, and her being calls it forth. Very interesting thoughts.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @KM: This is so incredibly beautiful “she sees the good, and her being calls it forth”. I agree that this is in fact, Lisbon’s behaviour. For me, a moral compass has exactly that connotation, but I can understand that it can have other interpretations.

    Coming from a strong catholic tradition but not necessarily a person of faith myself, my interpretation of Lisbon’s actions are understood in this light. After a life of agnosticism I can understand the interpretation of ‘the faith’ as a personal path that we follow guided by what we perceive to be the light.

    It makes sense that you mentioned that it wouldn’t make Lisbon “less” moral to accept PJ’s murder of RJ (and I, too, believe he’ll kill RJ), I entirely agree. I am no philosopher but I had the opportunity to meet the Bonhoeffer family through work (the descendants of course) and I think you refer to the fact that Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought Biblical concepts guide us but they are to be interpreted as a “responsible involvement in the world” more than anything else.

    I think that Lisbon’s interpretation of the faith is less scholarly than Bonhoeffer’s but it has the same effect. Still, since she considers the act of murder fundamentally wrong, I can’t see how she can deal with the conflict that will appear if PJ kills RJ.

    My two cents anyway! I’m really out of my depth here, let me go back to my hard facts and data! 😉

  • Rose UK

    Ah, so you’re a Mosquito of Science! But don’t do yourself a disservice; I think you’re just as adept at picking up on nuance as anyone here. 🙂 I think your theory is a good one. Jane definitely looked unsettled by Lisbon’s ambiguity – and it’s not often that we see him puzzled. Auli, I haven’t read the article (mainly because I’m such a weirdo about potential spoilers), but I’m glad to know that Lisbon hasn’t changed her entire professional mindset. But like I said, I think she told enough of the truth to plant a seed of doubt in Jane (if only momentarily). And yes, I think that Jane – duplicitous and unreliable as he is – unconsciously depends hugely on Lisbon’s rock-like steadiness and steadfastness. That’s also why I said I thought it would shake his foundations if she did a 180 on him. I agree that he likes her adherence to the law (see the smile he gives a couple of eps ago, when she says, “and that’s the difference between you and me”) so I can totally get on board with the idea of him not wanting to see this code crumble. It would transform his whole idea of her, and I don’t think he would like that.

    @ KM: Interesting point about what Lisbon’s faith means. 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    I tend to agree with KM on this one: she’s not so much an honest person per se or a sticker for rules. Proof of it is that she admitted she was not a goody-two-shoes when she was at a Catholic school, though she never got caught (‘Something’s Rotten in Redmund’). This is probably why she likes Jane even when he misbehaves: were she unambiguously that honest a person, she wouldn’t stand him or his constant lies, period. Now, I’m not saying that she isn’t honest, obviously, just that there’s more to her than just the moral compass aspect she assumed to counterbalance Jane’s influence… like Jane, she has layers: he has characterized her as lies and truth intertwined (‘Black Gold and Red Blood’) and it fits her to a tee. Actually, I think the main difference between them is that they have learnt to deal with their fairly abusive fathers in completely opposite fashions: Jane takes from people (yet he is able to open up to others), while Lisbon gives to people (and uses that to keep them at arms length). This may explain her moral code and her faith: she has to believe in a greater good, in a divine retribution, otherwise her endless willingness to give, to help and save others would be meaningless. Her choosing law enforcement is based on wanting to defend this greater good.
    Now, it ought to have repercussions on the way she reacts to Jane’s obstinate decision to kill RJ: she sees the good in him, whereas he doesn’t. He wants to get revenge as a form of redemption because he failed his family, but Lisbon certainly doesn’t share that perspective, because she never saw him as anything less than a victim for that matter. In her pov, then, he has everything to lose in committing a murder; while for Jane, avenging his loved ones is a probably way to gain some self worth…
    Besides, now that I think of it, it doesn’t really matter if she lied to Jane, or to herself, and to what extent; what really matters here is that Jane believed that she lied. The fact that he was certain of it and his insistence on her moral qualities mean that he *wants* to believe in her integrity. In a way, he idealizes her (the “angry little princess” remark and his comment about wanting a woman “better than him”) and the deep honesty he choses to see in her might be a form of faith too. She’s really a good person but Jane’s willingness to put emphasis on it is also telling us something about him.

    Anyway, the different perspective they have on morals and on Jane’s worth may cause a big problem, because like KM, I believe he will kill his nemesis. In spite of his doubts, that goal is what characterizes him in the show, so the setback if he couldn’t achieve it would be huge for his character… The main progress he made in the course of the years is that now he seems to want to outlive his revenge.
    Still, as soon as he would commit a murder, he would cease to be a victim and I’m not sure she could deal with the change: she was able to find justification in the murder of Carter because Jane was acquitted and because the situation felt different somehow. I don’t really know how to explain it: they were in danger in ‘Strawberry and Cream’, she was wounded, Grace and Hightower were almost killed… Using violence in a violent context feels less wrong than what he’s planning right now. At the time, he was completely alone, at the mercy of the serial killer, therefore his actions might have been constructed as something a bit less terrible than what he’s coldly and calculatingly premeditating now. Now, he is ready to shot a disarmed man, someone who doesn’t present a direct threat. This is worse…Beside they had worked together to catch O’Laughlin, thus the fact that Jane managed to get past them and get his hands on him was caused by circumstances she hadn’t anticipated. The same thing happened in the desert: the team was here as a back-up, he didn’t act alone –even though the gun he hided in the box hints that he wanted to… And knowing now beforehand that he readily ditched them all and she had to stand by while he committed a cold-blooded murder is a different thing altogether than accepting that he took the opportunity when it presented itself…

    (Sorry for not replying to everyone. I am deeply grateful for everyone’s lovely encouragements and the very interesting comments. I’ve been pretty busy but I’ll try to catch up as soon as I can! 🙂 And sorry for the mistakes, I’m tired… )

  • KM

    Thank you Rose and Violet, I appreciate your thoughts, opinions, takes, and interpretations. You so often say things better than I can. Thank you again.

    I think that Lisbon will be okay with Jane killing RJ. At a level she will understand it. And, I do truly think that she has come to the conclusion that justice is best served by the death of RJ. And, at a level she sees RJ’s death as a mercy for the greater good. I truly can see her coming to a Bonhoeffer-like conclusion about RJ. If I was a betting person, then I’d put my money on Jane killing RJ and Lisbon being at a level of peace that she accepts Jane. That is my post RJ prediction. I could be wrong, and that would be okay. After all this is not my story to tell.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ KM, well, time will tell. But I so hope you’re right! (And your thoughts, opinions, takes, and interpretations are very much appreciated too… 😉 )

    @ Elizabeth Haysmont: thank you! 🙂
    Argh, I seemed to recall seeing Lisbon inside the hall of the empty main house. Must have imagined it… And yes, you’re right that Jane didn’t say to Kirkland that he didn’t share the list; I pointed this out in the review for ‘Red Listed’ (if I’m not mistaken), but here I was just trying to get to the point faster. Sorry for the ambiguity! 😛

    @ Zee wrote “*One thing we know for sure is a certain consultant will survive the explosion* And when he does, I’d imagine Lisbon will be hiding her heart further up her sleeve with Jane.”

    You may be right on that one. Now she knows for sure that he knows about her feelings and he used them. Whereas she will forgive him or not, she would have a hard time letting him get as close again anyway… Poor woman.
    Also, the comparison between the tattoo and Morse or Braille is very intriguing. After doing a very quick research, I can’t associate it with anything precise in any of those alphabets, but the idea that the red mark may have a more literal meaning is certainly worth keeping in mind. I would honestly be pretty disappointed if its meaning is not explained at the end…
    Thanks for your lovely comment! 🙂

    @ Mosquitoinuk wrote: «However, I am not totally convinced by the ‘RJ is many’. We’ve had clear indication that there is a special relationship between RJ and PJ. A relationship that is very intimate in its nature…’a kind of love’ according to Brett Styles. This hints at one and only ringleader who has already a twisted relationship with Jane. The only one that fits that description in Styles. »

    Those might be two different things, imho: that some people decide to create a secrete organization – which might function as a kind of sect- in order to commit crimes and/or to achieve unknown goals doesn’t mean that one of their members couldn’t take a special twisted liking to Jane. Rebecca and Lorelei had told him that RJ –one man- talked about Jane, so there is indeed a particular killer responsible for the death of Angela and Charlotte. Yet, he could also be part of something bigger, like other psychopaths like Carter, Hardy and Todd Johnson did (remember, Todd told Jane that RJ’s plan will blow his mind, when he confronted him). Now, the big question is: is RJ one serial killer among others in the organization; or is the whole organization functioning under the façade of “RJ”? If the latter is the case, Jane’s nemesis is the one who was sent to his family. But someone, I doubt it… Or there also the more complicated possibility that “RJ” is the name taken by the three bosses of the organization (three men/three dots). Anyway, those theories aren’t not necessarily in opposition with the “form of love” the murderer of his family devotes to Jane.
    (Great comment, thanks for sharing! 🙂 )

    @ Carla: thanks a lot for your enthusiasm! I’m very touched! 🙂
    I’m torn between the sheriff and Bertram too, for the same reasons than you, Carla: McAllister seems to want to get along with Jane. He’s rather eager to interact with him. On the other hand, Bertram has been my prime suspect for some time now (since he talked about the “rope” in ‘Strawberry and Cream’… that word alone planted the suggestion in Jane’s mind that the mole was Craig, hence pushing him towards Carter and the trap RJ set to get rid of the consultant. If Bertram is RJ, he would have been two steps ahead of Jane then, just like Jane thought *he* was.)
    I would be a bit annoyed if RJ was Stiles, because he’s too old to fit the farm clue and above all because Jane is much younger than him and Bret is ill. Physically speaking, the confrontation would be far less suspenseful and intense than if Jane faces someone who might be able to defeat him. For me, he has to be Jane’s equal concerning physical capacities. Carter was perfect in that respect (among many others)…

    @ C Hill: oh yes, 5-10 minutes longer would have been the perfect format! Lol! And thanks for mentioning the “genial oaf”, I regretted not having more time to add the best lines section! 🙂

    @ Rita: Haffner car, huh? That would be interesting, to say the least… I can totally see him setting the bomb, too… Thanks for sharing (and for your kind words)!

    @Taissa wrote:“For the next episodes, I think Jane was rushing too much into conclusions and didn’t stop to think at all. I think the dead PI had nothing to do with RJ and he screwed this up.”
    You expressed it better than I could. I agree with everything your said. And thank you very much for the compliment, Taissa, I found your words really heartwarming… 😀

    @ Anomaly: I appreciate very much your kind words! And very, very interesting take on the trees and the numbers. This certainly is worth some digging… Just to be sure, is 1309 Cedar Street (Malibu) the address of the Jane family residence? I don’t recall seeing any mention on the house… But it would be pretty telling if it is, for sure!
    Thanks again, Anomaly! Your comments are really thought provoking!

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Kristen wrote: “Maybe this has turned into some kind of feminism thing for me but I really want some strenght and assertiveness for Lisbons character…”

    I can only agree on that: the woman should have kicked, punched and kicked him again a long time ago for that matter…
    Thanks for you comment and your support! 🙂

    @ Lugenia wrote: “Jane sees RJ less as a human capable of great evil and more of a monster. Thus he needs to be destroyed. This is not the right choice–but it is one that at least two deeply “good” people–in the complex and inconsistent human sense of that term–Sam Bosco (on his deathbed no less) and MH see in the same light.”

    Very true. And Kirkland also agreed to that: that makes three people, with variable degrees of morality, who encouraged Jane not to vary… It’s interesting that the same number of people had pushed Jane to confide in Lisbon during season 3, before the first real chance he got at killing his nemesis in ‘Strawberry and Cream’: there were Minelli, that man whose wife was ill in ‘Bloodstream’ and Hightower again… And Jane followed their advices up to a point, but that was when he really started opening up to Lisbon…

    Also, you wrote “I also see that Madeline “sees” what Patrick sees in a way that Lisbon cannot. At the end of the day MH is a mother, and she is driven by the need to protect her children even more than her own life. So she will do that by any means necessary. Patrick cannot protect Charlotte, but in killing RJ he will “give Madeline back her life” and by extension the life of her children.”

    You’re very right again: Lisbon knows that, but she’s above all determined to save Jane… It’s a rather tragic situation… (Thanks for your great thoughts!)

    @ Auli: very good questions about the PI and the tattoo… Things are pretty confusing and I too hope we’re going to get a really good explanation. Thanks for sharing (both your ideas and the link for the interview)! 🙂

  • Cece

    @mosquitoinuk your posts have been absolutely on fire. Just imagine after each one I wrote, “This x1000”. I especially liked the House post. The comparison was very apt, IMHO. I also really agree with the following:

    “[Lisbon] knows how to play games of course but in my opinion she has a strong sense of what is right and wrong and she draws the line quite firmly at murder/assassination/killing in cold blood. I think she can live with the rest just fine but we are talking about *big* stuff here.”

    Yes. Just brilliantly put. I don’t think anyone here has claimed that Lisbon has ever been a 110% stickler for the rules. What Lisbon does have is a sense of proportion. And thank you for the much needed reminder that Lisbon could have justifiably killed Volker free and clear but she chose not to do so.

    I’m with you and @Rose UK in that I really would like for Jane not to kill RJ. For me it’s about Jane’s growth or lack thereof. Jane put his ego before his family a decade ago by refusing to give up the psychic business. Now it looks as if he’s going to do the exact same thing by putting his need for revenge* before Lisbon. He’s willing to break her heart and throw away the possibility of a wonderful life to do it. After all he’s been through Jane still can’t check his ego at the door and put his loved ones first. Jane murdering RJ would show he’s learned nothing from any of this with the exception of don’t pretend to be psychic.

    *This isn’t about RJ needing to die because no jail could hold him or because he’s a danger to Lisbon. Were that the case then Jane would have wished Lorelei and Kirkland the best of luck and told them to call him if they needed help. It’s not about his family either. Devil’s Cherry made that quite clear, with “Charlotte” saying, “We don’t give a damn about Red John.” Jane’s need to murder RJ in cold blood is about Jane’s ego pure and simple.

  • Cece

    @Auli said, “I’m so happy that Lisbon lied. I wouldn’t be happy if after six seasons of her being the voice of moral they would go u-turn in her character.”

    Yup, absolutely. I’m glad the writers made Jane seem unsure, at least to start with, of whether or not she was telling the truth. It was refreshing to see. Of course she can still flummox Jane from time to time, as the hammer in her desk proved. Not to say that she’s a good liar, but recently the writers have taken the whole “Lisbon cannot tell a lie” thing to ridiculous lengths. I have no doubt that Jane (or RJ) can read her like a book most of the time, but for all the regular folk her poker face must be decent enough since she’s supposed to be an at the least serviceable poker player. Not to mention that the idea that she would have gotten as far as she has in her career without being able to put one over on a suspect is laughable.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @cece: thank you very much for your kind words 🙂 . It is interesting that you brought up the poker theme and I agree with you: Lisbon was a poker partner with the ‘great and the mighty’ because it of course serviced the Volker storyline as she took advantage of her connections (the judge, for example) but it was also a way for us to know that she can pretend quite well, thank you very much. In fact, Bertram mentions to Kirkland that “all good detectives keep their cards close to their chest” (or similar) which means that he doesn’t really knows where he stands with her. Not bad for a bad liar, huh? 🙂

    I personally take what Jane says with a pinch of salt, he’s after all, a mentalist extraordinaire and a consummate liar!

  • Rose

    Gosh, is there *any* way the writers will be able to come up with a resolution that somehow satisfies all our criteria?! Hm, doubtful. 😉

    Although I still can’t decide on my number one suspect for RJ, I will say that McAllister and Bertram pretty much scared the bejeezus out of me at the end. Those poor actors have worryingly good “evil faces”.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @cece: indeed, I worry that this incredible obsession of PJ is what I meant by “too far gone”. How do you come back from something like that? What if he gets to exact his revenge on RJ? Then what? I personally cannot see a way out of this mess unless he ‘let’s go’ but PJ isn’t really big on letting go…

    Just like you, I wonder how much of this is about his family, about good in the world or about himself. When speaking to the 5 subjects at his place, he said something like “you have been very clever”. But we all know he must be the cleverest person in the room, right? He could haven chosen so many things to say, from “you monster” to “you’ve almost destroyed me” but he decided to go with “clever”. There are undertones of a twisted competition there. I don’t think “clever” is the adjective I’d use to describe the murderer of my family…

  • Olga

    I’ve been reading the blog ever since the 6th season started to calm me down from my post-episode high, when I’m itching to dissect the episode with a friend! So, thank you so much for all of your wonderful insights and reviews!!

    I agree with many of you on many aspects, but I have to admit that my biggest pet peeve is how Jane always used the most cunning, clever ways to capture even the most petty criminals….and now he’s resorted to following the worst lead in the history of leads. I am hoping against all odds that this is one of his infamous plan-within-a-plan tricks, where he makes you believe he’s being impulsive (and, frankly, stupid), but he really has everything mapped out to the dot….

    Anyhoo, I read many of the comments, but I’m not sure if anybody pointed this out: I think the tattoo (regardless of the actual meaning) has two purposes: a) a concrete mark of those who belong to RJs inner circle/organization OR b)RJ is, in fact, many, and the tattoos mark all of those that make up RJ (either way, it’s definitely “the mark of the beast”..)
    That brings up my next set of questions:
    If it marks those who belong to RJ’s circle, wouldn’t it have been mentioned on either a coroner’s report (Partridge’s for example), or at least the criminal records of his known accomplices (Rebecca Anderson, for one)? Wouldn’t that have been something that should’ve jumped out at Jane, or somebody in the team….I mean, after years of trying to catch the guy, little details like that shouldn’t be overlooked.
    Moreover, Patrick saw Lorelai in all of her naked glory (unfortunately…). Surely, he would’ve remembered if she had the tattoo, for sure!

    All of that brings me to believe that those three men are actually RJ, or they are his most important “disciples”. There’s also that thing about the tattoo actually being *three* dots… Either way, I wouldn’t put it past the writers to come up with some rushed, last-minute explanation for it. I’m still upset that this is what spurred Jane into action…no way any competent detective (or Mentalist) would jump to farfetched conclusions based on that meager “clue”. >=/

  • III Frogs

    Terrific review, Violet! Loved all the quotations from the bible given for context, too. Now to catch up on the comments.

    Oh, yes. Before the gunshot, doesn’t someone shout Wait or Stop or something?

  • KM


    Thank you for your response. I read it via e-mail, but don’t see it here. I will assume it is in moderation.

    I think we see Lisbon in much the same way. (I come from the Protestant tradition.) And, I don’t disagree that Lisbon thinks the act of murder fundamentally wrong. I just don’t think this will drastically change her and Jane’s relationship. I think the clue we are given is that she kept Bosco’s secret when he acted as I think Jane will in episode 8. This is not to say that she won’t grieve, express disappointment and anger, et cetera, but in the end who she sees Jane is by faith will bring her the peace needed to continue journeying together with him. That and thinking that death of RJ is the most mericiful and just thing. I expect a rough patch between the two, but nothing that separates them permanently.

    I think Jane too will have to find peace with killing RJ. I assume at some level it will occur to him that RJ succeeded in turning Jane into an image of himself. A thought that I imagine that RJ will find comfort/elation/triumph in as he is killed. From the grave RJ will still bring grief. And, that takes me back to the quote from the gospel of Thomas that I wrote above. Until Jane consumes the lion he will continue to suffer. By association Lisbon may still suffer too. Still I think that they will find a way to journey together and with full knowledge of each other’s worst and best sides.

    This is just my musings. I am not a philosopher either. I’m actually educated as a biologist, and I left the lab sometime ago to raise children and to work with domestic violence victims.

    Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. Cheers.

  • III Frogs

    Sorry for the length of this post, but there were 58 comments and it stimulated me to start talking! Probably by the time I post, there will be more comments and I’ll be sent to moderation anyway. Well, see ya when I see ya, then! 🙂

    @Kate I too noticed Stiles didn’t pull his sleeve up all the way or show the shoulder front part of his arm. And yes on Max Winter’s gun I think, and I think that might be the shotgun he pulled on Hightower in his attic that time, don’t know for sure, but that’s what I thought. I think since he was exonerated of Carter’s death, he would have been given his gun back.

    @Carla, totally agree with your assessment of the sunset beach hug and of the state of both Jane’s and Lisbon’s feelings and understanding. I agree. He had to do it. He will always save her whether she wants him to or not.

    @C Hill I had a hard time with the Visualize “blood” scene because it looked to me that the first girl got Hershey’s chocolate syrup poured on her and it totally distracted me. But it was chilling to then see Stiles paint the second woman with lines down her eyes like RJ did Lisbon! Hahaha, love your scene where Lisbon gets to punch Jane. Personally, I’m holding out for a fierce pinch that will leave a mark and raise a knot on his arm!

    @Cece @mosquito @KM @Violet I think that Jane and Lisbon very well understand one another and completely understand each other’s motivations throughout the lie and truth-telling they mirrored each other with throughout this episode. Lisbon has had a long time to come to grips with the fact that Jane is serious about killing RJ and that he is capable to do it. It doesn’t change her moral compass, wouldn’t no matter how she tried to make herself or Jane believe otherwise. When she says, not without me, I do think she intends to do whatever she can to make the situation salvageable from a law enforcement point of view, even if Jane does murder RJ. But Jane does not want her to have to compromise who he thinks she is for that. It doesn’t take away from the morality of her character. It deepens it that she can care enough for the fate of another human being and one she loves deeply, to put him first. It is the most human of things to do. If we take Jesus as an example, it points to the divine.

    In the end, I doubt there will be much more to forgive one another except for the irritation and annoyance of the trick on the surface. The depth of their feeling and understanding will take care of the rest. Surely they expected no less of one another, but were trying to beat each other at this apparently final chess game? They will be able to move on together because their relationship is not really based on words and ideas, but on feelings and actions, or at least “more than words.”

    I’m not convinced that Jane thought/knew Lisbon lied. He seemed to have trouble reading her. But he would take no chances, especially now so late in the game.

    @Taissa I thought Cho inadvertently fed Kira the PI to say Visualize had sent her. He said it, she paused a beat and averted her eyes and then said yes, that was her client. But I never believed her. Kinda doubt it was RJ either. I’m thinking Tyger, Tyger.

    @Lugenia Great point about Jane giving Hightower her and her kids life back. While probably not his primary motivation, I can see where that would be very satisfying to Jane and an added reason for ridding the world of the fiend RJ at any cost to himself. Atonement.

    @massimo THIS! —> “I think that the words they exchanged on the beach were between Patrick and Teresa, not Jane and Lisbon. He couldn’t lie to Teresa so he had to use the truth to distract her and therefore tricking both Agent Lisbon and Teresa into safety.”

    @Auli Interesting analysis about what it may mean depending on who hired the PI Kira.

    @Cece I think Jane is now motivated by more than revenge. It’s interesting you bring up Devil’s Cherry because it is clear in that episode that Jane is tired of the quest for RJ and urges himself to give it up. There was a point where he could have given up and RJ would not have noticed him. But in his hubris and quest for revenge, RJ came to notice him, then to enjoy the game with him and want him in the fold. To the point he started killing those who interfered with Jane or had the potential for a love interest. Now, he cannot escape the game with RJ who will surely kill Lisbon and probably Jane, too, if he tried. He is trapped and it could be argued that the trap is of his own making. But that doesn’t make it any less real.

  • III Frogs

    @mosquitohawk PJ can’t just let go of his quest at this point. He hasn’t been able to for at least a couple years now, even though he wants to. I think he even would and suffer his conscience calling him coward and weak for the rest of his life for not keeping his promise and avenging his family, if he could actually move on. He cannot. RJ is engaged with him now. RJ will not and does not want to turn loose. The only way out for PJ, and ultimately for Teresa Lisbon, is for RJ to die. It’s life and death now, now just an esoteric request for revenge, in my opinion. He has to kill RJ even if he dies trying. If he doesn’t, he’s dead anyway. And probably his precious Teresa, too.

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, thanks a lot Violet & Rose! 🙂 those two instances I mentioned are pretty much the only occurrences that I’m fairly confident are being intentionally included in the story, yet I’m much less confident about my interpretations. About Jane’s family house, at the end of 4×10, ’Fugue in Red’ we can see that it’s No. 1533, yet both Jane and Lisbon park their cars in front of the main house and walk, or run, to No. 1309 which some say is the place Jane used to visit clients and conduct his psychic business. So it must be within walking distance of the main house and actually appears to be just across it. Also continuing the same tree street name trend, in ‘The Red Tattoo’ it’s stated that Kira Tinsley lives in 1065 Oak Terrace!

    Wow! What an amazing and comprehensive discussion about law abidance and morality, and the evaluations of Jane and Lisbon’s personalities and behavior. Thanks everybody! 🙂 I have nothing to add regarding the main characters, as most of the existing POVs are already elegantly expressed. I don’t want to take sides, just think that our moral values (whether it’s a good thing or not) are more immediate to our actions than the laws we willingly or unwillingly abide (or break). Also the possible conflict between the two reminds me of the story of Inspector Javert in ‘Les Misérable’ in which he could not “reconcile his devotion to the law with his recognition that the lawful course is [in some cases] immoral.” (And I’m not drawing any parallels to our beloved characters and The Mentalist.)

  • chill

    “Oh, yes. Before the gunshot, doesn’t someone shout Wait or Stop or something?”

    I believe it’s: “Wait!….No!”

  • Sid

    re: Lisbon lying

    They actually allowed the audience to see it, by the way she paused and was uncomfortable. Obviously Jane knew she was lying to him.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @III Frogs: I agree entirely that PJ needs to *catch* RJ. He doesn’t need to kill him himself in cold blood though. That is the issue.

  • KM

    @III Frogs,
    Jane obtains the shotgun from apartment 3. I think he bought it then. The shotgun used with Hightower was CBI property. Jane admitted to lifting Lisbon’s keys.

    According to Closed Captioning there was “Wait! No!”. The explosion lit up left of the door first, then right of the door.

    A nice parallel between ‘Red Badge’ & ‘Fire & Brimstone’. In ‘Red Badge’ we have Bosco telling Lisbon had she had been guilty of murder that he would have helped, been on her side. Bosco wants to be sure she know it. Then Jane comes in a points out that Bosco is in love with Lisbon. In ‘Fire & Brimstone’ we have Lisbon trying to convey to Jane that she is on his side. Then her response to Jane on the beach. Jane admitting that she means something to him. Both scenes are tied together with Neely’s ‘Lisbon Secrets’. I just love how they used the music to awaken our memory palaces.

  • Rose UK

    Loved your comment, Massimo. 🙂 A very subtle but key distinction that I’d never really thought about before, so thanks. 🙂

    Interesting that there are largely two camps here on whether killing RJ will give Jane any kind of redemption. I’d never stopped to consider that it even *could* be considered a form of redemption, so I’m grateful to posters for giving me food for thought. Anyway, got me thinking a bit in connection with all the religious imagery that has been cropping up recently…

    Redemption = payment of a price, sacrifice of some kind, in order to be reconciled (to God)/freed from bondage. Blood of Christ, etc. Sacrificial lamb, as KM talked about. (Any link here to the Visualise blood rituals, I wonder?) Atonement and penance – I guess Jane’s essentially been doing some form of penance for the past 10 years. So I suppose the question is: What price will he ultimately be willing to pay to achieve redemption/freedom? Both routes (murder, and giving up the quest) will be painful and have different consequences. Would one or both of them really set him free? Does one offer more closure than the other? There’ll almost certainly be a metaphorical death (hopefully leading to deliverance), if not a literal one. Maybe they’ll wangle it so that RJ dies, but not in a way that makes RJ an unredeemed, cold-blooded murderer.

    As it stands, though, I’m a bit worried we’re heading in a Moby Dick direction and that everyone’s going down with the ship in one way or another. So I’m also hoping that Jane’s plan is some kind of massive long-con, which will miraculously later account for all the plot holes. 😉

    @ III Frogs: “He has to kill RJ even if he dies trying. If he doesn’t, he’s dead anyway. And probably his precious Teresa, too.” ~ Great point, I’d never looked at it from that angle before. That puts a new spin on the redemption idea. But I also think that Cece’s “ego” factor is definitely in there too. As are Violet’s ideas about being “worthy” and his family. (The bedroom scene is proof of that to me – back to where it all began.) In fact, I think there’s a whole mix of different motivations going on, not just one thing.

    Well, I dunno. Just Tuesday evening ponderings!

  • Cece

    @mosquitoinuk In the first season it did feel like Jane’s revenge quest was about his family but with each season it’s felt less and less like his primary motivator. Oh sure, it’s still his “official” reason, but you’re dead right, what he said to the suspects in F&B did not feel like the words of a man confronting the murderer of his beloved family. Jane loves to be and is used to being the smartest man in the room. It’s why he wouldn’t quit the psychic business even though his wife apparently begged him. It’s made Jane insane that for ten years RJ has been besting him at every turn. RJ is smarter than him and he can’t stand it. Jane’s ego is his tragic flaw and that is what it sounded like he was avenging in F&B.

    @IIIFrogs said, “Now, he cannot escape the game with RJ who will surely kill Lisbon and probably Jane, too, if he tried. He is trapped and it could be argued that the trap is of his own making. But that doesn’t make it any less real.”

    Again, to which I say, were that the case and Jane was truly tired of it all and wanted to escape this, he would’ve wished Lorelei and Kirkland the best of luck and told them to call if they needed anything. Before that even, he wouldn’t have summoned RJ to kill Panzer. He’s had opportunities, quite recently, to escape that he’s chosen not to take. There is no “trap”. RJ wouldn’t be less dead if he was killed by Kirkland instead of Jane. Jane is still engaged in this because he chooses to be, not because he has no other choice and definitely not for Lisbon’s sake.

  • KM

    I see your point, but I also see III Frogs’s. My interpretation from ‘Red John’s Rules’ was that part of the rule change was that RJ told Jane “Until you get me. Or I get you.” (That may not be the exact quote.) I honestly took that to mean that RJ was now hunting Jane. And, from that point on Jane had no way out. I do thank you for your points, they are accurate. Captain Ahab chose to chase the whale, Moby Dick did not pursue him, and Jane like Ahab is continuing to heap disaster upon himself. Unlike Ahab it seems Jane will not die, but will have to swim to make it to the shore. How his CBI family makes it shore, and if he has destroyed the relationship, remains to be seen. Personally, I think Jane will be blessed with more grace than he likely deserves. Hopefully he will be humbled by finally understanding how much he is cared for will do a further work upon his heart.

  • KM

    Sorry, my last comment was for Cece.

  • III Frogs

    @mosquitohawk, I see your position. I just disagree with it. There is no catching RJ. That will not work. He must be killed or he will continue to be king of the cesspool. Is there anyone in law enforcement and justice and the prison system, as presented in T M, that you trust to do that? I only trust Jane for that. The sky won’t fall on him forever because he kills a fiend. Apparently it lasts about two years. I will applaud him as upholding justice since the law is woefully insufficient for a killer like RJ.

    @Cece We’ll just have to agree to disagree. It’s impossible for me to work myself into thinking so little of Patrick Jane, I would have a really hard time maintaining interest in the show, because realistically, he IS the show and he definitely is going to come out of the situation, after suffering two years in exile of which we may at most see about 30 minutes, and bounce back to solving cases. What then? Do I hate the hero? Why would I watch? Nope. I’m going to love the hero. He has already paid for his heroism, in my book.

    Open that door he opened. Let your senses be assaulted by the truth of your precious family sliced to ribbons and displayed in blood to teach you a lesson for something you said in a TV interview. Then open your soul wide enough every minute of the day to accommodate that one overarching and horrific reality of your life. How am I even fit to judge a wound like that?

    My two cents.

  • III Frogs

    @C Hill Thanks for supplying that dialogue. It sounded like Patrick to me, but I can’t be sure. But somebody must have tried something unexpected in that room. And I can’t help thinking it was about the bomb. I hope Jane lets us in on it in the next episode!

  • Lugenia

    I tend to have a more sympathetic view of Patrick as well. The memory palace must be filled with recollections of his daughter’s touch, voice, and smell–the same for his wife’s. The memory of that is exactly what finally pushed Patrick to kill Timothy Carter–Charlotte smelled “like strawberries and cream”–something so sweet and innocent. In the most emotionally violent scene in the entire series, Carter rubbed Patrick’s face in the butchered bodies of his family. And then thought he had emasculated Patrick to such an extent that he could just walk away.

    Also, in Cackle Bladder Blood, Patrick objects to his brother-in-law that he did not take Angela away from him. She was unhappy. To paraphrase, he adds, “We ran away together. That’s what we did. And you know how difficult that was.”

    Patrick came from a carnival background, married “the boss’s daughter,” and made good in a sense–he put her in a beautiful home, created a child with her, was I assume faithful to her. He was not the perfect man–there is no such beast. He was self-centered and arrogant, but he also, I believe, loved his family with all his heart. Turning away from a successful career would leave him with–what? How could he provide for his family? For the men of my generation, the ability to provide for the family is integral to being a man. Patrick is relatively young, but in many ways he is “old school.”
    Also, I believe that to an extent Patrick has moved on from Angela–the single flower he released to the ocean (“Something is Rotten in Redmond”?), and his awakening sexuality suggests this. It is Charlotte that he can’t let go–“Devil’s Cherry” suggests as much, as does “Behind the Red Curtain “(?) when the lady singer says that her daughter’s untimely death is the reason she keeps singing even when she knows she should stop because of her disease. People I know who have lost children–to sickness and accident–say that the dead child is the first thing they think about every morning when the wake up– and the last thing they think about every night when they go to bed.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    III Frogs, NO SPOILERS PLEASE. Not everyone here has read those and some want to remain spoiler-free. If you want to mention them or comment on them, at the very least, use a spoiler alert. I don’t want to sound offensive, but *this* is a little inconsiderate.

  • III Frogs

    sorry wasn’t aware of a spoiler. just remove the comment whatever it was

  • III Frogs

    @ Lugenia Agree with every single word you posted.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    And I agree with what you wrote, to some extent. (Just not with the overly detailed specifics…)

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Lugenia wrote: “He was not the perfect man–there is no such beast. He was self-centered and arrogant, but he also, I believe, loved his family with all his heart.”

    Remember that moment in the pilot when he was standing by the door of his bedroom, before he even read the note from RJ? There were some framed photos on the wall, which showed him smiling with Angela and Charlotte. The happy family indeed. In dire contrast with the pictures of the sexually abusive father with the daughter he killed, put on the fridge in the victim’s home at the very beginning of the show. That was very telling of how dearly he loved them when they were alive, I think…

    And I completely agree with your analysis of not wanting to let go of Charlotte. For instance, in the first seasons he pretended not to have a child once or twice (‘Lady in Red’, if I’m not mistaken), while he never pretended not to be married: that shows how deeply he isn’t able to face Charlotte’s death, more than Angela. He doesn’t want to talk about her if he can avoid it. And, of course, it was her “ghost” that he conjured, not his wife’s.

  • Rose UK

    The Internet is a risky business, lol. I think I might retire from the blog till the next episode – if I can, that is. My willpower is not the best… 😉

    But I originally logged on to say something totally different: I wonder if Rosalind was hypnotised/brainwashed to provide a different description of RJ in the event she was ever discovered. It could have been his way of ensuring he didn’t have to kill her, and also be used to explain potential inconsistencies. I feel like the resolution needs to address some of the classic themes of the series: mentalism/tricks/maybe carny stuff, etc.

    And for what it’s worth, I find myself agreeing with Lugenia, Frogs & Violet on the importance of his family as a motivating factor. I always imagined them as a tight little unit of three – as an only child myself, I know what a powerful and close dynamic that can be. And they’d obviously left all their carny friends and family behind, so all they had was each other. With a father like Alex, no mother and no siblings (that we know of), you can understand why love and family and stability would be so crucial to him. Also, he still hasn’t taken his wedding ring off – it’s still a binding symbol.

    There’s so much going on in his battle with RJ, though. So many factors and angles. I have a stuck comment that mentions this. 😉

  • KM

    I have two stuck comments. And, was in response to a stuck comment written in response to mine that I received by e-mail. I look forward to seeing yours. Cheers!

  • III Frogs

    Don’t worry, Rose. I’ve already decided not to post here anymore. My mind has already processed this stuff and I can’t trust myself to figure it out. So, I apologize. Just easier.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Sorry to hear that: your comments are always very insightful and add some pretty interesting things to the discussion. You could just add a spoiler alert if you don’t trust yourself not to get carried away…

    (Anyway, “see” you in a few days hopefully! 🙂 )

    @ Rose: well, I think you’re pretty safe. Honestly, I’m surprised we managed to get spoiler-free that long… 😛
    Interesting theory about Rosalind by the way…

  • Carla Oliveira

    Oh, Violet, I’m the one here to thank! Thank you! You’re so sweet, so attentive!
    I’m not that brilliant as my co-readers here but I had to express my thoughts about Jane’s acts in this wonderful 6.06. It made me sad that it rained too much curses from people hating him in Twitter and Facebook because of the #JisbonSusetHug. We know him long enough to know how he acts, his scams, etc. and we have been loving him even so all along. Why in the Earth, he is so evil right now, suddenly? This the way he has been acting. He is always overprotective over Lisbon even she is a trained Agent. He is the same man who was so worried about her because she was going to a dangerous neighborhood and when he realized she was wearing a bomb vest he did stay with her even when she told him to leave; if it blew off, he would die with her. Is this so small to people to forget this? He promised to be there for her and he was!
    I don’t think he was cruel here, I’m sorry! Again overprotectiveness! He needed to keep her from there and he used the same way to open his heart in the extend he could. And he did it. People say that because of Lisbon smile, the way she was so happy and hopeful is why they are upset with Jane. No sense IMHO! Of course she was happy and hopeful! She just realized that the man she loves, loves her back! She knew he meant it. She must have remembered the “Good luck, Teresa! Love you!”. Of course she would be like that! And he? He used that “scam” to squeeze her and keep with him her touch, her smell, her everything! And when he was about to get in the car, he looked behind as having a last glance in what he was about to lose, to keep that view and he drove way crying! How he can be called cruel? RJ killed his family, I can understand he can’t let it go! If she were there she would try stop him and he can allow being stopped as he can’t allow himself act on his feelings for her because, I think, he knows, she would be successful if they were together. Again I didn’t see nothing cruel there! I am now surer than ever they do love each other because of that scene!
    Again, Violet, thank you and RB for this over spectacular review and this amazing blog! I always put its link in Twitter and Facebook because is always the best reviews ever no matter what episode!
    @ Frogs thank you for you agree with my former comment!
    @Taissa, I’m glad you became a shipper because of this episode! Too appropriate!
    @Rose, thank you for review my former text. Feel free to do so as long as you can! Too attentive!
    I’m too lucky for have found out this blog, not only because of the amazing reviewers but also because of these brilliant readers/commenters!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Oh! I realized also I’m not feminist! I’m totally against Jane being punched! I’m afraid for him almost as much as Lisbon will!

  • Cece

    For the record, I never said Jane didn’t love his family. I said that as time has gone on, it’s seemed less like his primary motivator for revenge against RJ as time has gone on. I bet that most of RJ’s other victims probably had family members that loved them. I don’t think that makes them deserving of revenge either. They all deserve justice, but that’s not the same thing as revenge.

    @Lugenia said, “Turning away from a successful career would leave him with–what? How could he provide for his family? For the men of my generation, the ability to provide for the family is integral to being a man. Patrick is relatively young, but in many ways he is “old school.””

    I see what you’re saying and I agree that supporting his family was probably very important to Jane, but based on what we’ve seen it was well within reach to transition to a non-fraudulent lifestyle. He has a beachfront home in Malibu, easily worth a million dollars if not more. He could’ve sold the house, moved somewhere more modest and had plenty of money leftover to support his family while he got his GED and went to college. Angela could’ve gone too. Given his intellect, he could probably choose to follow whatever career path he wished. He could then get a job and support his family. They may not have been able to live quite as large as before, but they could have had a nice, honest life, which is what his wife wanted. I think Jane’s knowledge of this is a large part of his regret.

  • Cece

    @KM said, “Personally, I think Jane will be blessed with more grace than he likely deserves. Hopefully he will be humbled by finally understanding how much he is cared for will do a further work upon his heart.”

    I would dearly love to see this.

  • Bruno Leonardo Michels

    A little theory here about this episode

    That could have been Jane too, but by the looks of the promo for the next episode I don’t believe so.

  • Taissa

    Woah! Lots of great comments. I’m having a good time reading it all! 😀

    Well, everybody is discussing about how Jane will catch RJ, if he will kill him or not. But what if RJ catches Jane first, like he said he could in that video last season? We’re only thinking about Jane catching RJ but not the contraire. What if this plan of Jane’s was the last straw for RJ and he decides to attack? Then, maybe, Jane would have no option but to defend himself by killing RJ and that would be self defence, Jane would have the chance of not going to jail. Or Lisbon could intervene somehow and kill RJ, although I don’t think that’s going to happen. I have no idea of what’s going to happen next but I think RJ is being too idle, he has to make his move at some point, and I think now would be a good time to do it, especially if Jane made a mistake with the tattoo thing.
    Well, is just a thought. I think it will most likely be Jane catching RJ first, we’ve been waiting for this for a long time anyways.

    Oh, and @CarlaOliveira, I’ve been a shipper for a long time I’m just only admitting it now! 😛

  • Lou Ann

    Wow, so many great posts and diverse ideas. I had to take notes to organize my responses.

    I, too, remembered that the house number in Red Fugue was not 1309. I didn’t know whether to chalk it up to poor story continuity, or that the outbuilding behind the family home had a separate number. Kind of strange that the two numbers aren’t consecutive, though, as you would expect for buildings near one another. Could there be another street behind the house? In one of the text messages that Jane sends to a RJ suspect in directing him to the location he specifies “take the service road.” Maybe that’s the answer.

    Lugenia: “How could he provide for his family? For the men of my generation, the ability to provide for the family is integral to being a man.” I would say it’s more about his inability to *protect* his family. I sort of agree with Cece that some of it has to do with his pride and ego, but i see that as very connected to a man’s self-concept in being able to protect the ones he loves, who are more vulnerable than he is, and who depend on him. This is a minor incident, but i can remember a time when my husband and I were walking through our neighborhood. A child opened the front door of a house, unwittingly allowing a very menacing dog to run straight towards us in attack mode. Mike instinctively stepped between me and the dog, swinging at it with his fist. As we talked about it later, he said he didn’t think, he just acted. It’s instinct with a father and husband. That’s where PJ failed. He let his ego and hubris endanger his family when he knows he should first of all protect them. He knows he was playing with a sadistic serial killer, and those he loved got burned.

    Lugenia also stated, “Jane sees RJ less as a human capable of great evil and more of a monster. Thus he needs to be destroyed.” As soon as I read this I thought of Beowulf, a classic of ancient Anglo-Saxon literature from the British isles.

    In the saga, the hero Beowulf slays a dragon but is fatally wounded himself.

    OK, full credit to Wikipedia: “a slave steals a golden cup from the lair of an unnamed dragon. When the dragon sees that the cup has been stolen, it leaves its cave in a rage, burning everything in sight. Beowulf and his warriors come to fight the dragon, but Beowulf tells his men that he will fight the dragon alone and that they should wait on the barrow. Beowulf descends to do battle with the dragon but finds himself outmatched. His men, upon seeing this display and fearing for their lives, creep back into the woods. One of his men, however, Wiglaf, who finds great distress in seeing Beowulf’s plight, comes to Beowulf’s aid. The two slay the dragon, but Beowulf is mortally wounded.”

    There is a gold mine of parallels here. Jane/Beowulf proceeds alone to slay the dragon.

    The dragon comes forth to lay waste as an act of revenge for a wrong done, as RJ punished Jane in an act of revenge.

    A trusted comrade (Wiglaf) rushes to Beowulf’s aid (Lisbon runs to help).

    I’m sure many of your more able minds see many other parallels.

    I just hope there’s no “fatally wounded” parallel, unless it’s RJ.

    Rose, maybe the act of catching RJ physically, and not through a long con, IS Jane’s redemption. I’m reminded of Loralei’s calling him out as he tries to mentalize her on the way to her sister’s cabin. She tells him to “drop the act.” He has relied so long on deception and deceit; maybe he needs to “drop the act” and get real with this final conquest.

  • Lou Ann

    Sorry to break out of the Mentalist discussion, but did anyone else see our boy on the Jimmy Fallon show imitating Mick Jagger? Priceless.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Lou Ann: I did and it was hilarious!

  • Lou Ann

    He’s usually so shy and self effacing on talk shows. It was a joy to watch.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Anomaly: I’ve had a bit more time to think about your very interesting remarks on numbers.

    First, the more I think about it, the more I love your point about trees: those three kinds you mentioned (pine, oak, cedar) are all Biblical trees, which appear many times in the text, for instance in Isaiah 44:14 (“He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak.He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.”) The mention to various trees might (or not) allude indirectly to the more well-known tree of knowledge, along with the apple Jane was biting into (and maybe the insidious remark about trees and apples to Kirkland).
    Also, if I’m not mistaken, cedar is used to purify a house, with the addition of other items such as birds blood (Leviticus 14:4; 14:6; 14:49; 14:51; 14: 52), like Jane is trying to do by killing RJ inside a part of his family residence (see Hightower commenting on RJ “cleaning house”). Moreover, it might be a simple coincidence, but the temple of God is made of cedar (Kings 6:9-10; 6-15; 6:15-16;…) which may or not indicate that Jane is indeed granting himself the role of God, taking upon himself to decide who should live and who shouldn’t, which is a very dangerous decision. The cedar of Lebanon is also a metaphor for arrogant men who will be punished by God in Ezekiel 17.

    But what I found utmost intriguing is the parallel between 1309 Orchid Lane and 1309 Cedar Street: obviously, the two are linked because what happened in the former has its consequences in the latter. It was his connection with Lorelei, and ultimately the fact that she chose to believe Jane and her death that caused the confrontation with the suspects, because Jane isolated a number of suspects thanks to the clue she gave him and because her betrayal has angered RJ to the point of upping the game with his playmate.
    Furthermore, your idea of comparing the numbers with Bible references seems very inspired to me (kudos for connecting it with the club in ‘Red Rover, Red Rover’! :D) Now if we look into Revelation, 13:9 –the book referenced more precisely this season, apparently-, there is also the exact same line than in Matthew 13:9: “Whoever has ears, let them hear.” The quote is in the middle of the text detailing how the seven-headed beast came out of the sea, while the dragon was standing on the shore, which was commented on for another episode. But even more interesting is the rest of the text (Rev. 13:10):
    “ “If anyone is to go into captivity,
    into captivity they will go.
    If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
    with the sword they will be killed.”
    This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.”
    Is that me, or they were announcing the probable murder of RJ by Jane since Orchid Lane?

    Thanks again for your really great comment, Anomaly! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Yeah, ok, I didn’t last long. Frogs, don’t go!! Don’t worry about spoiler-phobes like me. 😉

    Great discussion, Violet & Anomaly. I can’t take it in right now, but I will try to absorb what you’re saying asap! Interesting parallel with Beowulf, Lou Ann. I wish I could say I’d read it!

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Lou Ann: Jane definitely perceives himself as a chaser of monsters. To some extent, he certainly reveals in the status of “hero” his job as an investigator gives him: not the gratitude the victims’ families are feeling towards him (the guilt impedes him of revelling in it), but the admiration for his cleverness which his fellow hunters often express towards him. In ‘Red Dawn’, it is that esteem that Lisbon and the team showed after he reeled in his first murderer that helped him really recover a bit of his self confidence.
    His rudeness and dismissive treatment of suspects and murderers show that aspect of his perceived role: he hunts them down and stops them because they’re evil and don’t deserve his pity. Hence the way he used Marx to stage his fake breakdown: since the man was a psychopathic killer, he had no remorse in torturing him into confessing. Hence also the many horribly unrepentant killer who show no regret for their crime, and either claim to be either happy to have killed (‘Red Letter Day’), or don’t seem to be aware of the gravity of their crime (‘Red is the New Black’) or blame the victim, who was objectively doing the right thing (‘Red Alert’, ‘Red, White and Blue’)… And, like Beowulf, Jane is the only one who can stop them: he’s the greatest “fighter” in the field of intelligence and wins every time because he’s a worthy opponent.
    Now, the parallel you pointed out about the dragon seeking revenge for a wrong done is particularly interesting because in the legend, Beowulf already entered alone the dent of a monster once (Grendel’s mother) and was able to kill her even so. Which sets the dragon aside, as well as the show very own dragon-tiger-monster. When he fights him, the ancient hero is fatally wounded because he’s infested by the dragon’s poison and that’s what ultimately kills him after he managed to slain the beast. In a way, if I were to continue the comparison you opened, I would wonder if Jane would be “tainted” by his confrontation with RJ, rather than “fatally wounded”.
    Indeed, there’s a deep reflection running through the series and based on Nietzsche’s famous quote “he who fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” I kinda remember Jane telling Lisbon once that looking into the abyss not being a healthy thing; there’s also his comment about fearing that Volker was in her head and that not being a good road to go down (“bad neighborhood”)…That’s why Darcy asked Jane if hunting RJ had changed him –and why she suspected him of being RJ. In the same way, Panzer –a monster pretending to chase himself- asked Jane what he felt after killing Carter. And, more recently LaRoche had to bear the guilty secret that he mutilated a man in order to avenge his mother: he too had become a monster, albeit he is still a good man at heart. Same with that very first case in ‘Red Dawn’: Jane got the murderer to confess by asking him how a cop like him got to kill someone (he was trying to undo what he had done in helping him escape murder charges in the first place). And with Bosco, who we were told killed a criminal he could not arrest… Last not least, the cops involved in the “Tyger, Tyger” conspiracy are also monstrous hunters. In those, we can see two categories: 1) monsters who pretend to be hunters (like the secret organization… and maybe like guilt-ridden Jane feels that he’s been doing all those years, chasing criminals when he caused the death of his loved ones himself) and 2) good people who were tainted and corrupted by the job (like Lisbon fears Jane might become if he gets his way with RJ).

    (Sorry for the mistakes: it’s already a bit late and I’m not fully awake, lol…)

  • Lou Ann

    Violet, well what you were able to come up with being not fully awake was oceans more than I could have perceived at my most awake. I am in awe.

    Your point about Jane’s being poisoned by the sting or bite of the monster he pursues struck me. So, so true. Also, Beowulf was able to defeat Grendel and Grendel’s mother when he was a young warrior, and at the time was working at the behest of someone else. He basically earned his bones, so to speak, fighting someone else’s battle. If I remember correctly, he then returns home and rules his people nobly for many years. The dragon battle comes at the close of his life when he is physically weaker but internally just as brave.

    So, is this battle to capture and destroy Red John (and maybe Tyger, Tyger, if that is a separate entity) Jane’s final battle? How does he move on from there?

    Assuming he succeeds, and paralleling the epic poem, I agree it seems unlikely that he will survive the encounter unscathed. In deed, he may already have been poisoned merely by the pursuit, as you say, so the danger is even greater of his carrying the effects of the encounter well past the final stroke of victory. I am a little in fear of what kind of human being he will have become. What do you think?

  • anomalycommenter

    @Violet: Perfect interpretations! Very interesting remarks! Wherever I try to see some bits and pieces of a puzzle, you see the whole perfect picture. 🙂 I certainly did not have the right knowledge to connect the dots the way you flawlessly did above. And about my brief notes about those bible references, nothing special, in fact right from the start of this season, they have repeatedly made references to bible verses and concepts, like the reference to Luke 12:27 in the season premier and the readings from the bible for the wedding by the bride’s father in the ‘Wedding in Red’, so is seemed quite probable there could be something in there. And yes, it’s quite possible that it could have been a hint to RJ’s fate in ‘There Will Be Blood’, in addition to the imminent fate of Lorelei.

    And Thanks a lot for you and Rose’s kind words!:) Also sorry for my late reply, hardly had any time to do anything other than non-stop work. Very happy to see your new posts; would read them as soon as I find the quality time required. 🙂

    @Lou Ann: Great comments and you’re quite right; the presence of that service road could be the answer to the rather large difference between those two house numbers.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Anomaly, you’re too kind and you’re selling yourself short: you were the one who spotted the similar numbers and it was entirely your idea to consider them as a possible Bible reference. I very probably wouldn’t have thought of it and I only added a bit to your analysis, that’s all. Honestly, you have some pretty amazing detective skills! 🙂
    Take your time with the new posts: there is no hurry. I’ll be patiently looking forwards to your comments! 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Carla wrote : “Oh! I realized also I’m not feminist! I’m totally against Jane being punched! I’m afraid for him almost as much as Lisbon will!”

    Sorry for my belated reply, Carla: I’ve been caught up in other things and I keep forgetting to write down what I wanted to say, lol… 😛
    Well, personally, I like when Jane is punched, because it fits his character: 1) it shows how restless and disrespectful he can be, since many times he just asks for it… and 2) it has a kind of funny Charlie Chaplin vibe to it… even though he doesn’t hit people back, he generally just whines to Lisbon, which enlightens the childish reactions he can have. Honestly, that scene when Mancini chased him while threatening him with bodily harm had me grinning as much as the team was when he came back in the bullpen. 😀
    Moreover, I really would like to see Lisbon punch him again, because as a paradox I think it would add some levity to his recent behavior. It seems a bit tragic that he suffers while deliberately hurting her and that she accepts this systematically as a if it was a given. This kind of violent reaction would at the very least address the issue -and maybe add some comic relief. Not to mention that, after stranding her on the roadside, he deserves it… It’s obvious the woman might have some deep seated violent tendencies related to her consultant, as hinted by the fact that she didn’t even hesitate to use a hammer to crush that funny wooden box he had been playing with: in a way, it reminds a little of the overwhelming anger she confessed in her fake breakdown to catch Dr Carmen, after she smashed the glass walls of her office.
    As far as I recall, her self-restraint with Jane only faltered once: when he dared intrude in a very personal matter, after Bosco’s death, in ‘Code Red’. She probably reacted as much to his stunt than to the fact that he was interfering with something she considered very private… Actually, given this precedent, Lisbon’s character development is highlighted by the fact that she now doesn’t react that much out of anger (by punching him) than out of hurt and worry (by calling him while he’s in the guest house). She’s been opening more to him: after that punch in S2, she came to talk to him spontaneously about her brother, then to address even more intimate questions (her dating life, after meeting Greg, then her possible fetishes). Same about her feelings: at first she kept denying her affection and protectiveness (“he closes cases”), the she asked him what he meant after his “love you” in ‘The Crimson Hat’; later, she didn’t deny Barlow’s assumption that she was a little bit in love with him and, now, it looks like she accepts to acknowledge her feelings given her visible emotion at Jane’s words. Therefore, I agree with you to some extent: even though I like seeing him punched in the nose, I also like that she doesn’t punch him more often, because in spite of certainly being heading towards some hurtful moments, she’s less a closed off control freak. I just hope this progress wouldn’t be shattered soon by Jane’s decisions.

    (And thank you for your very, very lovely comment, Carla! 🙂 )

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Lou Ann wrote : « Assuming he succeeds, and paralleling the epic poem, I agree it seems unlikely that he will survive the encounter unscathed. In deed, he may already have been poisoned merely by the pursuit, as you say, so the danger is even greater of his carrying the effects of the encounter well past the final stroke of victory. I am a little in fear of what kind of human being he will have become. What do you think? »

    Well, it’s just my opinion, but I can’t see either how Jane will remain unaffected by his final encounter with the nemesis he obsessed about for years, whatever the outcome. Even more since he obviously has made peace with the idea that he might not survive and that he might hurt Lisbon’s feelings –again, whereas that actually happens or not. It has to weight down on his psyche, plus the end of his obsessive quest means that he will be left with a gaping hole in his life (created by the lack of long-term goal, by the need to finally grieve his family after fulfilling his vow to try and avenge them… not to mention that there’s that distinct possibility that Lisbon would be off limits afterwards).
    On the other hand, there’s Lisbon’s influence to counterbalance the “poison”: in the ten years she’s been lightening the darkness of his life, there’s hope that her inherent goodness and forgiveness might have rubbed off on him.
    Jane is complex character, so I wonder if he won’t end up with a bit of RJ’s darkness and Lisbon’s goodness all mixed together: truth be told those two influences have been warring in him since the very beginning of the show, therefore I wouldn’t be surprised if the writers found a way to make him tainted yet at the same time a better man at the end of this long journey he’s been taking for years.

    (And thanks for the compliment! It’s certainly undeserved, but I appreciate it nonetheless, lol! 🙂 )

  • KM


    “I wouldn’t be surprised if the writers found a way to make him tainted yet at the same time a better man…”

    That is how I imagine things will go. To kill RJ is to reflect RJ back, and that should it happen will leave a stain. And, not to mention of point of triumph to RJ.

  • Rose UK

    @ KM and others. You’ve expressed one of the reasons I don’t want Jane to kill RJ: it’s a win for RJ (maybe not the ultimate triumph – depending on how Jane would deal with it subsequently – but a triumph of sorts nonetheless) and there’s no going back. Although it all depends on how you view ‘winning’ and if indeed anybody ‘wins’ at all.

  • anomalycommenter

    WARNING! (This is not a spoiler, it’s a warning about the ultimate spoiler that has leaked online.)

    Please be careful on tumblr, twitter, instagram and other sites! Someone has leaked the RJ episode. Apparently they and others are also broadcasting RJ’s identity and plot detail in the Mentalist related tags.

  • Rose UK

    OMG! I don’t visit those sites, but I will be quaking in my boots every time I go online now, lol. Thanks for the heads-up, Anomaly. 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Thanks Anomaly, I was just struggling with my recalcitrant laptop to post a warning of the same sort. I guess things are becoming increasingly difficult for those who prefer to stay spoiler-free… Hopefully things will calm down after the big RJ/ aftermath storm ends! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    @ Rose UK: NP! 🙂 Stay safe from spoilers!

    @ Violet: Thanks again for the undeserved compliments! 🙂

  • lizzie

    I don’t rememeber if someone already said it (and over 100 comments are really a lot to read :)) but the way that Styles presented himself during the cerimony, and the ceremony itself, remembered me of the cerimonial of the Hellfire Club (also known as Order of the Friars of St. Francis of Wycombe, that later became the Phoenix associtation) , active in Ireland and Britain during the 18th century; the philosophy was, of course, very different from Visualize’s, as the Hellfire club’s motto was “do as you like”, and favotired the pleasures and sins of the flesh, but graphically it’s another thing. Of course, in the Mentalist, the color red of the adepts’ robes was used mostly to connect with Red John and make us think about the killer, but it’s just another think they have in common- red, black and white “robes” resembling the ones used during official batisms and Christian cerimonials, and the resemblace of the Christian cerimonials itself.
    Also, there is the fact that Styles and Visualize-just like the Hellfire Club- tried to “lure in” and convert to the cause, if we can say it that way, people in powerful positions and/or law enforcement, in order to create a power base-line of security and maintein a certain liberty.

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