The Mentalist Season 5 Wrap-Up – Expectations for Season 6


Ok, so I wasn’t really planning to add a conclusion to the review about the finale, but you commenters have convinced me that it would be useful and, hopefully, a bit enlightening too… So, here you go, I just hope it would be even a little bit interesting… 🙂

Tying up loose ends and bringing up new leads

As an intended transition between the shock full season 4 and the promising season 6, the last twenty-two episodes have dealt with some of the questions viewers were bound to wonder about after ‘The Crimson Hat’. Indeed, the previous season meant to question the premises of Jane’s stance concerning both his nemesis and the life he’s been building for ten years: he feigned to accept RJ’s offer of friendship, he renounced to his very meaningful celibacy by becoming Lorelei’s lover, he left his job as a consultant and Lisbon, before getting even closer to her… and then jeopardizing again what they had with Lorelei’s revelation about their night together. As a consequence, some of the goals of the following season featured Jane working to

– restore his credibility as an investigator on the RJ case (=the struggle with the FBI),

– reassume his status as an unquestionable enemy of RJ, thus thoroughly ending that weird game of “friendship” he initiated by letting Panzer be murdered by RJ (=turning Lorelei and convincing the others that she had kidnapped him when he got her out of jail, meaning that he still wanted to be seen as a victim),

– reaffirm to the world, to Lisbon and to himself that he’s still a grieving widower, even after sleeping with his nemesis’ mistress, with all the ambiguity inherent to this point (= affirming at first that he had no feelings for Lorelei, before admitting later that he actually liked her; hallucinating that his daughter gave him her authorization for seeing other women than her mother, even if he denied it to himself)

– extinguish the embers of disappointment, jealousy and distrust that threatened to burn his bridges with Lisbon (=fighting with her, proving to her that he’s still trustworthy by telling her the truth at long last… and apologizing to her for being secretive and controlling). And building implicitly new bridges with his partner.

At the same time, ironically his path towards redemption is also now paved by seven names of suspects… a highly symbolical number, with magic/mystic/religious connotations which is convenient for the master of a cult-like group of followers eager to kill anyone at his very order. And now, Jane has to face a list reminding somewhat of biblical analogies, like the seven heads of the beast, or the seven deadly sins…

Also, is that only an amusing coincidence, or were those suspects really meant to match those sins? Stiles reminds of the almighty pride as a cult-leader who pretend to be all-seeing and who control the life of his followers… Bertram shows gluttony, not for food but for power: he wants to win against the others players and has proven people are less import to him than his image, he’s selfish, another side of gluttony. Kirkland is greedy with information: he takes everything in, to the point of invading Jane’s privacy and spying on Lisbon, but he doesn’t share anything, even some insignificant detail about himself on a date. Raymond Haffner may illustrate the sloth: he failed with his attempt at controlling Jane and let it at that; he decided to leave the CBI to create his own business because there was no money in the California law enforcement agency, so he accepted what he could from Visualize in exchange of taking Lisbon away from Jane… he’s in dire contrast to Lisbon herself, who decided to stay where she works because she loves her job and who fights for her consultant without holding back. Reede Smith first appeared on the show getting on a fight with Cho and Rigsby who were protecting Lisbon: he’s the wrath. Sheriff Thomas McAllister was the only man among the suspect to show a personal interest in the physical appearance of one of the women of the team ( since Kirkland wasn’t interested in Lisbon): he complimented Van Pelt –a redhead in a red dress…- in a fashion creepy enough that he was mistaken for the killer… he may be the lechery. Last, not least, Brett Partridge has been offended by Jane’s theories (and insults) and has tried to prove himself more than once as a clever investigator on murder scenes before being called off by the consultant: there’s a competitive side to him that may explain his veiled hostility… a side of envy, maybe? I don’t know if I’m reading too much into this, but the similarities are pretty intriguing.

Beside, and this is without any doubts only an entertaining coincidence, Eileen (Lily Barlow’s real first name) was the name of the female lead of Agatha Christie’s ‘The Seven Dials’ Mystery’ –which featured a secret society with supposedly criminal activities- and she too went by a nickname (Bundle). It’s a small world, really…

A return to the roots: closure and new beginnings

But, more than just a transition between two failed new schemes to get his nemesis, the whole season revels in an evocation of various beginnings: the probable starting point of RJ’s career as a serial killer (‘The Red Barn’); the first days of Jane’s link with the CBI and the team (‘Red Dawn’); the life Jane had without the tragedy and his bond with his daughter (‘Devil’s Cherry’: « you’re safe, you’re loved, you’re wise”); Jane’s childhood memories (‘Red John’s Rules’).

Those steps back in time give new insight into the characters’ background and are meant to prepare us for the confrontation in the final, as well as they mark the beginning of a something new: hence the introduction of new characters who will change the game. Also, one of the meanings of orchids –one of the shows main themes this season-, is precisely “new beginnings”…

There is no surprise then that every character in the team got to access to closure and recently started something new.

• Rigbsy got a kind of closure with his father’s death (‘Blood Feud’): he more or less reconciled with him when talking about his son and got some perspective. Beside, the fact that he got his revenge on his killer (thanks to Jane) set him at peace with his past. On the other hand, he also managed to man up and assume his feelings for Grace and addressed the lingering anger due their complicated history together… He’s definitely grown up.

• Grace too has made quite a progress: in the previous season, she was still angry and hurt by O’Laughlin’s betrayal. Now, not only has she grieved the loss of her too perfect love, but she also managed to prove that she’s thought out many aspects of her life –all of that masterfully wrapped up in handful of episodes, due to Amanda Righetti’s pregnancy… Indeed, she’s the one leading the most interesting parts of the decisive talk she has with her former lover and she’s the one who goes to him at the end of ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’.

• Cho too gets his closure with his bittersweet meeting with his ex-girlfriend Summer, who is pregnant from another man and about to happily marry him (‘Panama Red’). He also got an opportunity to widen his professional perspectives with the Rapid Response Team lead by Tamsin Wade… the fact that it failed doesn’t really count character-wise: it shows that he acquired maturity, even though it didn’t really paid off and his rather harsh involvement to help Summer certainly burned some useful bridges.

• Lisbon: she also is granted her own situation assessment for her ten years working with the CBI (‘Red Dawn’). With the passing episodes, she seems to assume more who she is instead of the politically-correct façade she usually puts forward, which Jane alludes to by teasing her about her Catholic up-bringing. She lets down “the voice of reason” for “the voice of wrath “, she doesn’t hesitate to pull one over on a judge to get Volker, she has learnt to rely on someone (asking for Jane’s help twice)… Every one of these points goes against her control freak tendencies. On the other hand, she has also managed to express her anger towards Jane and his obsession: it doesn’t match her past affirmation that she didn’t do personal. Somehow, both aspects remind of the two things reproached to Jane himself by Barlow: being controlling (=Lisbon’s control freak tendencies) and secretive (=not doing personal, keeping her private life to herself)… and that might explain why Barlow didn’t allude to two even worse sides of those flaws in Jane, being manipulative instead of just controlling, and calling him a liar instead of the rather benign “secretive”… Beside, like Cho, her career was given a new perspective (that did go nowhere either) with Haffner’s job proposition… A potential for a new start is then indeed on the making for her too, as hinted by her new success with men.

Jane’s progresses

1/ On a personal level, his story with Lorelei has given Jane a new perspective.

First, Lorelei led him to face an evolution of his stance towards his quest. What had been building up in S4 after Carter’s death blooms here after losing Lorelei: after those two failures, Jane stated considering his commitment to revenge, especially with the words his mind put in Charlotte’s mouth. Even if it’s still thinly veiled, it’s becoming more and more apparent that he’s hoping for a start over. That may explain his lassitude after failing again in his scheme in this season finale… Still, more and more those failures are only temporary and give him new leads which get him even further involved.

Second point, as it’s been stated, Lorelei also forced him to face a new step in the grieving process. Adding to lassitude and hope for something more, he’s starting to learn to accept:

– that his family is no longer here. The belladonna helped him see his daughter, and his ambiguity shows in the fact that he didn’t want to let her go; still she wanted to make him accept their loss. It marks the beginning of healing: the most decisive sign is how easily he talks about his childhood in the finale, a thing he never did before…

– what he did with Lorelei. He’s admitted his liking her after Lisbon cornered him. He came to terms that he can feel again something more than just attraction for women (more than with Erica). He’s opened a door to something new, leading him to assume his deeper feelings for Lisbon too.

Acceptation is therefore a new aspect he gained in his relation with Lisbon: during the Volker case, he helped her without gaining anything for himself, nor for making up for one of his mistakes like he used to. And, contrary to the finales of S1 and of S3, he didn’t come to her rescue because her life was directly at risk. He just understood that the case was important for her and that she needed to get the man to achieve a kind of closure: he understood her need, like she’s probably started to get his own need for revenge. They also made progress in the communication area: they came from the worst kind of communication at the beginning of the season (not telling her about his night with Lorelei or about his six months scheme), to a better understanding on that aspect too. That was allowed by their fight in ‘There Will Be Blood’, which was violent and certainly painful, but put their cards on the table, both personally and professionally. It’s hinted in Jane’s ways of apologizing: in ‘The Crimson Ticket’, he only gave her a rather lame blanket apology, while in the finale, he apologies for being secretive and controlling and make amends by accepting to tell her the names on the list. Both aspects explain the fact that he implicitly acknowledges that their mutual feelings have deepened and that they may be about on exploring a whole new field (as might be hinted by the sex talk at the end of ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’).

In retrospective, Lorelei seems to have been an inversed reflection of Jane: she was in the same situation than him, still her choices after losing her sister were radically different. After meeting Jane, she too got a possibility of closure (the truth) and the opportunity to start anew (by going after RJ and avenging her sister), yet once again her choices in her new life out of RJ’s influence were tainted by violence, leading to her death. She’s a counter-model for Jane.

2/ Concerning RJ

Jane made some pretty significant progress in his quest to find the serial killer too: he’s up to a new step with his infamous list narrowed down to seven suspects. Yet the new rules supposedly changed by him but chosen by RJ show that the consultant has for the first time managed to get to his nemesis personally by taking his lover from him in a way reminiscent of RJ taking Angela from Jane… Hence the new psychic angle, symbolizing that RJ is taking Jane’s role to mess with him before getting into his head and killing off his happy memories… In a way, his trying to mess with Jane’s mind reminds of what he did with Kristina and the plausible brainwashing he used with some of his followers in his cult-like organization (Lorelei maybe and even Rosalind in her last scene)…

Anyway, it truly seems that the countdown has started; there are only a handful of suspects instead of, well, any character of the show, including Jane himself, while the number of victims is bound to increase… Danger may be everywhere for Jane and his past and present beloved and, this time, RJ is out to get them…

As a conclusion, we can say that, if Jane is on a path to shed his past as a “worm” as RJ called him to become a hopeful butterfly, he may just be really starting getting out of his chrysalis…

Expectations for Season 6

Following the wish-list proposed by Auli and Rose UK and developed by many great commenters, it seems that there are many points that are hoped for in the upcoming season 6…

1) A major expectation for the new episodes concerns RJ and the game he will be playing with Jane, as well as his secret identity. It would be great if we were given a bit more insight in how Jane’s mind worked to come up with his list, given that many names don’t match the clues we were given earlier in the show. Will they simply ignore those discrepancies (leading to a series of huge and disappointing pet peeves), or will they explain Jane’s conclusions by some clever deductions? Many regular viewers have rightfully expressed their worries and disappointment towards this list of names, since some of them were discarded due to the incoherence with said clues, while some others were seemingly brought out from nowhere (Smith, McAllister,…). I can only hope they will handle this point as cleverly as they did with many others…

2) Obviously, viewers are hoping for progress on the Jane/Lisbon front too: they’ve both shown sign of caring deeply for the other and their closeness is admittedly turning towards romance. Still, many expect a new and much needed balance to be found in their relationship… the question is: are the writers going to bring back Lisbon’s badass skills into the complicated game she’s playing with her elusive partner, leading her to take matters in her own hands both concerning his lack of transparency and his feelings, like she did in ‘There Will Be Blood’? Or will they going the more usual route of making Jane try to adapt to her, by getting more trustworthy and respectful of what she may think? Of course, there’s always the possibility that Jane might man up and assume his feelings if he’s confronted to a treat (Lisbon in danger/ losing her to another man/…) and maybe, maybe, have a adult, constructive –and calm- talk with her like Rigsby and Van Pelt did… even though “adult” isn’t a word that may be easily applied to the wayward childish consultant…

3) Concerning the other characters, it would be nice to have more information on creepy Kirkland, not only because he’s one of the suspects but also because he’s very mysterious: a revealing episode like we got with Laroche would be very welcome. Also, they could bring back from the shadows some pretty intriguing characters; what really happened to Darcy after her break-down, to Hightower, Kristina and Rosalind? Could we get some allusion to Minelli or maybe get an arrest for the manipulative Erica? I guess this season full of “back to the roots” moments has really spoiled us… 😛

4) As a personal wish, given the threat of RJ to destroy his happy memories, I hope we get to know more of Jane’s past, may it be in or outside the carnie circuit or related to his family life: friends from his teenage years, Ruskin family members, ex-girlfriends, past adversaries or rivals, the possibilities are endless … We actually know so little about him, that almost anything might give new insight into his character.

Feel free to add your own expectations for season 6! 😉

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470 responses to “The Mentalist Season 5 Wrap-Up – Expectations for Season 6

  • Ifrah

    Thank you, Violet. This is perfectly written, I don’t have much to add.

  • anomalycommenter

    Brilliant, just brilliant!

    Well, the show until now proved much better than I would have expected from a TV drama. I am very much satisfied with the way it is, and will watch how many seasons they’ll produce, yet the perfectionist in me always wants more (I hope I’m not committing any of the aforementioned sins by doing so!):

    But as you mentioned above, there are many loose points and abrupt or unexplained ruptures in the storyline. Very few arcs conclude definitively. As III Frogs put it beautifully: “they never TELL us anything!!!”. That may be intentional to add to the show’s suspense, but I think that it’s just a little too much. I’ve never been a fan of conspiracy theories, but have to admit that I keep falling for them in this show much more than most of our other fellow fans. Even if they truly want to show a definite conclusion to a story, believing that has become difficult for me! Take for example LaRoche’s box contents, as I mentioned in a vanished post before, it’s just like ‘Schrodinger’s cat’ to me, full of uncertainty, or I’m not certain that the Volker and Brenda’s stories came to an end (the abrupt conclusion to Volker’s story and Brenda telling Jane that he doesn’t know the first thing about her…), also endings of the stories of other characters you enumerated, all can be a very fertile ground for some brilliant episodes for the next season, or could be detrimental to the coherence of the story as tying them all up nicely does not seem to be an easy task!

    I gather that they are going to serialize the story and put less emphasis on the case of the week in season 6 and more on Jane/RJ chase and end this arc. That is a radical but welcome change, ‘cause cases of the week (alone and in themselves, and not in relation to the main arc, and not considering the main characters story developments) were never the strong aspect of the show, imho. So as Robin Tunney said in an interview, I hope that it would reinvigorate the interest in the show and bring back those of us who became disillusioned with this long chase.

    Thank you violet and Reviewbrain! Great wish list Auli, Rose UK, and other contributors! Wish you all the best!

    P.S. Also wish my comments and twitter replies would not vanish into thin air, wishful thinking, I know! 🙂

  • rita

    Thank you Violet, excellent review of the season and projection of the coming season. I was interested by the angle of the seven sins…cleverly worked out, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if that sort of thing was in Bruno’s mind when he chose the seven suspects. I too hope that we get some insight as to why Jane has picked those particular characters…I know he says it is the only ones with whom he has shaken hands and who fit sertain criteria regarding RJ’s crimes….I want to know WHAT criteria.

    I am hoping that we gain some insight to Jane’s past, I am glad that he has started to discuss this with Lisbon and didn’t just try to fob her off with lies and smoke screens in the finale.

    Once again, thank you for a thought provoking piece of work.Looking forward to reading everyones comments.

  • Auli

    This is just brilliant, good job Violet! I don’t have anything to add except the season 6 premiere is on the 29th of September. Is getting close!

  • Reader22

    I agree with everything you said. They need to have a heart to heart get it all out in the open before they can move forward.

  • C Hill

    very nice work on the seven sins, violet. i do like it quite a bit. i think we may need a separate treatise on flowers in season 5, though, eh?

    as to how Jane got to the seven names, well, we were told. these were the only people who could have been at all of the murder scenes. i don’t think we will be made privy to all of the details, though i expect some explanation for some characters will be necessary.

    i went back over 04×02 again for Haffner. I think some very clever layering of clues there — red herring or no? — regarding Haffner’s expertise in surveillance. we see throughout the episode that Haffner is not Jane’s match mentailly, he does try to do his job by gathering information and use that to get his way. hmmm…. i think a detailed suspect breakdown may be in order as well!

    i’d like to see some characters come back, even if just briefly. volker might be nice. we’ll see carnie folk for sure, i think, and probably more than one as victims. mashburn of course. and even brenda. speaking of ms. shettrick, rebecca wisocky gave an interview about her new show (devious maids on lifetime) and was asked about her time on The Mentalist. I think a good read, and nice comments about “ticking time bombs” (and, yes, of course, nice comments about Baker 🙂 )

    more in a bit…this post may already be too long!

    =================

    Then briefly talking about your role on THE MENTALIST, how surprised were you to learn that your character Brenda was the inside mole?
    REBECCA: I’ve been on that show since the second season. They would just here and there pepper me throughout and I would breeze through and be a thorn in Lisbon’s side every now and again, and would just be vaguely annoying. Then I was around as a potential suspect at the end of Season 3. So I think it’s lovely. That show has such great fans, and has such an awesome following, and they’re such a great cast and the writers are so good. I think it’s really smart that you have someone around who is just laying in wait as part of their world that you can then reveal to have a secret, hidden agenda. That’s been playing another angle all along. I just think that’s great storytelling, and when you have that kind of show with that kind of following, and has been that kind of successful lengthy run, you can afford yourself that. They’ve got lots of little ticking time bombs lying around, I’m sure. I’m not speaking out of turn, but I am saying I guess I turned out to be one, didn’t I? (Laughs) As an actor, you’re always delighted. The juicier the material, the better. And I certainly don’t shy away from playing difficult or even unlikable characters. I enjoy doing whatever needs to be done to tell the best story.

    Did you have a hard time saying goodbye to the character of Brenda?
    REBECCA: I don’t know if it’s goodbye, she’s not dead yet! (Laughs) She’s in prison. Though I don’t know if Brenda Shettrick will fare too well in prison. It will be interesting. Maybe she’ll thrive and she’ll actually find love there. Who knows. I don’t know anything other than I’d love the chance to play with that crew again.

    In portraying Brenda, what would be a favorite memory or scene?
    REBECCA: That last episode was pretty fun. It was great. I’ll say this, in all of the episodes I had done, I had never been on screen with Simon Baker until that last episode. So finally being in the hot-seat and interrogated by him at the bitter end there, that was great. He’s pretty awesome.

  • C Hill

    well if my long post doesn’t show up in a few hours i’ll probably repost in smaller chunks. yes i got smart and saved it this time! nice work, violet!

  • North Coast

    Thank you for the excellent summary. I hope that as Jane gets closer to Red John, that he and Lisbon pull in the whole team to help. Jane always gets in trouble when he tries to go it alone. What else do I hope? Let’s see. I really hope they don’t start writing Lisbon’s character as believing that Red John is psychic-she’s too smart, so they need to quickly deal with the mystery of how Red John came up with Jane’s list. I hope Jane and Lisbon finally fess up about their feelings for each other. As Entwife said so well, since at least three of the suspects(Bertram, Haffner, Kirkland) know there’s something going on, it’s not safe for them to not deal with this. Ooh, there’s a fan fiction idea for you, Entwife!

  • zee

    Beautiful, Violet! 🙂
    I’m intrigued by your insights just as I am anticipating excitedly for future comments to come, till Season 6 airs…

    Thank You!

  • III Frogs

    wot wot? Who’s Entwife??? 😀 You’re a hoot, North Coast! And so correct. Jane and Lisbon, of all people, should realize the full hazard of pretending a lie between them. It’s ridiculous, really. Because they’re pretending it between themselves. It would be different if they were truthful between themselves but pretended to the rest of the world for their own protection. That would make sense, but I would want to know as a viewer that this is the case. I definitely want to see this dealt with in season 6, and very early on, because it’s a dangerous trip wire to them both. Decisions of life and death made on the error of deliberate misinformation is a fatal flaw, in my opinion. Hmmmmmm. Stories. 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think that RJ is Kirkland, he creeps me out. But, Haffner is also a good candidate. We also shouldn’t forget that BH said that RJ is ordinary man. Anyway we’ll be let down with his revelation. About Jane and Lisbon’s feelings, I think they have nowhere to run off. It’s now or never. Maybe she, who’s the stronger, takes charge. Just a feeling…

  • C Hill

    well, carla, i cannot disagree with you regarding Haffner. Let’s see if this gets through…part 1 of ? from what i tried to post last night.
    ——————————————————————————
    very nice work on the seven sins, violet. i do like it quite a bit. i think we may need a separate treatise on flowers in season 5, though, eh?

    as to how Jane got to the seven names, well, we were told. these were the only people who could have been at all of the murder scenes. i don’t think we will be made privy to all of the details, though i expect some explanation for some characters will be necessary.

    i went back over 04×02 again for Haffner. I think some very clever layering of clues there — red herring or no? — regarding Haffner’s expertise in surveillance. we see throughout the episode that it appears Haffner is not Jane’s match mentailly, he does try to do his job by gathering information and use that to get his way. hmmm…. i think a detailed suspect breakdown may be in order as well!

  • Auli

    C Hill and Carla: From the seven suspects, I’d put my money on Haffner too. I think also, C Hill, that the info about Haffner’s expertise in surveillance is quite interesting and quite needed quality for RJ.

    I think the opposite of Carla about RJ; I don’t think he has any “creep” vibes. If we look real life serial killers, many of them has been described as normal and people close to them have been in total shock when the killers’ businesses were revealed. Also, if we check the minions of RJ, we might see two types (I think someone mentioned this somewhere in the comments somewhere), the victims and the monsters. As far as we know, the victims have faced some huge trauma, like missing someone close to them (Lorelie) or having been abused by someone close to them (Rebecca). Lorelie and Rebecca were described as a mess after their loss/abuse so they have been quite vulnerable. I don’t think that no one who has faced e.g. sexual abuse would trust or love some man who give creep vibes all the time so much that she or he would be happily die for him. So I think that RJ needs to be really normal and emphatic (well, at least can fakes it well) in order to gain trust of these damaged people and like in relationships with abuse (quite funnily, yet again someone in some here in this blog used this as example of Jane/Lisbon relationship) he makes them dependent on himself. The monster minions on the other hand have seemed to be really good guys (the cop killer and Carter) and respected people in their communities but were faking it. I think RJ is like that and these people hang around with him because they are able to relate with each other.

    To me, Haffner is the most normal person on the list that does not stand out from the list; he’s handsome but not too, he seems to be smart but not brilliant, he is not that high in rank or position, etc. Haffner pretty much blends in a crowd without the only incident with the Ellis farm (it could be a trick of some sort to mess up with Lisbon and Jane). The others, well Stiles is quite god-like, Kirkland fits in so well with all the clues about RJ that he is just too perfect of a candidate, Bertram is in this grey zone of maybe (the poem, some shenanigans with Kirkland, infor about Hightower’s personal life but than on the other hand, he fist pumped with Lisbon), Partridge has a creep tattooed in his forehead, McAllister was creepy during the whole episode where he was and Reed’s temper draws too much unwanted attention. So Haffner it is!

  • Carla Oliveira

    So, Auli, you have just convinced me. It’s Haffner, too much good. But it has no way Kirkland turn out to be a good guy. He killed Lennon like that.
    I also liked your description about the two kinds of minions: the damaged and addicts in abusive relationships and the fake good-guys monsters. RJ himself might be like this.

  • C Hill

    auli, i’m not 100% sold on haffner but i find him a more interesting candidate than some do — he also projects well as a lieutenant.

    onto part 2. if you can find the Rebecca Wisocky interview (on tvaddict) it’s worth a read — i’ll try to post the specific Mentalist parts later.
    —————————————————————————-
    i’d like to see some characters come back, even if just briefly. volker might be nice. we’ll see carnie folk for sure, i think, and probably more than one as victims. mashburn of course. and even brenda. speaking of ms. shettrick, rebecca wisocky gave an interview about her new show (devious maids on lifetime) and was asked about her time on The Mentalist. I think a good read, and nice comments about “ticking time bombs” (and, yes, of course, nice comments about Baker 🙂 )

  • C Hill

    Wisocky interview excerpt:
    —————————————————-
    Then briefly talking about your role on THE MENTALIST, how surprised were you to learn that your character Brenda was the inside mole?

    REBECCA: I’ve been on that show since the second season. They would just here and there pepper me throughout and I would breeze through and be a thorn in Lisbon’s side every now and again, and would just be vaguely annoying. Then I was around as a potential suspect at the end of Season 3. So I think it’s lovely. That show has such great fans, and has such an awesome following, and they’re such a great cast and the writers are so good. I think it’s really smart that you have someone around who is just laying in wait as part of their world that you can then reveal to have a secret, hidden agenda. That’s been playing another angle all along. I just think that’s great storytelling, and when you have that kind of show with that kind of following, and has been that kind of successful lengthy run, you can afford yourself that. They’ve got lots of little ticking time bombs lying around, I’m sure. I’m not speaking out of turn, but I am saying I guess I turned out to be one, didn’t I? (Laughs) As an actor, you’re always delighted. The juicier the material, the better. And I certainly don’t shy away from playing difficult or even unlikable characters. I enjoy doing whatever needs to be done to tell the best story.

    Did you have a hard time saying goodbye to the character of Brenda?

    REBECCA: I don’t know if it’s goodbye, she’s not dead yet! (Laughs) She’s in prison. Though I don’t know if Brenda Shettrick will fare too well in prison. It will be interesting. Maybe she’ll thrive and she’ll actually find love there. Who knows. I don’t know anything other than I’d love the chance to play with that crew again.

    In portraying Brenda, what would be a favorite memory or scene?

    REBECCA: That last episode was pretty fun. It was great. I’ll say this, in all of the episodes I had done, I had never been on screen with Simon Baker until that last episode. So finally being in the hot-seat and interrogated by him at the bitter end there, that was great. He’s pretty awesome.

  • Auli

    C Hill: I’m not either 100 % sure (Bertram is n. 2 for me and he is tricky) but I think with all the clues we know now, I would go for Haffner. I also believe that Reed Diamond could pull of RJ.

    And damn, I thought that I don’t have anything to add. Well, this is a great way to procrastinate with school and work stuff that need to be done next week before my summer holiday. 😀

  • C Hill

    well it is a pleasant form of procrastination, auli! 🙂

    round 1 of Rebecca’s interview didn’t take. Here’s the first part..I hope!
    ———————————————
    Then briefly talking about your role on THE MENTALIST, how surprised were you to learn that your character Brenda was the inside mole?

    REBECCA: I’ve been on that show since the second season. They would just here and there pepper me throughout and I would breeze through and be a thorn in Lisbon’s side every now and again, and would just be vaguely annoying. Then I was around as a potential suspect at the end of Season 3. So I think it’s lovely. That show has such great fans, and has such an awesome following, and they’re such a great cast and the writers are so good. I think it’s really smart that you have someone around who is just laying in wait as part of their world that you can then reveal to have a secret, hidden agenda. That’s been playing another angle all along. I just think that’s great storytelling, and when you have that kind of show with that kind of following, and has been that kind of successful lengthy run, you can afford yourself that. They’ve got lots of little ticking time bombs lying around, I’m sure. I’m not speaking out of turn, but I am saying I guess I turned out to be one, didn’t I? (Laughs) As an actor, you’re always delighted. The juicier the material, the better. And I certainly don’t shy away from playing difficult or even unlikable characters. I enjoy doing whatever needs to be done to tell the best story.

  • windsparrow

    I love this re-cap of the season, violet. I especially like the bit about the 7 suspects and the 7 deadly sins and the character growth of each of the team (Lisbon’s most of all).

    One thing that I enjoyed about the season was Jane and Lisbon getting closer to each other as genuine partners. I think that is the key. Whether he likes it or not, Jane is starting to re-grow the neural connections between his intellect and the full range of his emotions.

  • suzjazz

    I loved the seven deadly sins, violet! Well done!
    I never would have thought of it, and it fits. (I still can’t decide who RJ is, and I’m thinking maybe it’s one of the suspects we know the least about, e.g. Smith and McAllister?)

    My wish list has two main parts:

    1) A believable explanation for the big mentalist magic trick that Red John pulled off in the finale. I really doubt that anyone is a “real” psychic on TM, and it would astonish me if the writers went in that direction. I don’t like Lisbon thinking that maybe RJ *is* psychic. She’s too smart for that. And when it comes time to confront RJ, I hope it’s Lisbon who kills him.

    2) Have Jane and Lisbon kiss already, for God’s sake! It’s just not believable that Jane could have sex with Lorelei, ask Kristina out on a date, and kiss Erica, and never do any of the above with Lisbon! The only woman he knows whom he could really love and have a new life with. And please don’t wait until RJ is dead. He already knows they love each other, so why can’t they come clean with each other and start something BEFORE the final episode? I have to admit I do not have high hopes for the romance arc. The show has always been dark despite its streaks of humor, and season 5 was the darkest by far. From what Heller and both the lead actors have said in interviews, I’m reading between the lines that they don’t want or intend a romance to develop between J and L. Why, I have no idea–except maybe that they don’t want a happy ending to the saga. And they all seem to love this idiotic “sibling relationship” idea, which is so obviously false now. Much as I love Robin Tunney’s acting, I’d like to punch her in the nose because she is currently *still* talking about J and L being siblings. It gets me madder than any TV plot has ever done, and I’m starting to think I have no life because I’ve allowed it to affect me so deeply.

    I’d also like to see the return of characters like Hightower (I loved her) maybe LaRoche again, and Rosalind (what happened to Rosalind?)
    Again, I’m not getting my hopes up, because it seems that the writers are fixated on Jane and Red John and very little else (Rosalind could at least be linked to RJ again, maybe instrumental in his capture?) It would be great if Charlotte Jane appeared again in Jane’s dream, or maybe another foray into belladonna tea–“Devil’s Cherry” remains my favorite season 5 episode.

    Maybe the writers will surprise us by actually giving us what we want! 🙂

  • Agnes

    Many thanks for this excellent review.

    While I would like to know what happened to various people, especially Hightower, my particular wish list would include:

    Red John being from Jane’s past (this looks quite probable) and already an enemy before Jane’s notorious tv interview so that the interview was not the reason for the killing of Angela and Charlotte but just a sort of sick excuse and therefore Jane was not really to blame at all. He could then forgive himself and really tell Teresa he loves her.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @Ifrah: Thank you very much! Can’t say how happy your comment makes me! 😀

    @ Anomaly wrote “Even if they truly want to show a definite conclusion to a story, believing that has become difficult for me! Take for example LaRoche’s box contents, as I mentioned in a vanished post before, it’s just like ‘Schrodinger’s cat’ to me, full of uncertainty, or I’m not certain that the Volker and Brenda’s stories came to an end (the abrupt conclusion to Volker’s story and Brenda telling Jane that he doesn’t know the first thing about her…), also endings of the stories of other characters you enumerated, all can be a very fertile ground for some brilliant episodes for the next season, or could be detrimental to the coherence of the story as tying them all up nicely does not seem to be an easy task!”

    I agree with you. Actually, they started doing it since the very beginning of the show: many arc/lose end tied up opened another one, or was once again alluded to later… the real definite conclusions are not very frequent: take Dr Wagner, for instance, in the pilot. He was arrested, got to jail for a double murder and fraud, and made a reappearence during ‘Ball of Fire’, where the daughter of another murderer (arrested with Jane’s help, but not featured in one episode) took revenge on Jane. That means that two cases were solved by the team, yet none of those stories ended with the arrest… Same with Lisbon’s storylines: in ‘Red Badge’, she was accused of killing a child rapist she arrested when she was younger, and her past also came haunting her with Bosco’s presence in the CBI. It almost looks like that for her either, the past is never truly in the past… Same with other people who came back after a first appearence, without becoming recurring characters: Kristina, Erica, Mashburn, LaRoche, Minelli. And the many characters presented as if they would be willing to interact again with Jane (the con woman in ‘Miss Red’, Dr Montague). I mean, it’s rather usual for a TV show to let open some doors in order to use them as opportunities for new storylines, yet in TM it’s seems to be someting pretty systematic.
    I wonder to what extent that could hint at Jane’s state of mind: the man is obsessed with his past, and things never really end for him, since he’s been chasing for ten years after the ghost ofhis own lost happiness and after an elusive killer… May then the unfinished/re-opened storylines hint at that particular trait of the protagonist?

    “I gather that they are going to serialize the story and put less emphasis on the case of the week in season 6 and more on Jane/RJ chase and end this arc”

    I hope so, at least, for it would be a bit unrealistic to let Jane wander at crime scenes and taunt witnesses and suspects as if nothing was going on, when his nemesis has clearly stated that he was going to start killing people who matter or had mattered to him… They need to hurry up, and try and catch him. I think (hope) that they’ll play it in more of less the same way they did before (‘Redacted’), with cases being handled by the team and Lisbon, Jane giving precious insight when needed and Lisbon covering up for him when a new lead presents itself in their parallel investigation on RJ. It wouldn’t be wise to let down the cases completely in the storylines, because the team still don’t know about their plans, yet focusing too much on them would be pretty difficult. Unless their cases are almost only RJ’s murrders, of course… That would be pretty gloomy…

    Thanks for your really great comment, Anomaly! 🙂

  • Taissa

    “Red John being from Jane’s past (this looks quite probable) and already an enemy before Jane’s notorious tv interview so that the interview was not the reason for the killing of Angela and Charlotte but just a sort of sick excuse and therefore Jane was not really to blame at all. He could then forgive himself and really tell Teresa he loves her.”

    Imagine if RJ is from that family that bought the “healling crystal” from Jane and his father! That would be a good reason to hate someone, especially if the girl died.

  • zee

    Count me in as a fan of Violet’s ‘theory of sevens’.

    One more thought I had that they particularly had seven suspects for Red John was because of the highly popular “Magical Number Seven in Psychology”. In a nutshell, it just means, on average, our brains have the capacity to remember 7 things for info process. (on hindsight, maybe it was intentional by the producers).

    I find this psychology theory alludes nicely to the ‘faith’ theme of the show.

    Fake psychics/ mentalists (like Jane) might go for the said theory above, while people who have kept faith or real psychics consider a more supernatural theory.

    But Violet, for what is worth, you just made my wish list to include real psychics in the show, just so they can use one of your ‘theory of sevens’.

  • phoenixx

    Agnes wrote: “Red John being from Jane’s past (this looks quite probable) and already an enemy before Jane’s notorious tv interview so that the interview was not the reason for the killing of Angela and Charlotte but just a sort of sick excuse and therefore Jane was not really to blame at all.”

    Exactly what I’m thinking for a long time how it should be. That they know each other for way longer and the interview just was the final straw for RJ.

    @violet: Like the rest mentioned great take on the 7 suspects/7 deadly sins take, I too think it’s no coincidence it’s exactly 7.

    My No.1 RJ suspect is still Haffner, and a lot of people already wrote why. He’s in a quite normal position not too high up but has surveillance expertise (could explain why he knows so much + the list), also .he actually tried to get along with Jane when he took over but Jane than made it impossible and that seriously miffed him. Could be an explanation to the “why you didn’t became friends when you shook hands” thing.

    No. 2 though is still Bertram for me, simply because I think it would be a nice circle to the S3 finale. And explain a lot of what happened there.

    Saw an interview with Emmanuelle Chriqui on CTV, accroding to her Lorelei is really dead, the way she said that it was fun while it lastet didn’t sound anyway suspicious or like “well maybe I’m coming back”.
    And if they planned on having her in a some sort of unraveling episode I think they’d have made sure to get her signed already.

    My personal wish for S6 and what will hopefully happen since it’s supposed to contain more action, I want to see Lisbon tackle and punch someone again (or even some more guys if possible)

  • C Hill

    hey all my old posts showed up! sorry 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Still working my way through the comments, sorry for the delay! Truthfully, I was a bit afraid I’d been totally over thinking it with the seven deadly sins part, so I’m really glad so many of you found it convincing! 🙂

    @ Rita: “I know he says it is the only ones with whom he has shaken hands and who fit sertain criteria regarding RJ’s crimes….I want to know WHAT criteria.”

    Speaking of handshakes, I might be mistaken, but I’m not even sure we actually saw Jane shook hands with many of the seven suspects… Has someone been tracking down the actual handshakes? not only when they were introduced, but even later on, when saying goodbye/congratulating/thanking/meeting again or whatever occasion? I wonder if there’s something in here…
    Also, thanks for your very kind words, Rita! 🙂

    @Auli: Your analysis of Haffner’s character is pretty convincing. Plenty of great arguments! You’re right, it’s very possible that they would go for the most normal guy among the suspects. It’s quite often the less suspicious character who did it in classic murder mysteries… Haffner also reminds a bit of Carter, who was very normal-looking: like Todd Johnson and Gupta, for instance, the man had a very ordinary life on the outside (happy family life, like Todd… and a seemingly uneventful and respected public life like Gupta had running his shop). Yet, Carter was even more disturbing than O’Laughlin, who just tried to kill in cold-blood his fiancée’s boss: part was due to Bradley Whitford’s talent, but it was also a consequence of the creepy contrast with RJ’s crimes which made Carter’s humanity even more cold-hearted and monstrous… Either way, Heller might have just paved the way for someone seemingly inoffensive like Haffner to be the big bad guy with the words he put in Carter’s mouth: “Vengeance, on what? Look at me! I’m just a regular guy! You thought I’d have horns, right? I’m not a monster. I’m not a devil. I’m just another human being with flaws and vices and problems just like anybody else.”
    Also, it’s somewhat intriguing that Haffner is the only one among the suspects Lisbon felt at ease with, at least before being privy to his connection to Visualize: he was the only one who she willingly spent private time with, without complaining. Indeed, even though she liked Kirkland at first and easily teamed up with him to find Jane in ‘Red Sails in the Sunset’, when things got more personal, she found him disturbingly odd. Same with Bertram: she wasn’t that at ease when he asked her about his defeat at poker… Still, she was rather smug when Haffner called her in front of Jane… and he was the only one who Lisbon suspected of being at the farm at the time of the murders: she was shocked when Jane told her that Bertram was on the list and she only told Jane that Kirkland was “odd”, which is pretty tame, given that we know the man killed Lennon, spied on her meeting with her boss and broke into Jane’s attic… Thus, Haffner has a special status: he gives off friendly vibes (unlike the six others, who are just plain creepy, one way or another), yet someone perceptive like Lisbon might find him highly suspicious, to the point of wondering aloud about his presence at a crime scene when he was a “kid”…

    @North Coat: Thanks! 😀 I hope you’re right: I can’t picture either Lisbon really believing in that psychic stuff, after the initial shock. I mean, she’s religious, but that doesn’t make her superstitious, and it would be even more disturbing since she’s been learning Jane’s tricks and is on her way to master his mentalist skills some day. After all those years working closely with Jane and watching how he and his mind tricks work, the idea that she’d still be capable of being outsmarted by a clever illusion without wondering about it would be a bit unnerving.

    Windsparrow wrote: “One thing that I enjoyed about the season was Jane and Lisbon getting closer to each other as genuine partners. I think that is the key. Whether he likes it or not, Jane is starting to re-grow the neural connections between his intellect and the full range of his emotions.”

    I just love that. Thanks, Windsparrow, and I hope you’re right: the guy just needs to be more in touch with his emotions, instead of just hole up in his attic/obsession. 🙂

    (Since it’s a bit complicated to thank every commenter individually without reply buttons, I just want to express my gratitude to all of you! Thanks you for your support! 😉 )

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks a lot for your great response Violet, very kind of you! By the way regarding that long running orchid theme, I just noticed something that am not sure if anybody has mentioned before or not: back in 3×3,’The Blood on His Hands’, there are some white orchids visible behind Stiles when he and Jane are talking in his office and of course on Van Pelt’s desk, too. Also there is another flower, not quite as prominent as orchids, nonetheless found everywhere in Visualize HQ and that is Strelitzia (bird of paradise), in the lecture hall where Stiles gives his lectures in this episode and in 2×20,’Red All Over’, best seen in a long shot of the meeting Jane and Lisbon had with Jason Cooper in 5×13, ‘The Red Barn’, probably nothing significant, but who knows?!

  • phoenixx

    @violet: “Speaking of handshakes, I might be mistaken, but I’m not even sure we actually saw Jane shook hands with many of the seven suspects…”

    No we didn’t but I never thought that was so important, after all we can’t have seen him shaking hands with everyone who was in his book (Just think about all the years before the CBI). So the fact we haven’t seen him shaking hands with every suspect is believable. I mean he probably shook hands with a lot of people he met on crime scenes.

  • C Hill

    anomoly, not to mention the white roses (i think) that might be a Lisbon theme. they certainly showed up during the second mashburn ep. as i noted, i think a study of flowers in the mentalist might prove, at least, interesting.

    i’ve also noticed white orchids showing up on Van Pelt’s desk during several seasons, not just the glaring/ominous one after she returned from leave in S5.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Phoenixx wrote “No we didn’t but I never thought that was so important, after all we can’t have seen him shaking hands with everyone who was in his book (Just think about all the years before the CBI). So the fact we haven’t seen him shaking hands with every suspect is believable. I mean he probably shook hands with a lot of people he met on crime scenes.”

    Yes, of course it’s believable, but I was more thinking along the lines of the particular insight an handshake on screen would have. I mean, so far, I only recall Jane shaking hands with Kirkland, precisely because Bob wanted to meet him. There was something like a kind of provocation in Kirkland’s attitude, in shaking Jane ‘s hand without actually introducing himself, a bit of a power play. So I wonder if there are some other connotations in possible handshakes: we know he did shake hands with the six others, yet it has a very different meaning if it’s as an act of gratitude (after Jane helped Bertram or Brett, or after they helped him), or as a goodbye after solving a successfull case, or during another circumstance…

    Thanks a lot Anomaly and C Hill for the great flower references! Looking ito it! 🙂

    (Also, I realized a letter is missing in North Coast’s username in one of my comments… sorry, my computer is acting up and some letters tend to disappear… argh… and sorry for any other mistake: I wrote this in a hurry! 😉 )

  • suzjazz

    One small but significant point: Wasn’t it Lorelei who said that she was surprised they didn’t become best friends after they shook hands–and therefor she must have been there to observe it? This is the kind of thing someone says when they are *present* at the scene. Now that Lorelei is dead, she can’t be interrogated. But it is more than likely that the handshake took place in Lorelei’s presence, which would eliminate Kirkland, Bertram, and Hafner (because we see them shaking hands with Jane and Lorelei isn’t there.) She might have been at Visualize watching from the sidelines when Stiles shook hands with Jane, though. I don’t remember seeing Jane shake hands with Partridge, and if she was there when Jane shook hands with Smith and McAllister, I didn’t see her. Of course, RJ could have *told* Lorelei that he shook hands with Jane, and it might even have been a lie. Which means it could have been any of the suspects. I can’t wait until Sept. for season 6! I want answers!

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, those white roses! Why haven’t I noticed them before?! 🙂 You’re quite right C Hill, camera clearly moved in such a way as to stress on their presence. Great eye, especially at avoiding distractions!

    Although I’m quite clueless about flowers and the delicate meanings each one conveys, it would be more than interesting to have a study about them, and so it’s really great news that Violet is going to have a look into it! 🙂

  • phoenixx

    About the “white roses” and them being a Lisbon theme, i found this and it’s quite interesting, long but so true for Lisbon (especially in context with her relationship to Jane):

    “The meaning of shimmering white roses is not very hard to decipher if you go by their appearance. The color white has always been synonymous with purity and virtue. And so, sincerity, purity, and chastity are some of the obvious meanings of a white rose. When you need to convince that your affections are straight from the heart and are as pure as virgin snow, use a white rose. But there are more hidden meanings in a white rose than meets the eye.

    White has ever been a symbol of innocence, of a world unspoiled and untarnished. The meaning of a bunch of glowing white roses is innocence and spiritual love. The white rose glorifies a love that is unaware of the temptations of the flesh and resides only in the soul. As opposed to the red rose that speaks of passionate promises, the meaning of a white rose is in its simplicity and pristine purity.

    Sometimes called “the flower of light”, one of the meanings of white roses is everlasting love – love stronger than death, an eternal love, undying and all sustaining. White rose speaks of a love that is sustained more by loyalty, reverence and humility than by red-blooded passion. So, in its capacity to worship someone till death, the meaning of a white rose is unchanging loyalty that endures beyond all else.

    In the “language of the flowers” the meaning of white roses is “I am worthy of you”. The meaning of the white rose will not be lost on a groom when he sees his bride’s eyes filled with unchanging love and loyalty, a promise to stand by him through all.

    This and later myths about Aphrodite display the dual nature of love: purity and innocence represented by white roses; desire and sexual gratification by red ones.
    In one story she runs to help her wounded lover Adonis and catches her flesh on the thorns of the white rose bush. Her blood falling on the bush turns the roses red, symbolizing the way innocence and purity change to experience and motherhood. “

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Thanks for your encouraging words, Anomaly! 🙂
    And thanks again C Hill, the white flowers are pretty interesting… I don’t really know if they’re roses or tulips, but the color white is really stressed on, indeed! Great eye for details! I also wanted to ask you: did you spot other occurrences of white flowers more or less linked to Lisbon in other episodes? There ought to have more of them, I think, but I can’t seem to find that many… 😉

  • C Hill

    i seem to recall some as well, though, like you, violet, i haven’t found much yet. there were just so many at the end of that episode. they could be tulips, yes.

    the only other recent white flower that comes to mind is on the wall at the crime scene in 5×22 — yeah, that white flower picture 🙂

  • Rose UK

    “Dear Patrick Jane/Simon Baker (whichever),

    Please grow your hair back a bit.

    Love,

    Everyone.”

  • Rose UK

    Sorry; had to get that out there. 😉

    Great review, Violet. Brilliant comments, everyone! Need some time to process them all now…

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Lol, I think that’s actually my favorite wish for season 6 so far! 😀 Thanks Rose!

    And thanks a lot, C Hill! 🙂

  • III Frogs

    I like it longer too Rose UK — because it curls like a fiend! xD

  • Rose UK

    I love the 7 Deadly Sins idea; I wonder if we can now apply the 7 Holy Virtues to our team? Hm, what have we got…

    Chastity, Temperance/Abstinence, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility.

    Perhaps we can’t quite ascribe one virtue to each separate character as Violet did with the suspects, but we certainly see these virtues play out across the team. Chastity: until Lorelei, Jane was famously chaste. Lisbon too, more or less. (Obviously depends if you view this as a virtue or not). Temperance: we see Lisbon deliberately avoid taking a drink in one episode; numerous references to her alcoholic father. Patience: again, Lisbon! Diligence, kindness & charity: the team. Humility: Jane’s big lesson to learn; perhaps the root of his downfall. With the mirroring theme, this also makes me wonder whether it will be RJ’s own hubris or pride that leads to *his* downfall (i.e. essentially making the same mistake as Jane). There is a precedent for this in literature, and people have remarked on several occasions how TM has elements of the Greek tragedy about it. (And if we follow the ‘pride comes before a fall’ path, then this would point to Stiles. Not necessarily my bet, though!)

    Also: if the deadly sins idea holds up, I wonder whether RJ – as the personification of evil – will be revealed to have elements of ALL these sins i.e. BE all of these people. This goes back to the multiple-person theory (and, incidentally, ** SPOILER ALERT** is one of the plots for a famous Agatha Christie novel).

    Just a thought. 😉

    @ Auli (Phoenixx, others?): That’s some argument for Haffner! Despite what I just wrote, I am almost convinced. (I’m reserving judgement till next season). 😉

    @ Violet: Fab summary of the season; I really like the way you’ve looked at the beginnings and ends of things. I’m not sure I have much more to add, so here’s my brief wish list:

    1) Come back Minelli, Hightower, Erika (or Brooke Harper in her stead), Mashburn and JJ! I want to see how Jane & Lisbon’s character development makes them react to these other characters now. I’m also intrigued by the creepy doctor in the pilot, actually. I feel like there could be more there (imaginings?). Jane hates doctors and hospitals – why? His psychiatric problems?

    2) Which brings me to… Yes, more back story! We are our pasts, too, and perhaps fleshing out Jane’s background will give us more clues as to RJ.

    3) Tying up loose ends: Let’s re-visit the pony, shall we? It must be the animal lover in me, but I feel like I need to see it frolicking happily in a field somewhere. 😉 Lisbon’s 3 secrets revealed.

    4) No more absurd minion deaths.

    5) Some more juicy motifs and themes we can get our teeth into.

    6) A bit more seasons 1-3 light-heartedness. I understand that J & L’s relationship has shifted to a deeper place, but I do miss all those little fond smiles he used to give her. It feels like he’s afraid to do that now, which is kind of a shame for me at least.

    7) Cho going back to basics: reading books we can analyse, one-liners, maybe another undercover job (a la Crimson Casanova, which is one of my favourite eps!)

    8) Grace going undercover at Visualise/the plot bringing in her computer skills more. I think that would be fascinating…

    I could go on, but this has already turned into a huge post! Sorry. I had a bit of a ReviewBrain blog withdrawal and am clearly now binge-posting. 😉

  • Rose UK

    @ Frogs: ahaha!

  • Rose UK

    @ Phoenixx: That’s gorgeous, I love that. Also fits in with the “chastity” virtue I just mentioned for Lisbon. We often see the colour green on her, too (I think that’s been referenced a few times on here), and I just looked up its symbolic meaning:

    Self-respect, harmony, balance. Spring, rebirth, renewal. Healing, nurturing, hope and growth…. All things that you could totally apply to Lisbon and what she brings to Jane and indeed the people around her. And on the negative side: envy, overly cautious and a little judgmental.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Suzjazz : I don’t think Lorelei would have witnessed the handshake, because Jane would have remembered her (memory palace…). Actually, it’s the kind of things RJ could have bragged about: something along the lines of “the fool didn’t even suspect it was me; all those years wasting away and I’m right under his nose; he shook the hands that cut open his little girl and painted his wife’s toenails with her own blood; I’m so much smarter than him…” and so on. Given his attitude towards Lorelei (offering her to Jane as a gift, while she still was his mistress, not killing her when she was caught and being so angry at having to get rid of her), we can guess she was special to him: I can see her being his confident… after all, she told Lisbon that she had heard a lot about her, and it’s certainly RJ who commented on her.
    Truth be told, I thought at first that it lessened Kirkland’s chances of being RJ, since he only officially met the team after Lorelei was hidden away. But, now I realize Kirkland, as a Homeland Security agent, could have easily visited her in jail (for what we know, he could even be that “agent Nemo” who took her): that would fit with Lorelei thinking it was RJ who helped her escape, if he told her he would do something…

    Also, it may very well be just me, but there’s something intriguing in that fateful handshake with a killer: in a way, it reminds a bit of Lady Macbeth and her obsession with the blood on her hands… As it’s been said before, there is a recurrent connection with that character and the storyline: she’s been alluded to many times.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Thanks a lot, Phoenixx! That was the meaning I was associating with those white flowers: they illustrate Lisbon’s qualities (Saint Teresa), in contrast with various women on the show who, like Erica, are “femmes fatales”. 🙂
    (Actually, I’m planning on including a part about flowers in the post about the major themes in the show (still working on it…). If you, or C Hill (or anyone else, of course) have more ideas to share about flowers, don’t hesitate, you’re more than welcome! 🙂 )

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Rose wrote: “Chastity: until Lorelei, Jane was famously chaste. Lisbon too, more or less. (Obviously depends if you view this as a virtue or not). Temperance: we see Lisbon deliberately avoid taking a drink in one episode; numerous references to her alcoholic father. Patience: again, Lisbon! Diligence, kindness & charity: the team. Humility: Jane’s big lesson to learn; perhaps the root of his downfall”

    Oh, interesting idea! What’s even more intriguing, is that every one of those qualities are found in Lisbon’s character indeed: temperance, because she stopped the drinking habit she started after Bosco’s death (the tequila bottle in her desk drawer). Diligence (workaholic), kindness (her empathy with people), charity (helping Jane when he came to her in ‘Red Dawn’ because she took pity on him), humility (not realizing people look up to her and/or care about her, like Bosco): she truly is Saint Teresa… She even refused attractive billionaire Walter’s advances at first, which would count as a form of chastity.
    And, amusingly, Jane seems to lose a bit of those virtues when his nemesis is involved: chastity with Lorelei, as you pointed out, Rose; temperance when he ends up drunk because of RJ (in ‘Red Rover, Red Rover’ and in ‘The Crimson Hat’); patience when he takes reckless decisions because he’s about to catch RJ, hence sabotaging a carefully prepared scheme (hiring a robber to break in LaRoche’s house; shooting Carter when he couldn’t prove he was RJ; same in ‘The Crimson Hat’). He loses diligence when he refuses to work cases in order to work on his list. Even though he’s proven that he’s no stranger to kindness and charity (and /or helping others), he tends to become crueler when things don’t go well concerning RJ (he was particularly mean after Kristina’s disappearance for instance). And, yes, humility: proving who’s the smarter is a big part of the game he accepted to play with the serial killer…
    I don’t know if those seven virtues (or even the deadly sins) really work in the show, still I find it very interesting that they seem to symbolize the two routes Jane can chose, the two influences in his life: redemption, with his saint of a partner, and the evil friendship offered by RJ whose goal has been obviously to corrupt him (until this finale, that is)…

  • Rose UK

    Ah yes, Violet; I love it! Once again the theme of duality/opposition – which runs throughout the entire series – is expressed in a slightly different way here, via this idea of sins and virtues. I mean, I think it works regardless of whether or not the sins & suspects model was intended. I love the idea that there are two paths that Jane could follow – that idea has been around since the pilot, and we are on tenterhooks to see what decision he makes to that effect. I love that Lisbon embodies all those virtues, whilst Jane *could* if only he followed her lead. Gosh, I love those two even more now. 😉 By the way, I am always reminded of that brief scene in which Jane tosses a coin into the air and we see it from above, looking down on it (and him) as it spins upward – and which way up will it land??? Saint or sinner? Devil or angel on the shoulder? Come on, Jane, pick the right path!

  • Rose UK

    Wish list ctnd…

    9) Totally agree with North Coast re: teamwork. So important now. They’re family, after all. 🙂 Jane needs to learn to trust them too – as Frogs said, a lack of information and communication at this point could prove disastrous.

    10) Forgot about Kristina Frye & Rosalind. I’d like to see the team follow up some of these old leads again.

  • Auli

    I just love to read about the flower theme. I wouldn’t even have notice it without this site!

    Rose: Oh yes to longer hair for Simon Baker!

    I’d like to add one more wish for my list. I hope that we would get more episodes written by Heller himself in season 6 besides the season premier and the finale. It is his show and he just knows and writes the characters best.

  • suzjazz

    @Rose UK:
    I am also experiencing Reviewbrain commentary withdrawal.
    So I may end up blathering just to remain connected to the community.
    I also wish SImon Baker would grow his hair longer again. He’d be outrageously sexy even with his head shaved, but longer hair suits him.
    I love your comment about the pony: I often find myself absurdly wondering where Lisbon keeps the pony. I read a fanfic in which Lisbon lives in a house (not a condo) with a yard (or as you say in Britain, a garden) and the pony is prancing around in an enclosure.

    Re the saint/sinner commentary: I find it fascinating, and even if BH did not imbue the characters with these meanings, the show lends itself to this analysis. The dichotomy between sinning and sainthood is not always clearly defined–traditionally, for example, chastity is considered a virtue. Yet while Jane’s chastity is by choice (honoring his wife, self-punishment) Lisbon’s appears to be the result of circumstances more than anything else: she can’t seem to get a relationship started with anyone because of her feelings for Jane. She dates occasionally and there was the Mashburn one-nighter, so it’s not for lack of trying. When Jane has his one sexual experience with Lorelei, it comes about because of his plan to get her to spill about RJ. In his mind, that’s all it is. However, he later admits to liking her, and there is a revenge bond between them. There may even have been ordinary lust involved!

    In effect, though, both Lisbon and Jane are chaste 99% of the time, which is pretty good in a time period spanning 10 years. It’s also worth noting that they are both subject to some of the seven deadly sins as well as the virtues: envy, wrath (“Be the voice of wrath, Lisbon!”) pride, lust, and in Jane’s case, sloth, though no one could accuse Lisbon of being slothful! Jane spends a lot of time on the couch claiming to be “thinking.” I think the only sin they don’t fall prey to is gluttony, although excessive drinking has certainly been a problem at times for both.

    Vice and virtue are interwoven in the human psyche.

  • Rose UK

    @ Suz: Ha, I know! So glad there are others out there also fixated on this issue. It is so ridiculous that I am more bothered about a brief cameo appearance by a pony than I am about the show’s gaping plot holes. 😉

    You’re right about J & L being prone to some of those vices, although I would argue that neither Jane nor Lisbon are particularly lustful. The sloth parallel is a good one for Jane, I think, especially in terms of “spiritual apathy” as defined in the Wiki article.

    @) Auli: That’s a good one! Perhaps with more Bruno, the episodes would be less seemingly disjointed, too.

  • C Hill

    hey, violet, doing a “quick” flower inventory — i have every ep but maybe 3 in season 3. looking at 5×14 at the moment — a nice shot of bertram at 1:15 with white roses (and other items) in frame….not sure if it means anything though 🙂

    would love to see the pony make an appearance but i wouldn’t wager on it happening.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Thank you so much, C Hill!!! 🙂
    Actually, I see the flower in the frame as a pink rose, but it’s rather hard to tell… Either way, you made me realize that there seems to be another theme involving flowers, landscapes and generally nature featured in frames during many episodes. It looks like the first is the rose behind Bertram that you pointed out in ‘Red in Tooth and Claws’(S5E14), right after ‘The Red Barn’, and the trail keeps going until the finale: in ‘Red Lacquer Nail Polish’ (S5E15), there are marines and the nephew is an “impressionist”-although his paintings look more like simple landscapes-; in ‘There Will Be Blood’ (S5E16) during the little chat at Orchid Lane between Jane and Lorelei, we can see a painting of irises (I think), then there’s the painting representing an orchid-looking flower behind Partridge in ‘Red John’s Rules’ (S5E22)… Plus, there the fossils in ‘Red in Teeth and Claws’ and in ‘There Will Be Blood’, and the posters for the show “Torch” in ‘Behind the Red Curtain’ (S5E18) and for the talk show in ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’ (S5E20). And the fish on the saloon wall in ‘Red Letter Day’ (S5E19), echoing the marines… Thus, so far, it seems that there is only one episode where there’s nothing intriguing on the wall (that is ‘Red, White and Blue’)… Or am I missing something?
    Since those paintings/fossils/… ornate walls since ‘The Red Barn’, I wonder if they are not meant to subtly remind of the huge smiley painted on the outside wall of the barn. Then, the theme would come full circle in the finale, with the last smiley above Eileen’s body. It wouldn’t be the first time RJ is mentioned by a painting, since Jane admired Rubens’ ‘Tiger and Lion Hunt’ in ‘Bloodstream’; the added bonus here is that many of those elements also allude to other themes (the sea, orchids ,…). Or am I reading way too much into this?

    Also, about the pony, I wouldn’t be surprised if we’d be told one day what Lisbon did with it: after all, we’ve seen where the vanished red couch from Lisbon’s office landed (and Benjamin might even have been conceived on it)… So, who knows? 😉

    Thanks again C Hill! 😀

    (I hope this reply makes some sense: it’s a bit late and I almost don’t know what I’m writing anymore. Sorry for the mistakes!)

  • Carla Oliveira

    So am I with a Reviewbrain commentary withdrawal.

  • C Hill

    more later, violet, but there’s a LV Limelight cover (with Jane) next to the front door in s01e01 that is only conspicuous by its absence later in the episode. the Hollywood art folks, i think, love to play with these kind of effects — i’d love to see all of the posters they did for Red Velvet Cupcakes as we only see a few.

  • Cece

    Very late to this, but what an interesting, thoughtful write-up, Violet. Some of it I agree with, particularly your point contrasting Jane and Lorelei’s paths, and some of it I don’t- Rigsby and Rigsby/Van Pelt is a big one, but my opinion on that is unpopular. To the Lorelei/Jane contrast- I thought it was interesting that the writers chose to have Lorelei willingly to cause life-threatening (full on attempted murder, actually) injuries to innocent parties. She ended up being a possible worst case scenario for Jane. While no one wants to think of Jane doing such a thing, when he gets an attack of his Red John crazies it makes me wonder. He’s on a dangerous path, but more on that later.

    My wish list for Season 6, many items of which already been mentioned above-

    -Since this may well be the last season, I hope the Red John arc comes to head in the November or February sweeps. I want a decent amount of time for the aftermath. What comes next? What is the fallout? I’m far more interested in that than the who and the why of Red John. That said, I love @Auli for articulating why Haffner is the best Red John contender far better than I ever could. Also, Reed Diamond is a fantastic actor (See Homicide: Life on the Streets) who can do it justice. Show is definitely going for the Keyser Soze moment and he can pull it off.

    -Lots of people want Jane and Lisbon to discuss their relationship. I feel like either prior to that or at the same time they need to deal with the problems that were brought up in There Will Be Blood. Will he run off and ditch the team again once he thinks he’s got a real shot at Red John? I think those issues kind of got ignored and swept under the rug. Jane also needs to have a serious think about his priorities. We don’t know if he’s changed his mind at all about revenge and the happenings in TWBB make me think he hasn’t. It won’t mean very much if he says he’s madly in love with Lisbon if he’s still hellbent on murdering Red John in cold blood.

    -This is kind of a follow-up to the previous wish, but a fight between Jane and Lisbon that is not resolved by the end of the episode. These two have so many issues, good and bad, that need to come to the surface that I feel like this would be the best way to do it justice. Plus I really like it when Lisbon calls Jane on his crap* and it needs to happen more often.

    *He made some tremendous strides this season on sharing with Lisbon but in some ways he is as bad as ever, if not worse.

    -A real storyline for Cho. I can’t believe that despite Amanda Righetti being so limited in what she could do for the majority of the season that all Cho got was an episode and a half on the Rapid Response team and the return of Summer.

    -Rigsby, Van Pelt, and Rigsby/Van Pelt being kept to the barest of minimums. I am done with their characters and their relationship. Now all they are doing is eating up screen time for characters I enjoy and am interested in.

    -Returning characters! LaRoche, Bertram, Stiles, Mashburn, Minelli, Sean Barlow, etc. I would especially like to see Hightower and Darcy since they fall into the special category of Red John collateral damage. Red John ruined their lives, what are they up to now?

    -More humor. That was probably one of the biggest criticisms I have about season 5, there wasn’t enough of it. I know it’s a long shot in season 6 due to Red John, but I would happily settle for the darkest, blackest humor there is. Gallows humor is also fine.

    -More episodes written by Bruno Heller. Don’t get me wrong this season had some *fabulous* episodes by other writers- Devil’s Cherry, Red Dawn, Red Barn, Red In Tooth and Claw, There Will Be Blood, being my faves, but I do feel like Heller’s lack of involvement (since he was busy developing his now-dead-in-the-water pilot) did hurt this year. He wrote five episodes in season 1, which is probably a bit much to hope for, but if we could get back to 3-4 episodes a year a la seasons 2-4, I would be very happy.

    -Red John is going to start killing people again? I hope he’s bold. I want the heads that are rolling to be people we’re familiar with.

    -I think someone above may have mentioned this one but I’m in complete agreement. It’s totes superficial, but I want Simon Baker to grow his hair out a bit. He’s always handsome, but I love the slightly rumpled looking Jane of seasons 3 and 4. He is also more than welcome to keep the beard!

    Sorry this was so long, but clearly I’m greedy:)

  • Cece

    One last one that I forgot!

    -Jane needs to get punched. All he got in season 5 was a particularly vicious slap.

  • C Hill

    hey, cece, a few things:

    “-Jane needs to get punched. All he got in season 5 was a particularly vicious slap.”

    that’s a rather interesting way to describe the beating Lorelei put on him in the hotel room…

    “I thought it was interesting that the writers chose to have Lorelei willingly to cause life-threatening (full on attempted murder, actually) injuries to innocent parties”

    which innocent parties? i’m confused about this.

    also, on the superficial side, for season 6, i agree with Robin Tunney’s suggestion — fewer suits and a more “girly” outfits for Lisbon 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Unrelated to this thread, but so sweet…

  • C Hill

    thanks rose. i hadn’t seen this on youtube yet. i think from this clip it’s pretty clear, to me, that any kind of “brotherly” feelings tunney claims to have for baker won’t be a problem if things get heated in season 6 🙂

    still waiting on my response to cece i posted earlier today to show up…

  • suzjazz

    CeCe, I *so* agree with you re the following:

    -Rigsby, Van Pelt, and Rigsby/Van Pelt being kept to the barest of minimums. I am done with their characters and their relationship. Now all they are doing is eating up screen time for characters I enjoy and am interested in. [I have been infuriated by all the emphasis on their love and so little on Jane and Lisbon’s love. Enough already with them. Let’s see sparks of romance/fighting between J and L!]

    -More humor. That was probably one of the biggest criticisms I have about season 5, there wasn’t enough of it. I know it’s a long shot in season 6 due to Red John, but I would happily settle for the darkest, blackest humor there is. Gallows humor is also fine. [God do I miss the lightheartedness of seasons 1-3!]

    -A real storyline for Cho. I can’t believe that despite Amanda Righetti being so limited in what she could do for the majority of the season that all Cho got was an episode and a half on the Rapid Response team and the return of Summer. [I love Cho *so* much and he deserves better than these annoying writers have given him.]

    -This is kind of a follow-up to the previous wish, but a fight between Jane and Lisbon that is not resolved by the end of the episode. These two have so many issues, good and bad, that need to come to the surface that I feel like this would be the best way to do it justice. Plus I really like it when Lisbon calls Jane on his crap* and it needs to happen more often. [Hear hear! I want to see a return of the no B.S., kickass Lisbon]

    Hmmm….do you think they are listening?

  • suzjazz

    Rose: Your video clip didn’t work in my browser–it just appears as a big black square 😦 could you give us the link? Thanks!

  • C Hill

    suzjazz, if you post a link, wordpress embeds the video. if you search for “tunney baker kYanYhaOo4U” in the youtube search, you will find the video. it’s just 51 seconds.

  • C Hill

    i guess i’ll try my cece reply again…

    on jane getting hit: i’d say the beating Lorelei gave him was more than a slap

    on Lorelei hurting innocent people: whom? everyone she got had a hand in the RJ pie, right?

    on superficial wishes: i agree with Robin Tunney — I’d like to see Lisbon in a few “girly” outfits in S6 🙂

  • C Hill

    another little tidbit. i’m going through episodes looking for little things, including flowers, and was struck by one of my favorite eps, s01e09, Red Flame — “The Moby Dick Episode”.

    The end of that episode is great, Fred Koehler does an awesome job with the reveal. And as his character Tommy Olds and Jane discuss revenge, it struck me that that entire scene/episode is a bit of a microcosm of the search for RJ –and we are shown that someone can put on a very convincing act to conceal their own true identity. Coincidence or foreshadow?

  • rita

    C Hill, I too have just watched that episode again….it helps with the summer break!!….and I thought exactly the same….wonderful acting from Fred Koehler, and a chance to see someone hiding in plain sight…I would be surprised if Red John is one of the obvious ones….he will be the little mouse more likely to be overlooked while he is pulling the strings…..I have to say that that ‘reveal scene’ was one of the best pieces of acting that I have ever seen.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think Jane a kind of learned a lesson after TWBB. He was soft in the rear episodes. I liked him in season finale; he wasn’t with those same crazy eyes when RJ is concerned; he was calm down, careful with Lisbon, didn’t try some kind of mess. I don’t know it’s a feeling. I hope he goes on this way in season 6. I also think some issues between him and Lisbon was resolved even a little somehow or it doesn’t make sense the subsequent episodes.
    By the way, I felt that they turned out being closer; it was I saw in season finale, though it’s a mystery to me. I feel like some is missing…
    I do disagree with who said Jane is slouch. He doesn’t sleep well tonight, it is okay he can have some nap in the work. I also am an insomnia victim. I wish I could have some nap lunch time. I try, but I can’t.
    Ah, I also want to Jane’s hair to grow his hair out and keep the beard!
    Sorry, guys if seeing too much or too little and if I had some language mistakes. English is not my mother language. I have to study too much more.

  • Rose UK

    Definitely inclined to agree with you, C Hill and Rita; that episode is great in terms of the ‘microcosm’, as C Hill aptly puts it! I have also wondered whether it will ultimately foreshadow a kind of ‘Great and Powerful Oz’ reveal, only instead of a mild-mannered magician we get a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The way the actor sheds one persona and slips into an entirely new one is absolutely chilling to watch. Someone said in the last review that it reminded them a little of Timothy Carter’s “ordinary man” mask – in fact, most of the show’s psychopathic killers have a “decent” front which they present to society, so in my view this theory totally works.

    Incidentally, we also see a good dollop of the sin of ‘pride’ (arrogance) in this ep, which is a trait we often see in the Red John killer-minions (Tanner, Todd Johnson, etc.) as well as the common-or-garden psychopaths like Volker and Gary Philo.

    I suspect Violet will be talking about Moby Dick in her upcoming Themes post! 😉

  • Cece

    @Thanks, @SueJazz. I didn’t think anyone would agree with me regarding Rigsby and Van Pelt. Even knowing just one person does makes me feel better:)

    @C Hill, in TWBB, Lorelei shot a security guard twice in the chest, fired on another security guard and slammed her car into the back of Rigsby’s. She could have killed all three of them. She damn near did kill the one security guard. In Crimson Hat, she was seconds away from cutting off Jane’s fingers. Plus there was her role as one of Luther Wainright’s kidnappers, which in the real world would get her charged with felony murder. None of those people, as far as we know, are Red John baddies who had it coming.

    Jane may have got a bit of a beating from Lorelei, though I wasn’t impressed by her wimpy kicks to gut while wearing flimsy flats, but she didn’t punch him in the face that I recall. I don’t find it fully satisfying unless it’s a full on punch to the face:)

    “we are shown that someone can put on a very convincing act to conceal their own true identity. Coincidence or foreshadow?”

    Definite foreshadow. With all of the seven Red John canidates excepting Stiles, you wouldn’t think that they would be able to command followers to kill and die for them. Whoever Red John is, he clearly has the ability to put up a front for the outside world. The show is more than likely going for the big Keyser Soze-style reveal.

  • C Hill

    thanks Rose. Also, I’m definitely not claiming any of this as original though — there’s so much good discussion on here it’s impossible to see it all (or in my case remember what I read!).

    i’m also generating too many weird questions — like why is the personal trainer in RVC a character from Terms of Endearment? Or that Scott Saynay (also RVC) has an alias of Frederick Ross, matching a Freddie Rossini from A Dozen Red Roses…coincidence, significant, or just my own OCD 🙂

  • Cece

    My apologies if this ends up as a double post but I’m pretty sure WordPress ate my previous attempt at this reply.

    @suejazz I’m so pleasantly surprised to find out that there’s someone who agrees with me even a little bit about Rigsby and Van Pelt! It’s nice not to feel quite so alone when you have a very unpopular opinion:)

    @C Hill In TWBB, Lorelei shot a hotel security guard twice in the chest, fired on the other security guard, and puposefully slammed her car at high speed into the back of Rigsby’s car. While she may not have wanted to kill any of them, it was definitely a risk she was willing to take for her revenge.

    “we are shown that someone can put on a very convincing act to conceal their own true identity. Coincidence or foreshadow?”

    Foreshadow, definitely. With the exception of Stiles, none of the seven candidates would make anyone think that they could get a large number of people to gladly kill and die for them. Red John clearly has the ability to put on a mask of normality and come across as a mundane person. Odds are the writers are going for a big Keyser Soze style reveal with Red John.

    *offers up prayer to the WordPress gods that they will be merciful and this post will show up*

  • Rose UK

    @ C Hill: Oh, I know what you mean – hard to keep up! I like all your ‘weird’ observations – the Freddie/Fred thing is another good example of the strangely similar names that keep cropping up. Also – wouldn’t ‘rossini’ appear to be derived from the Italian word for ‘red’ (‘rosso’)? I think the writers just like to play with us. 😉

  • Cece

    @C Hill Lorelei may have beat up on Jane a bit in RSITS, but she didn’t punch him and I doubt those kicks had much impact with the flimsy flats she was wearing. What can I say, I like it when the dude gets punched in the face. Bonus points when Lisbon does the punching.

  • C Hill

    understood, cece. i think your mental images would provide interesting fodder for Chizuruchibi, though 🙂 and she just wanted to take rigsby out of play!…ha

  • suzjazz

    Speaking of violence: both Jane and Lorelei have tortured a person to get what they want. And even though these people had it coming, that still doesn’t condone torture. It’s very unsettling, but Lorelei and Jane do share some traits and not all of them are nice. A lust for revenge that will stop at nothing. I often wonder if Jane still wants to torture Red John before he kills him, or if he now realizes that torture turns him into the same monster RJ is, no matter who the victim is.

    The difference between Lorelei and Jane, besides intelligence (Jane is always the smartest guy in the room) is that Jane has not been completely destroyed by his tragedy. Lorelei got way too close to Red John, which distorted her psyche and erased most traces of human decency that she might have once had. There is a chance for redemption with Jane; it’s too late for Lorelei. (I now reluctantly agree with those who say she’s really dead, because someone associated with the show said so. So the video must have been filmed before Jane came up with his list of seven, which means somehow RJ came up with it first.) I agree with CeCe that Lorelei’s punching and kicking looked silly and ineffectual, but she was certainly a menace with a gun later on. She’s like a bad guy superhero and Lisbon is the good guy superhero (or girl). Both of them are kickass women, with Lisbon on the side of good and Lorelei evil.

    Re white roses for Lisbon: Yes, I get the purity, chastity, higher love, etc., but I wish Lisbon could be a red rose for a change. Maybe I’m reading too much Jisbony fanfic, but I think she has some lust hidden beneath those boring suits she wears. (I do love her leather jackets, tho) And speaking of girly: The few times (maybe twice or 3 times?) that we’ve seen Lisbon in a dress, she looked spectacular. Even in the bridesmaid dress which did not fit properly and made her ill at ease and awkward, she was still a beautiful “angry little princess.” And she shows some cleavage in a LBD at least one episode–this woman is a bombshell about to explode! 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Thank you so much, C Hill for your help! It’s always appreciated and those details will be really very useful! 😀

    Cece wrote: “Jane also needs to have a serious think about his priorities. We don’t know if he’s changed his mind at all about revenge and the happenings in TWBB make me think he hasn’t. It won’t mean very much if he says he’s madly in love with Lisbon if he’s still hellbent on murdering Red John in cold blood.”

    Your whole comment was very, very interesting, thanks a lot! 🙂 I tend to agree with Carla on this one: it has been stated in the show, but it’s visible that Jane’s priorities have been shifting, as his talk with Charlotte’s “ghost”/ himself has indicated. He’s started to grieve, even if he isn’t ready to acknowledge it, otherwise he wouldn’t have hallucinated his daughter as a teenager instead of the little girl he knew: he implicitly knows that her death is part of the past and that she has moved on and forgiven him (or would have if she was real). That kind of thoughts can’t go without a new perspective on other aspects of his life too. In TWBB, he acted differently, accepting to let Lisbon take control at some point, even if not fully. When you compare with his intransigent and possessive attitude in the pilot, he’s come a long way toward re-evaluating his priorities. Yet, he hasn’t made a U turn either, which makes things quite ambivalent, as always…

    About the rest of the team, I agree with you: it would be nice if Cho had at long last a fully developed arc, with an ending less bittersweet than his romance with Summer. And I don’t think Rigsby and Grace would have that much screen time in next season: it would be a bit counterproductive to get them back in situations involving drama after their adult talk (unless their relationship is meant to endanger their status in the team: it’s a possibility, since the end of the show is close). On the contrary, I wonder if they wouldn’t use this established relationship to spice things up (by comparison) with what has been building up between Lisbon and Jane, like it was hinted in the scene car in ‘Red Velvet Cupcake’: since their love has come to fruition, their boss and her consultant acquire their previous status of tension-charged couple on the show.

    I’d love for Jane to get punched again too, especially by Lisbon. It’s one of the great assets of the show, lol! 🙂 But since it has become rarer, maybe the guy has gotten better at avoiding potential aggressors, given how swiftly he ran away from Mancini… and I can see Lisbon herself getting tired of taking him to the hospital and finally teaching him to duck… 😉

    About the ‘Great and Powerful Oz’ / Keyser Soze stunt, I definitely agree with you, ladies: I have no doubt either, given those suspects, that there will be a conclusion like that at the RJ storyline… And it was certainly foreshadowed in ‘Red Flame’: the irony is that viewers would logically tend to focus on the revenge aspect of the Tommy Olds character in relation to Jane’s own obsession (reinforced by ‘Moby Dick’), instead of the other aspect, concerning RJ. Interestingly, that revenge-laden cruel murderer shows the main traits of both Jane and RJ; the synthesis of them both as the two faces of the same coin is hinted at by Olds’ two different personas.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Even sometimes I wanted punch him myself in season 5, I always got pity him when he is punched in his nose even by Lisbon; and he is so lovely in season finale… It might be something else funny, because I miss humor as well.
    I also agree with Risgby/Van Pelt wouldn’t have much screen time they are already fine.

  • windsparrow

    Violet wrote, “I’d love for Jane to get punched again too, especially by Lisbon. It’s one of the great assets of the show, lol! But since it has become rarer, maybe the guy has gotten better at avoiding potential aggressors, given how swiftly he ran away from Mancini… and I can see Lisbon herself getting tired of taking him to the hospital and finally teaching him to duck… ”

    I believe that at least half the times someone’s fist connected with Jane’s nose, Jane had purposefully provoked the violent action. His purpose often being to give Lisbon an excuse other than Jane’s suspicions to detain a suspect. The Shakespeare loving billionaire is a case in point.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Well, Jane can’t keep his mouth shut, even more when he thinks his bad-mouthing might be useful… He knows how to take one for the team, in his own little way. 🙂 I guess that if Jane were a real person, we could infer that the idea might have emanated from the punch he got in ‘Red Dawn’, which first afforded him the opportunity to get his hands on the RJ case and to follow Lisbon around. Anyway, maybe he has learnt other ways to detain suspects now. That or he has been told his nose would suffer great damage if he didn’t stop using it that way, lol… Your comment reminded me of Walter’s punch in ‘Red Hot’: Jane was almost shocked that he had hit him, even more so given that they were working together to set a trap for the real killer. Which would mean that good old Mash only wanted to punch him for fun, because the opportunity was too great to pass up. 😀

    Still, to be fair, the poor guy has be bullied in other ways: he had to investigate without his old brown shoes; he drank poisoned tea, dreamt of chasing a rabbit and had to tell Lisbon about it (which is pretty ridiculous, even more after he’d been called “a drunk uncle” …); he had to break the window of his beloved Citroen and sleep on a beach in order to help Lorelei out of jail… without mentioning he was berated like a randy teenager by a guard for it. Lisbon also made him feel silly and insecure at least twice (the stake out in ‘Black Cherry’ and when she used her hammer)… He has truly been out of his comfort zone more than once. But a punched Jane is always the best: Lisbon must be really a saint if she doesn’t feel the need to hit him at least once an episode for his stunts and his willingness to make her sing in front of cops and soldiers… 🙂

  • windsparrow

    ::laughing myself silly thinking about Jane wearing those glaring white loaner shoes::

    Well, Jane is certainly a champion at bullying himself, I’ll give you that much. A fellow who goes around making tea in strange kitchens uninvited is bound to have a few strange experiences. And as for Lisbon making him feel silly and insecure, she’s just getting a little of her own back. It’s good for him to know those feelings, as he is so content to cause them in others.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    True enough. 🙂

    “A fellow who goes around making tea in strange kitchens uninvited is bound to have a few strange experiences” : I guess until ‘Devil’s Cherry’ he thought that sniffling the food/tea he found was enough to appreciate their freshness, like in the pilot. He must have gotten more prudent now… 🙂

    And he’s quite a complex character when you think about it: he was overjoyed with the Indian headdress some time ago, yet losing his shoes always seems to make him very self conscious… I hope some day they’ll make him wear one of those old-fashioned wool vest with the tackiest pattern ever just to mess with his usual stylish three-piece suit… That would be the best revenge for the frilly pink dress he indirectly forced upon Lisbon when he managed to convince Grace that being a bridesmaid was her dearest secret dream… *That* would make him feel silly and insecure for sure… *grinning evilly*

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @Carla: I completely agree with everything you said and I think most viewers would have liked to punch him too at some moment. That’s probably why seeing him being attacked is so amusing… 🙂

    (Also, I forgot to mention it before, but concerning your previous comment, don’t worry too much about making mistakes: English is a foreign language for a lot of us too and almost all of us make some from time to time. Mine are particularly glaring… 😛 You’re doing fine!)

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thanks, Violet. I’m studying English and reading you guys it’s too much useful.

  • Reader22

    Suejazz That’s one of my hopes for season 6 we get to see Lisbon in a dress and get a real reaction from Jane. Less Rigsby/VanPelt more Cho!!

  • suzjazz

    I love all the comments about punching Jane, especially Carla’s: “I wanted to punch him myself.” I laughed at that one! Me too. There were many scenes in season 5 in which Jane’s behavior to Lisbon was so arrogant and crass that I was *begging* her to punch him for me. 🙂 But hopefully Jane will have turned over a new leaf in the next season and there will no longer be a need to hit him. I do think that the two of them need to have it out in a verbal knock-down/drag out fight. This pretending that each doesn’t love the other has to stop. It will strengthen their partnership in getting RJ if they come clean. They are spending way too much energy in keeping up a façade. That energy should be put into finding and killing RJ.

    I’m in a bit of a silly mood pre-July 4, so I’ll close with this:
    Lisbon and the Seven Suspects = Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.
    (Though as I said before I don’t at all like her being Snow White.) And the Seven Suspects may very well prove to be dwarfs except for the one who is RJ. And maybe the real RJ is after all an ugly little man–if not physically, then mentally. Just sayin’.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Suzjazz said: “There were many scenes in season 5 in which Jane’s behavior to Lisbon was so arrogant and crass that I was *begging* her to punch him for me.” Please add a kick in the ass. I also had a feeling that those two would go fight seriously and I was looking forward for that, because of TWBB’s events. But now he is forgiven by me. He has learned his lesson already there. And he was so lovely and careful in the season finale. So I want no more punch in Jane’s nose, please. But I love when he begin fights and get out unharmed. Hahaha

  • Rose UK

    @ Carla: One of the funniest Jane-related fights for me was in season 2’s Rose-Coloured Glasses (in which he inadvertently encourages the high-school nerd to go flying at the arrogant jock). It was funny because for once he didn’t mean for the chaos to happen, and the look on his face is a picture.

    Also, I think Jane usually gets a kick out of it (pardon the pun) when Lisbon inflicts physical violence on him (see the various smirks after the crutches-kick, the nose tweak, etc. It means that he’s managed to get to her in some way. The full-on nose-punch came as a shock, though, hilariously.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Rose he likes her to hit him. He laughs a lot.

  • III Frogs

    Lisbon hitting Jane is probably his way of having a semblance of the real physical relationship he’d like to have with her. At least she’s touching him, maybe. All that wonderful attention, since he knows she has no intention of really hurting him. Except that punch in the nose. She wanted that to hurt. And he still laughed through the pain. Sweet, and kind of sad. Time to solve that problem! lol

  • C Hill

    speaking of physical contact…

    in RJR, i thought the beginning and the end of the episode with Jane and Lisbon echoed the beginning and end of the season. when Lisbon woke Jane up, it was with some gentle touches on the back– we of course finished with Jane’s gentle direction of Lisbon with a hand on her back. of course, the season started and finished with the dual “a little in love” comments.

  • phoenixx

    “Lisbon hitting Jane is probably his way of having a semblance of the real physical relationship he’d like to have with her”

    LOL, well he even admitted as much: ‘I like it when you go all authoritarian on me’ – He admitted his fetish at the start of the season already ;D

    About TWBB and Jane’s revenge path, the interview with Heller and Baker before the episode said that Jane was supposed to feel guilty about getting Lorelei out of prisson and realizing his way of seeking revenge might not be the right way. I think the problem with this episode is that like most things Mentalist they handled it so subtle the most people didn’t notice that.
    Actually I never before thought about it but maye Janes “defending Lorelei’s actions” was also due to shock about what she did and that in a way he was responsible for it.
    But like Carla said we were shown his behavior changed in the season finale, I guess that’s where TWBB came fullcircle.

    Oh and I’m with everyone who said less VanPelt/Rigsby! I’d much rather have Cho/Rigsby but I want more development on Jane/Lisbon and not just his hunt after RJ. Personally I hope something will happen before they get RJ.

  • Rose UK

    Also interesting in this context of touch is that neither Jane nor Lisbon particularly like to be hugged. (Sorry – I have the strong feeling that this has been discussed many times, so apologies for the fact I’m about to repeat other people’s thoughts!!) For Jane, I guess it’s either part of his self-distancing techniques (was he always solitary like that, do we think?) or because the hugs are usually given in thanks by murder victims’ families, and as ReviewBrain (?) has often said, somewhere inside he does not feel deserving of their gratitude.

    It’s basically only Lisbon that he is comfortable with hugging for real (with the exception of Minelli one time – who looked a little moved by it, which was sweet, and made me look at him in a fatherly light – and I can’t think who else?) Meanwhile dear Lisbon always seems a little awkward in return, like she’s thinking “Err… what is going on here?” Perhaps it’s the unexpected nature of the hugs, as she seemed very at home when she was dancing with him. And she’s got better at being hugged over the course of the seasons (Van Pelt, little boy, etc.)

    @ Phoenixx. Good point. I could go with that. Bit unfortunate that he was so complicit in the torture of Lennon, though. 😦

  • III Frogs

    Hadn’t thought of Jane loving Lisbon to hit him as part of his loving her to go all authoritarian on him, phoenixx 😀 So funny. I totally get that type of physicality and play, and with jane and Lisbon it’s big smiles all around, so lots of fun. It reminds me also when Jane said that Lisbon likes him more than the other kids, that’s why she’s meaner to him. Ha! Now you’ve convinced me more than ever that this physicality substitutes for what they can’t have now, but keeps that pathway or connection open for when they (probably) need it later. Nice. I’ll think about that as I try to get through this interminable hiatus. When is the Reviewbrain themes post coming out?

  • III Frogs

    Plus, it lets off a tiny little bit of tension to have a little of that play between them. 😉

  • C Hill

    regarding “the tension”, fetishes, and such, there were several indirect (or not?) references late in S6. in addition to the ones mentioned, there was the “it’s ok, we like to watch” line in RVC in the studio.

    and at the beginning of RJR we have the following exchange in the car before Jane reveals he’s cut it to 7 names.

    Lisbon: you gonna make me beg?
    Jane: For what?
    Lisbon: Come on, stop it! How close are you exactly?

    A shade flirty, to me.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Phoenix said “he even admitted as much: ‘I like it when you go all authoritarian on me’.”
    He also said in 5×15: “I was just about to learn how to drive her wild.”(What the hell is that speak?). And he got turned on when she said: “Jane, I need you.”
    Phoenix also said: “the interview with Heller and Baker before the episode said that Jane was supposed to feel guilty about getting Lorelei out of prison and realizing his way of seeking revenge might not be the right way. I think the problem with this episode is that like most things Mentalist they handled it so subtle the most people didn’t notice that.
    Actually I never before thought about it but may Jane’s “defending Lorelei’s actions” was also due to shock about what she did and that in a way he was responsible for it.” I think you are right.
    After watching more than once, I could see that he was already regretful just after that hard talk between him and Lisbon in Orchid Lane. When she left, he reminded stood a kind of paralyzed, sad, maybe (of course I couldn’t see it in the first view because I was angrily blind with that “I trust her” and “maybe I have some feelings” crap). But, like you said, things were very subtle even more with angry eyes. He saw the aftermath of the mess: hurting Lisbon and maybe destroying their relationship (with the ultimatum).

  • Cece

    @Violet @Carla It seems that I just think that Jane and Lisbon have a little bit further to travel on the course of true love than y’all do:) I didn’t mean to imply that Jane hasn’t made any progress since the pilot, clearly he has. With that said, even after Devil’s Cherry Jane demonstrated that he is willing to burn bridges with Lisbon in order to get Red John. Not that he *wants* to, but it’s a risk that he was willing to take in both RSITS and TWBB. As for how Jane acted after TWBB, well he was on reasonably good behavior, but I didn’t think he treated Lisbon better than he did for most of season 4 (actually I thought they were much cozier for the majority of season 4 than they were for season 5, with some exceptions) and we know what he pulled in Red Rover/Crimson Hat. I guess I’m just taking a wait and see approach because I haven’t seen anything that indicates that Jane has clearly turned a corner, there are signs that *maybe* he has, but it’s not clear.

    Additions to my Very Long Wish List-

    -For Lisbon to be less of a doormat and really put her foot down with Jane. I thought her insistence in Red John’s Rules of knowing the suspects (Yes, that’s what I think she was going to say in the car. I’m firmly on Team Lisbon Wasn’t Going To Discuss Her Mushy Feelings, though it was clearly played so viewers could take it either way) was a great step in the right direction, so more of that please.

    -For Jane to be wrong on a case. The last time it happened, IIRC, was in Red Rover, Red Rover, thought the best example was in Bloodshot. It’s a good reminder that, for all Jane’s skills, he’s still just making finely tuned educated guesses most of the time, so he will be wrong at times.

  • thebeatboy

    Hi!! Violet :))

    This was so great to read. A lot of interesting observations. Thank you for taking the time to write the wrap up.

    I would love to see some more advancement on the Jane Lisbon relationship.

    I certainly hope this will lead into a new beginning/ continuation of The Mentalist. I just love this show and the way that Patrick Jane, Agent Lisbon and the rest of the CBI solve cases.

  • Rose UK

    @ C Hill. I noticed that line in Cupcakes too, but I didn’t want to mention it in case it was just me being dirty-minded! Hahaha. But now I can rest assured that it was simply another example of clever & subtle use of language in TM. 😉 On the other end of the spectrum, we also have Lisbon sarcastically saying something like, “She’s a real sweetheart” about a girl’s criminal history, which stood out to me in the context of the episode because it’s a term of endearment. Clever writers. 🙂

    @ Cece: I’m on your team re: the car conversation. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Seems there was an explosion in comments during my little Reviewbrain style commenting “withdrawal”! 🙂 Speaking of withdrawal, what RoseUK said in a previous comment made me think about the common theme of addiction, especially addiction to alcohol in ‘the mentalist’. She highlighted the curious similarity between the names of two victims, Keeley Farlow in ‘Red Moon’ and Leelee Barlow in season 5 finale and their stories. That caused a strong déjà vu-like feeling in me, made me go back and review some other episodes. I was struck by the fact that this exact story was repeated at least 6 times in different episodes:

    ‘Red Tide’, victim’s mother died in a car accident caused by a drunk driver just like Lisbon’s mother as Van Pelt noted, alcoholic father Lisbon likened to his father. ‘Red Badge’, a restatement that Lisbon’s mother died when she was 12 and that she had an alcoholic father. ‘Red Moon’, Keeley Farlow’s parents died in a car accident involving a drunk driver, alcoholic grandfather. ‘Jolly Red Elf’, is all about alcohol addiction. Lailah Bloom’s (the nurse) parents were alcoholic; mother died in a car crash, cirrhosis of the liver took her dad. ‘Red Dawn’, son of a judge killing a wife and a mother while driving drunk, only to be murdered after having a second accident by a police officer that is working part time in a bar who had helped him evade justice the first time. ‘Red John’s Rules’, Leelee Barlow’s parents died in a car accident (who knows, maybe as a result of alcohol consumption?), alcohol consumption seen by Sean Barlow late in the afternoon. Also we have another not very dissimilar story in ‘Blood for Blood’, Lisbon comparing the victim/murderer to his father.

    It appears to me that this theme that covers the whole span of the show should have a bearing in the future. What do you think about it?

    Maybe I’m paranoid but that’s apparently in addition to the numerous other occasions of showing heavy alcohol consumption and its consequences, e.g. by victims in ‘Red Herring’, ‘Red Lacquer Nail Polish’ and ‘Red Letter Day’. There is even an instance of being wrongly accused of using alcohol in ‘Behind the Red Curtain’, also other references to it like, winery restaurant, vineyard, rare wine collection, …, and lastly showing people’s preferences in alcohol like Tequila and Whiskey.

    Pardon me for continuing this long aimless post. Although quite expected in a show about serious crimes, but substance use, too has a special place in this show even concerning the main characters lives and RJ story, from Jane using belladonna to substance use in Visualize farm and from Summer, to Lorelei’s mother. And a little thing in the end that I don’t know anybody has mentioned before or not: we saw Jane helping a woman abandon cigarette smoking in ‘Blood for Blood’ and commenting about her nice lighter. In the next two episodes Jane sees Hightower’s life stress and smoking, probably the only person in the CBI we have seen to smoke cigarettes. Now In light of that lighter Jane remembered, that was probably used to set Todd Johnson on fire in the first episode of season 3, could Hightower’s smoking have been a plot tool to make us suspect her more of committing the crime in ‘Red Queen’?

  • anomalycommenter

    Corrections: Pardon me, Todd Johnson was set on fire in ‘Red Moon’ that is the 9th episode of season 3 and not the first, and I referred to Lisbon’s father mistakenly as “his father” in two occasions. (only the mistakes I could see myself, surly among numerous other ones! 🙂 )

  • Rose UK

    Hi Anomaly! Great points – I would never have suspected Hightower based on her smoking, but had I put the two together before McLaughlin was unmasked I would’ve been very on edge!

    I also think that given Jane’s relentless obsession, the theme of addiction is definitely a valid one. Indeed, in Jolly Red Elf, he basically admits to an addiction and unburdens himself (to a certain extent, and in vague terms) to the group. As for the narrower sub-theme of alcohol, I’m not sure what to make of it! I mean, I believe there could be something in it, but I’m at a loss as to what… Something in the backstory, perhaps? It’s a mind-altering substance, so maybe there’s something ‘mentalistic’ to be exploited from that… Either that or the writers are just regurgitating old plots. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    @ Phoenixx: Thank you very much for the beautiful explanation of the meaning of white and red roses. And how nicely you later put the point that the problem (or if I may add, perhaps beauty) of the mentalist is that they handle the most important messages they want to convey so subtly that most people don’t notice it!

    @ Violet: Sorry for the delay. Just one instance of importance that I can recall: When Lisbon and Jane paid Bret Stiles a visit in Visualize HQ and ended up arresting him in ‘His Thoughts Were Red Thoughts’, we can see that there are some white roses or tulips on Stiles’ table and on some of the other tables.

    @ RoseUK: And if I may, following your wish about Jane’s Haircut, and from the other side of the x/y chromosome divide, is it possible for Lisbon to wear less of those coats and overcoats she wears all the time in season 5? 🙂 Also in addition to the lightheartedness in early episodes you mentioned that I’m afraid we probably won’t see considering the PJ/RJ situation, I also miss the bright, colorful setups of those seasons. Most of the scenes in season 5 are dim, and color toned down in post production, maybe an attempt to match the grim atmosphere of this season but still.

    @ Auli & Cece: Seems a similar yellow flower like the ones on the table during Lisbon/Haffner lunch out was also present in Julia’s house in ‘There Will Be Blood’. Also that Keyser Soze reference was very nice. Maybe I should try harder in checking bottoms of cups from now on in the show in addition to people’s shoes! 🙂

    @ C Hill & Suzjazz: I’m as superficial here as it gets, so did Robin Tunney really suggest anything about the girly outfits again? That would be fabulous! The costume selection for her was awful in most of the season 5. Also Kickass Lisbon by all means!

    What a lively and refreshing study of Jane’s nose you had there! Sure Jane gets a kick out of Lisbon hitting him. I wonder if it would be an exaggeration to say that them starting a relationship is the most anticipated one in human history? 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Very interesting points indeed, ladies!
    As a matter of fact, I was just working on the addiction theme (and I’ll be certainly quoting some of your examples, Anomaly, since your list is pretty great). It’s a funny coincidence! 🙂 I think Rose is right about it being linked to Jane’s addiction/ obsession… (But more on this later… 😉 )

  • Rose UK

    I look forward to reading your insights on this (and the other themes), Violet. Definitely some mileage to be got out of it. 🙂

    PS Anomaly: Another quick example is Cho, who was pretty strong-willed in nipping his burgeoning painkiller addiction in the bud. Nice reflection of his character, I think.

    Ok, I’ll shut up now and save any further commentary for Violet’s next post (if I can resist the temptation)! 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks Rose! Good point about Cho. You’re quite right that the obsession of Jane in RJ and vice versa are also very prominent in the show! Other behavioral addictions like gambling are also referred to several times, e.g. Bertram’s need to win in the poker game as Jane put it, it distracting him from his job, and his quite emotional reaction and joy that he won that round against Judge Manchester was very evident. Though that may be as a result of the suggested deeper meaning of that particular game they’ve got going on. Oh, and one other probably important point about that poker game, the first time we saw Lisbon going to play in 5×3,’Not One Red Cent’, we see a shot of the place from outside, a ‘Café Luciano’, strange is that this is the same place O’Laughlin took Van Pelt for dinner in 3×14,’ Blood for Blood’! She even mentions figuratively her “poker face” there in reference to being calm in front of LaRoche! 😉

    Also thank you very much Violet, very nice of you! And what a coincidence! Please pardon me for the delay in my response about your inquiry about flowers. I mentioned in an under moderation post today that I managed to see just one instance of importance that I can recall: When Lisbon and Jane paid Bret Stiles a visit in Visualize HQ and ended up arresting him in ‘His Thoughts Were Red Thoughts’, we can see that there are some white roses or tulips on Stiles’ table and on some of the other tables. Also please accept my apologies for not being clear about this issue before, but I do not have the honor of being a lady. In fact I am a man. Maybe that’s just part of being an anomaly in your circle! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you Rose UK and Violet very much. I responded to your comments, but my response just doesn’t get through this dreaded moderation barrier. Looking forward to read your thoughts under Violet’s next post. 🙂

  • phoenixx

    So the Premiere title will be “The Desert Rose” and here goes another Rose and of course reminds us all probably of the desert at the end of S4. Interesting thing about the desert rose:
    ‘A tea made from the root is used as a tonic and for treating fever’ and ‘clarifies thinking and mental vision, perception. Quiets worry, brings out practicality.” The opposite is Lavender.’

    There doesn’t seem to be a meaning to the flower itself though.

    Any thoughts?

  • Reader22

    Where did you find out title of the first episode? What do you think

  • rita

    Thanks for the info Phoenixx, I am glad that stuff is starting to come through…I was getting a bit desparate!!

    you said…‘A tea made from the root is used as a tonic and for treating fever’ and ‘clarifies thinking and mental vision, perception. Quiets worry, brings out practicality.” The opposite is Lavender.’

    Interesting, I assume that the writer (?Bruno?) has looked into this meaning, as I think thatJane & the team are going to need all of these qualities to find and catch Red John….It does seem to me that everyones thoughts re the flower symbols may have some element of truth.

    I am really enjoying everyones comments and thoughts, you are really helping with the summer drought…looking forward to Violet’s thoughts on the flower symbols and addiction post.

  • anomalycommenter

    Very interesting info phoenixx! Also thanks a lot for your really beautiful explanation of the meanings of roses of different color before. 🙂 By Lavender are you referring to what Carter said to Jane of what her wife smelled in ‘Strawberries and cream’: “She smelled like coal tar soap and lavender”?!

  • phoenixx

    @anomalycommenter: Hadn’t thought of the Lavender meaning at all, it was posted on the site where I found it. Wasn’t sure if we had Lavender mentioned in some Episode.

    @Reader22: It was revealed just a few hours ago.
    http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/07/the-mentalist-season-6-premiere-title.html

  • Reader22

    Thank you. 🙂 At this point I’ll take anything I can get about the new season. I’ve fallen down a jisbon hole.

  • C Hill

    well i hate serious spoilers with a clean, righteous anger :), but epi titles are perfectly fine — and in this case interesting.

    i suggest this. google “desert rose lyrics sting” and read those. maybe get a little mad, maybe not.

    then google “desert rose lyrics eric johnson” and you might have different thoughts.

  • III Frogs

    entwife-incognito just did a photoset of all SEVEN of Jane getting his nose punched. Plus a listing of other injuries he’s sustained, including Lisbon snapping it HARD with her fingersCrimson Casanova 1×15 and ramming it into a door when he was blind Bloodshot 1×16. On tumblr. The list of nose punches:

    1) Red Tide 1×3 Pops punches Patrick in the nose (top pic, Thank you, plestex716)

    2) Thin Red Line 1×8 Det. Blakely punches Patrick in the nose (2nd pic, Thank you, fbiagentreedsmith)

    3) Code Red 2×16 Lisbon punches Patrick in the nose (3rd pic)

    4) Red Hot 3×7 Walter Mashburn punches Patrick in the nose from his car! Thank you, Anonymous! How could I forget that one? (4th pic, plestex716 comes through again! Thank you!)

    5) Cheap Burgundy 4×17 Silicon Valley mogul punches Patrick in the nose (5th pic)

    6) Pink Champagne on Ice 4×19 Patrick’s magician friend Jack punches Patrick in the nose (6th pic)

    7) Red Dawn 4×5 Agent Hannigan punches Patrick in the nose (bottom pic, Thank you plestex716 for the reminder!)

  • Rose UK

    @ Phoenixx: You’ve just raised my anticipation levels by about a thousand. I love the episode already. Is Lisbon the Desert Rose? She’d be the one to bring out those qualities in Jane, surely? The sign of hope in the bleak wasteland that has been his recent life…?

    By the way, all the talk about roses and their colours has put me in mind of a book called The Crimson Petal and the White (an excellent read, by the way, if perhaps not to all tastes), whose title is taken from a Tennyson poem. The book is about two ‘kinds’ of women (though more complex, as their edges blur!), much like Phoenixx suggests above, while the poem is more about romantic/erotic love (as far as I can gather; poetry not my strong point). I’m not sure how to apply this to TM, but I suppose it provides further support for the red rose = femme fatale; white rose = Lisbon idea, which appears well rooted in literature.

    @ Anomaly: Nice idea re: lavender! Aside from the fact that avenging Angela’s death might account for some of Jane’s muddled thinking, it may also imply her possible fall from grace (as some people speculate that there are skeletons in her closet – an affair or some such). Also: by all means, come and join us in the shallow end of the pool! 😀

    @ Reader22: “Fallen down a Jisbon hole” – haha, I like it! Got room for one more at the bottom there? 😉

    @ C Hill: “I hate serious spoilers with a clean, righteous anger” – haha, oh me too. Me too.

    Gosh, all the laughing today. Must be the unexpected summer sunshine gone to my head.

  • suzjazz

    @CHill: I googled both Desert Rose songs. The Sting one didn’t make me mad, but it reinforced the idea that the series may end with Jane and Lisbon pining for one another forever and never consummating their love. The Eric Johnson one seems to be a more specific portrait of Lisbon from Jane’s POV. There’s no question that the few times songs are heard on TM they have very specific meanings. The titles of the episodes are something else: every title contains a reference to red, or something red. Pink or rose also counts. If the title is based on either or both of the songs, then it must refer to Lisbon. Unless there is another female character introduced who has these qualities. Now you’ve got me thinking about Desert Rose and what it might mean in the first episode of season 6!

  • Reader22

    I think it has to do with Lisbon and maybe Janes feeling for her. I’m wondering if there’s going to be a time jump or pick up where we left off.

  • C Hill

    i’m pretty sure the title won’t refer to a song specifically, but given the slight uptick in music of late in the show, i thought it was worth a look.

    suzjazz, i thought the sting song would put folks more in a mind of lorelei. i did find the lyrics for the johnson song more on point with Lisbon as you did.

    i guess i’m just thinking out loud, though i suppose i felt a need to go toward songs first after getting hit over the head with “something’s gotten a hold of my heart” in RJR.

    [note to entwife — i threw those songs up here before seeing you had been on that angle on your tumblr!]

  • III Frogs

    @C Hill Oh! You found the songs! I thought that was great. I was so surprised someone found one, and then someone found another and then Entwife found a third (I don’t know if she was even actually the first to find that one by Eric Johnson, just the first I’d seen), all called Desert Rose. Pretty astounding. I really haven’t been looking into them, though, just mentioned them as an angle that we Mentalistas take down to the molecules to understand, and it’s all we’d had in a long time. Because hiatus AND they never TELL us anything 🙂

    You may be referring to Entwife Incognito’s shipper lamentations of last night on Tumblr? Sometimes it just really gets to you, but there’s always someone to give you a hand up. I’ve even been trying to cheer up the Tiva shippers, really feel for them. I really enjoy the collaboration that it takes to get all the juice out of every episode. (Reviewbrain, a perfect case in point, eh?) Witness Entwife’s effort to document all of Patrick Jane’s punches to the nose. So many people ended up contributing, many of them Anonymice, and she needed them all. Plus it branched out to all types of other injuries he’d sustained. And it’s all in one place if anyone ever needs it.

    Ta for reading and listening, C Hill! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    @Anomaly: Now that you have revealed yourself as one of the few men who dare to take on this army of perceptive females, I understand your perspective re Lisbon wearing more “girly” clothes! (Not to say revealing–she could at least lose all the overcoats, as someone said!) I just re-watched one of my favorite episodes, the one with the “angry little princess” line which has to be one of the greatest lines in TV history. If you recall, Lisbon is in her office trying on a long pink bridesmaid’s dress, which as such dresses go, was remarkably tasteful and un-frilly. She’s muttering to herself because she hates wearing dresses in general and is only doing this for Van Pelt. The dress is woefully ill-fitting around the bust and she keeps hitching it up. Her hair is pinned up in a messy bun. Jane breezes in through the unlocked door, and even though she is “decent,” she freaks and yells at him about knocking first, then complains about Van Pelt. Jane is taken aback by her beauty and at first can only say, “Oh my.” He teases her about telling VP that it was L’s secret desire to be a bridesmaid, which is clearly not true, which needles her, and delivers the famous line before exiting saying “Very feminine.” The whole scene is played as though they were a couple of adolescents–the girl embarrassed, the boy speechless at first. I think it’s significant that the dress is too big for Lisbon and gives her the air of a little girl playing princess in her mother’s gown. Lisbon’s a tomboy, though–she feels more comfortable in leather jackets and jeans than in a dress. Yet if she had a male admirer she wanted to please, she might try to look more alluring. The fact that the only man she admires is hiding his feelings for her as best he can doesn’t help.
    I meant to comment on other things in this post but got carried away into a dissertation on Lisbon and the dress–Anomaly, I love your comments, keep it up!

  • suzjazz

    @IIIFrogs: The Tiva shippers? Oh my god. That show has been on for 10 seasons, I think, and Tony and Ziva are getting old and gray. It’s funny, they almost have a Jane/Lisbon relationship, except that Ziva seems to have adopted a “sister” role from the outset. I didn’t watch the show much this past season, so maybe the dynamic has changed? though from the sound of things, it hasn’t. Poor Ziva has had to endure several Tony girlfriends, so if she is harboring a secret love, she must be beside herself with despair. As for Tony: except for the boyfriend he killed in a past season, he hasn’t had much competition. But I digress. (Please don’t throw away this post– I promise I am getting to the Mentalist right now!) 🙂

    Ah, to be a Jisbon shipper is asking for heartbreak. I am so angry with the writers for not giving us something real like a kiss in season 5 that I am reading Jisbon fanfics–even the lousy ones–for sustenance. The “Jisbon Forever” folks seem to think that in a parallel universe somewhere Jane and Lisbon get married, have kids, and live happily ever after. I don’t ask for this much. All I ask is that the two main characters, whom we all love, are happy at the end, and the only way they will be happy is if they are together as lovers, not just partners. Already, each is the only friend the other has. (The rest of the team is family, not friends, although I think Jane and Cho could be pals if the writers wanted it) Both Jane and Lisbon need a life and a relationship with each other would lead them in that direction.

    Problem is, I’m a Jane Austen fan, and her novels always have a happy romantic ending despite terrible angst and obstacles. Bruno Heller is not from the Jane Austen school of writing, though–he’s more Edgar Allen Poe, Herman Melville, and Dickens, with perhaps some Tolstoy thrown in. These authors are not known for their happy endings, especially for lovers.

    So I am not optimistic about the consummation of Jisbon on The Mentalist. All signs seem to point towards Lisbon becoming more and more fearful for Jane as she can no longer deny her love, and meanwhile Jane getting more and more obsessed as he approaches ever nearer to Red John. In a funny way, Jane loves Red John more than he loves Lisbon.

    But maybe I am being too gloomy. I just don’t want to get my hopes up.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Great, Frog! Have I already told that I love beautiful songs’ lyrics? Which is the third one, besides Sting’s and Eric Johnson’s? Do you believe me, guys after knowing the premier’s title I dreamt about it last night? I hope I don’t get crazy.

  • Rose UK

    I’m currently stuck in what I shall henceforward refer to as ‘the moderation desert’ in homage to this.new and exciting piece of season 6 info, so I’ll limit myself to saying: I quite like Lisbon’s most recent wardrobe! (being somewhat of a tomboy myself). Though Robin’s “I don’t wanna wear another boy outfit!” was pretty hilarious.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Suzjazz, I really Love you comment about the bridesmaid dress and they playing like a couple of adolescents! I think they play these roles in the show, like in the “Jane, I need you-is nice to be needed-anything for you, Lisbon” stuff and her look at him, like he hadn’t just said that to her and with that ponytail’s hair.

  • Carla Oliveira

    What are you talking about, Rose? Don’t drive crazy of curiosity.

  • Rose UK

    Sorry, Carla! I was just referring to Phoenixx’s post about the first episode of season 6 being called The Desert Rose. My previous post disappeared into the mysterious land of moderation, so I decided to call it “the moderation desert” because of this new title. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    @ Suzjazz: Thank you very much for the encouragement! Reading your comments too is a totally enjoyable experience. I really feel ashamed! It might not have been appropriate for me to talk about these issues here. In response to Rose UK I have to say that I should never have dared to speak about a subject I absolutely am not entitled to comment about. I just got carried away in the emotional stream and thought about it out load. I don’t know, just had a feeling that her costumes were somewhat different this season. As Suzjazz said it much better, some of her suits felt somewhat boring, just this. Also, there’s no use in denying the obvious, I am really fond of Robin Tunney and The lovely ”pocket rocket, dynamite, heavily-armed, cute-as-a-button, Agent Teresa Lisbon” character she plays. And strange as it may sound but actually, it’s quite attractive for Lisbon to be a tomboy. And on the other hand, I too, like Jane had some of those “Oh,my!” reactions that Suzjazz mentioned. 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Please comment away all you like, Anomaly! You are just as entitled as any of us. 😉 I haven’t taken any offence (never even crossed my mind to consider it inappropriate), if my post has at all alarmed you! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Oh darn it, a reassuring comment to Anomaly has just gone astray… (In which case… consider yourself soon to be doubly reassured!) 😉

  • Rose UK

    Dear Anomaly: you can expect two encouraging posts (currently missing in action) to appear when you least expect. 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Anomaly: Ugh, sorry Anomaly, my mistake! 😛 There are a few (great) commenters on this blog who are men, but the majority is made of women indeed, so assuming people are women is becoming kinda automatic! It’s still a pretty nice surprise that one of the best commenters here is a man! 🙂 (Although I should have had stronger suspicions after one of your most recent comments -for the finale- which was pretty telling… 😉 )

    “And strange as it may sound but actually, it’s quite attractive for Lisbon to be a tomboy. And on the other hand, I too, like Jane had some of those “Oh,my!” reactions that Suzjazz mentioned.”

    I also like that Lisbon is a tomboy, who doesn’t fully realize how attractive men may find her: it’s endearing and adds a lot to her character in my opinion. It’s a nice contrast to those other women who are either seductresses (Erica), dangerous fighters (Lorelei) or simply professional and sharply feminine like Darcy… even though those qualities are also in her personality, but hidden in the layers of her character. And it also is a nice contrast to Grace, who is very pretty and assumes her looks, but is a bit naïve, while Lisbon’s own naivety is less directed towards people and more towards herself.
    I also like Jane to be a bit of a sissy: he and Lisbon really complement each other in a particularly interesting way, as their strong points and weaknesses are well distributed between them. When Jane is (overly) confident in his skills and charm, Lisbon is unassuming; when he’s fragile and vulnerable, she’s strong-willed, tough and firmly believes in her moral principles.

    @ Rose: No problem, Rose! Feel free to add anything about any theme you want: I’ll just complete some parts of the upcoming post if needed, don’t worry! 🙂

    @ Thebeatboy: thanks a lot for your lovely comment! and thank you for taking the time to read! 😀

    @ Cece wrote: “For Lisbon to be less of a doormat and really put her foot down with Jane. I thought her insistence in Red John’s Rules of knowing the suspects (Yes, that’s what I think she was going to say in the car. I’m firmly on Team Lisbon Wasn’t Going To Discuss Her Mushy Feelings, though it was clearly played so viewers could take it either way) was a great step in the right direction, so more of that please.”

    Honestly, I can’t say I believe either that she was going to discuss her feelings, at least not directly. Still, that doesn’t mean that maybe things wouldn’t have ended up that way… There seems to be some intriguing bouts of curiosity in her: she asked Jane what he meant after his confession, even though she hadn’t had to, yet she let the subject drop at the first opportunity she got. Same with the discussion they had before in the car in the finale, when Jane threatened to tell three of her secrets: she didn’t need to play along, yet her first reaction was to want to know what he suspected, then she changed her mind. It looks like underneath her politically correct good Catholic schoolgirl façade, she might like to play a little bit with fire, even though she prefers to stop before things get out of hand.
    I guess that’s why she could get along for so long with her uncontrollable consultant: beneath her rule-loving appearance, she’s more a risk-taker than she seems… 🙂

  • zee

    In light of the recent spate of Lisbon’s dress code bordering on boring, what does that make of Jane’s suits? So far we’ve seen him in the same wardrobe for five freaking seasons. Lisbon is probably taking a leaf out of Jane’s rotational fashion book…that’s why it seems like she’s wearing the same outfits.

    (Exceptions though; Jane was seen wearing pyjamas, checkered shirt, ‘sherlock’ coat, hospital gown, jail uniform and strait jacket. MyShallowWishlist: I want to see more of his carny outfits *just* before he met Angela.)

  • C Hill

    hey, i’m starting to feel a little unappreciated for my inappropriate lisbon commentary!

    IIIFrogs, yes, Jane has taken a bit of beating on the show outside of the punches to the nose. Or face (close enough) in season 5 🙂

    and i’m rolling up on the end of season 1 for observations on flowers and such in the show.

  • Reader22

    I would like to see Jane is something other then his suites. Someone put on there wish list downtime for the time it be a great chance to see them all in everyday clothes. If not more girly then more green and red colors she looks good in.

  • C Hill

    reader22: “I would like to see Jane is something other then his suits”

    oh i’m sure. perhaps you would appreciate some turtlenecks? 🙂

    and i’m missing another post. sigh. sure anomaly gets recognition for being a Lisbon fanboi but I suffer in silence 🙂

  • Reader22

    Rose UK: Tons of room down at the bottom. 😉

  • Rose UK

    More info on the desert rose: apparently it can take a long time to flower (rather promising in the J & L context) but also has poisonous sap. Hm. Not so promising.

    @ Suz: I like Austen too, but don’t despair – there are happy endings (of sorts!) in Dickens too, not to mention various instances of good triumphing over evil. (Hurrah!) I don’t know much about Poe or Tolstoy, so I’ll just brush aside any sad conclusions and/or their tortured genius with a Jane-esque “meh” and pretend Bruno is a closet happy endings fan. 😉

  • windsparrow

    Suzjazz wrote, “Ah, to be a Jisbon shipper is asking for heartbreak. I am so angry with the writers for not giving us something real like a kiss in season 5…”

    My interpretation of Jane’s character and purpose is that he flat out will not act on any serious feelings he has for a woman he truly cares about until Red John is out of the way. I think even before Bret Styles made the comment to Jane about Red John taking away every one he cares about when they were discussing Kristina Frye’s disappearance, Jane felt that way. He not only feels he has to take Red John down in order to honor the promise he made to his family and so honor the bond he had with them before he can move on with his own life, but he also has the concern of creating a new target for Red John by showing openly that he has feelings for a new woman. The emotional and intellectual reasoning behind this is so strong in my mind that when I read other shippers’ comments who have differing interpretations I find myself getting really confused.

    Sure I suppose the case can be made that in Lisbon’s case, she already has a target on her back due to her involvement as the official lead investigator, as well as the fact that Red John must already know Jane has some form of feelings for her. But I see Jane as trying to protect her by giving her whatever advantage in safety it can, that he has not acted on those feelings. If she is a target because Jane has feelings, how much more of a target would she be if Jane acted on those feelings and got involved with her in a romantic relationship? So I ask you, Suzjazz, what do you see in Jane’s character that makes you think after all the grief and guilt Jane is already suffering, that he would put Lisbon so much at risk?

    Also, so far he has been shown as taking the occasional small step with women he does not care about as deeply as he cares for Lisbon, (leaving out the big step of sleeping with Lorelei because that was more about how far he was willing to go to catch RJ than it was to do with his being ready to move on) and has been shown to be making some small progress with genuine grief. But those are small steps, not big, unequivocal ones. What do you see in Jane’s characterization that leads you to believe he has moved past his grief and self-recrimination such that he is actually currently ready to put the moves on a woman he truly cares about?

    Me? I am enjoying the slow progression. I do kind of wish that the RJ storyline gets wrapped up sooner rather than later, because I want The Mentalist to be about Jane’s journey from broken conman to whole, decent person, so I am really looking forward to where his story goes after RJ is out of the picture.

  • III Frogs

    Carla, there is Desert Rose by Whiteheart, too. This is just what I’ve seen, I hadn’t heard any of these songs before. YW!.

  • suzjazz

    @windsparrow: I don’t disagree with your analysis of Jane’s character: what is fascinating is that he has a dual identity as con man and liar AND honorable man who has an duty to avenge the deaths of his wife and child. He also has a moral code–he is not amoral like Red John.

    “But I see Jane as trying to protect her by giving her whatever advantage in safety it can, that he has not acted on those feelings. If she is a target because Jane has feelings, how much more of a target would she be if Jane acted on those feelings and got involved with her in a romantic relationship? So I ask you, Suzjazz, what do you see in Jane’s character that makes you think after all the grief and guilt Jane is already suffering, that he would put Lisbon so much at risk?”

    I think we saw in RJR (or inferred from his promise to begin killing again, and killing Jane’s happy memories) that there is already a target on Lisbon. We actually saw it earlier when RJ asked Jane to kill Lisbon. There is no question that it is just a matter of time for RJ to attempt to kill Lisbon. And yes, safety precautions are in order. But the way I see it, the terrible thing is that now there is no way for Jane to protect Lisbon unless he is at her side 24/7. It doesn’t matter what he does. For that matter, the unknown future victims will also be impossible to protect unless Jane can identify them beforehand and warn them–and even then, we have seen how deadly RJ is. But you may be right about Jane’s character: in his mind, he must try to protect Lisbon no matter what because he failed to protect his wife and daughter. What I have an issue with is that he said in season 1 that bad things happen to people who get close to him, yet he asked Kristina out on a date with devastating results. He slept with Lorelei knowing who she was because he was desperate to get RJ, but he didn’t care what happened to her, even though he admits to Lisbon that he had feelings for her. So he is very inconsistent. You can argue that he doesn’t *love* Lorelei and Kristina, and therefore he didn’t feel obliged to protect them, but I think it’s more that Jane doesn’t know his own mind more often than not–indeed, his mind is almost a separate entity from his soul.

    (to be continued in next post!)

  • suzjazz

    @windsparrow
    I don’t disagree with your analysis of Jane’s character: What is fascinating is that he has a dual identity as con man and liar AND honorable man who has an duty to avenge the deaths of his wife and child. He also has a moral code–he is not amoral like Red John.

    You make an excellent point about what you see as Jane’s characterization, but I see it differently: we still don’t know who Jane is. And the only person who knows who Jane is? Lisbon! (according to Charlotte in Devil’s Cherry) Jane has admitted having “feelings” for Lorelei, but he didn’t care what happened to her and did not try to protect her. And even though his date with Kristina was a small step for him, he must have realized that he was putting her in RJ’s crosshairs.

    I guess what I am really trying to say is this (being consistent with what we know of Jane’s character): does Jane
    want to wait until Lisbon is dying to tell her he loves her? He must realize that there is a good chance she may be killed despite his most heroic efforts. He may even be dying before he gets to tell her. The situation is so dire right now that anything could happen at any time. It seemed at the end of RJR that he has decided to stop being secretive and let Lisbon be a true partner in the search for RJ–it was a battle of wills between them, and for once he surrendered to her will. Not only is she his partner for real now, she is his only partner: she has agreed not to tell the team about the DVD and what is now priviledged info that only the two of them have. He’s putting her in greater danger than ever. Is the magic charm of his release from culpability the minute he kills Red John really so strong as to prevent him from being open with Lisbon? I don’t know the answer to that. Thus far, both he and Lisbon have allowed Red John to be the central focus of their lives. They are both damaged people and a relationship would be difficult for them even without RJ. In a way, RJ has made it possible for them to be “safe” and never leave their comfort zone for the dangerous waters of being open with one another.

    Maybe Jane will discover that he *is* ready to tell Lisbon before RJ’s death because he might not get a chance to otherwise. But as I have said in other posts: the writers do not care much about the J/L romance arc. They see it as incidental to the hunt for RJ, the Moby-Dick epic. It’s less a factor of Jane’s character as we know it than a factor of what the writers choose to tell us about.

  • windsparrow

    Suzjazz wrote, “But as I have said in other posts: the writers do not care much about the J/L romance arc. They see it as incidental to the hunt for RJ, the Moby-Dick epic. It’s less a factor of Jane’s character as we know it than a factor of what the writers choose to tell us about.”

    You may be right. The writers may not care about Jane’s romance with Lisbon. This will be true if it is not a planned part of Jane’s story arc, if it is something they are adding in to keep fans happy and keep ratings up. On the other hand, what if it is a carefully planned part of the story arc? What if they are keeping things from progressing at the pace some of the fans dictate simply because it is not right for the story that they are planning to tell?

    I am learning to trust The Mentalist’s show-runners. I believe it was in discussing season 4 here that there were aspects of Lisbon’s characterization that I did not trust them about – I was not sure if Lisbon was a carefully-planned character, or if she was designed to be simply part of the decorative framework designed to show off the male lead to his best advantage. After season 5, I am more inclined to trust the writers and the show-runners.

  • suzjazz

    @windsparrow
    “On the other hand, what if it is a carefully planned part of the story arc?”
    I certainly can’t rule this out, but they’ve got to make it fast because there is only one season left. Heller says he never reads fan posts, so it’s unlikely that he’s going to change his game plan for the fans.
    But in the world of TV, things can change–they probably have not finished shooting all the episodes, and if you believe the actors, they have no idea who RJ is as of now. [He may be telling them to disseminate false info, but the stated reason is plausible: it will give the actors a fresh take on RJ if they suddenly find out] I gather that all of Season 6 will be devoted to RJ episodes–no ordinary crimes-of-the-week. They will have to fit any Jisbon scenes in or else save it all for the last episode after RJ is (presumably, but who can tell?) caught. My own suspicion is that if there is any kissing (there won’t be any sex shown) it will be in the final moments of the final episode.

    I just think it’s a great story and it’s a pity that the writers have not seen fit to develop it more.

  • windsparrow

    Suzjazz writes, “I certainly can’t rule this out, but they’ve got to make it fast because there is only one season left.”

    You sound sure that the sixth season is the last one. May I ask where you got that information? I have plenty of speculation that this will be the last season, but nothing remotely official.

  • suzjazz

    I’m sorry I can’t remember the source, but I remember reading that Bruno Heller wants to end the series with season 6. I’m going to google “Is season 6 the Last for the Mentalist?”

  • suzjazz

    This was dated May 23 2013:
    “The Mentalist” Season 6 could be the end of the series, but creator Bruno Heller is not issuing an official statement. Instead, he reiterates in an interview that Red John will be caught when the CBS series returns in September. “The hunt is on, no messing about ,” Heller said.”
    It’s from an Aussie mag or paper (I think)

    http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/470292/20130523/mentalist-red-john-season-6-patrick-jane.htm#.UeLoDFMi2q8

    It’s Heller being canny as usual.

  • anomalycommenter

    Rose UK & Violet: Oooh, too much encouragement for me! 🙂 Really don’t know what to say. It’s several hours that I’m thinking how to respond to your extremely kind posts! Thank you very much Rose for your very, very encouraging posts, that emerged out of limbo to my delight and astonishment, have I fallen down any rabbit holes?! And thanks a lot for the undeserved compliments Violet, you’re really flattering me. Also want to thank Suzjazz again, truly hope that the writers don’t disappoint you about Jane & Lisbon, as Violet beautifully explained above they’re the perfect match for each other. What an interesting discussion you are having with windsparrow! Oh, and everybody please extend your kindness to our dear friend C Hill, too. He’s admittedly talked about *inappropriate* things, too, and so deserves your kindness and more so of, don’t let him suffer in silence! And for backing up the argument that I cannot be a good judge about articles of clothing here is the example of shoe shopping algorithm that best works for me: 1- go to “the” shop 2- Buy the same shoe you bought the last time 3- wait till it’s time to buy a new one, then repeat step 1! 🙂

    Zee, you reminded me of the talk Jane and Kristina Frye had about their date outfits in their sort of dating attempt! Also Still has to find and listen to those desert rose songs, thanks everybody who contributed to this early analysis of the season 6 premiere. 🙂

  • III Frogs

    Ha, @anomaly, love your method of shoe-shopping. Sounds rather like Patrick Jane’s only he goes to the cobbler instead! 😀

  • windsparrow

    Suzjazz, thank you for hunting up that article. I think that there are no guarantees for season Seven, but it is by no means written in stone that Six is The End. Here is a quote from the link above: ‘”(The cast and production) involved in it are kind of a family and you never want to break up a family that’s happy,” Heller told EW. He hinted he has a certain direction in mind in case CBS orders a seventh season – and that is after Red John is caught or killed, or both.’

  • anomalycommenter

    @ III Frogs: No patent on it, maybe Jane does! 🙂 Also a quick look at the entwife tumbler page you mentioned made me reconsider the notion of being obsessed with one’s favorite show!

  • C Hill

    thanks for the kind comment, anomaly! i try not to be too inappropriate 🙂

    on the whole season 7 issue, only recently i found the writeup on Baker’s reworked deal for The Mentalist. Given what I read, I wouldn’t be so sure that season 6 will be the last. There’s a lot of money on table for everyone involved, especially Simon. I believe the worldwide appeal of TM will be a significant deciding factor on a season 7 for TM.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Lol! Both the shoe shopping method and the cobbler references are very funny! 🙂 And I too am very much enjoying the discussion between Suzzjazz and Windsparrow: pretty interesting points, both of you!

    @ C Hill: ok, so I keep going back and forth and swimming my way through that sea of comments but I still can’t spot where you might have said something inappropriate. Am I missing something? Because if you’re referring to your comment about Jane and Lisbon flirting a bit, even though I didn’t interpret it like that, I kinda agree it could have be seen that way (like many of their “moments”). A few of their lines are a bit flirty since the very beginning, after all… 🙂 Anyway, there is so reason for you to feel inappreciated, really, C Hill! 😀

    Just so you know, your comment about Jane varying his wardrobe really made me smile! After all, he already borrowed Mashburn’s luxury car to invite her to dinner, so a mere turtleneck would be nothing… 😉 But, given his reaction to form-fitting clothes for men, there’s also the possibility that he just doesn’t like turtlenecks like Walter’s red one, which seemed especialy designed to catch Teresa’s eye…
    Plus, as Anomaly pointed out, since the man seems to sleep in his couch/attic, date and even attend his own trial with his usual suits, the chances of him changing his ways and his clothes now are pretty slim. Except for his pyjamas in S1, every time he wore something else was for a specific reason (the chequered shirt to pose as someone else, the tuxedo for a formal occasion… even when he wanted RJ to believe he was at his worst, he kept the suit only without the vest! I guess his three-pieces suit-clad figure is too familiar to viewers (he wouldn’t be the same without them, really) and those finely tailored suits are useful because the writers make him appear more or less rumpled to suggest when he’s in control or not. And now I’m left wondering if he still uses his pyjamas in his motel room or his he keeps his suits in case someone would barge in (Hightower, RJ, a minion, or even Lisbon doing a nighly visit à la Lorelei)… Lol… I can really imagine Jane having the reasoning “I’m leading an umpredictable life, I’ll keep my clothes on, jut in case…” 🙂

  • C Hill

    i’m not sure you are being completely honest here, violet: “And now I’m left wondering if he still uses his pyjamas in his motel room or if he keeps his suits on in case on someone would barge in”. i believe there is another option here.

    and that may be inappropriate! 😉

    my own nappropriate angle is that i think of Tunney the same way y’all think of Baker — so I’m looking for more of those oh-so-rare dress sightings with Robin. As opposed to y’all looking for more topless surfing shots with Mr. Baker 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    I really like his three-pieces suit. It’s so cute! But I like very much more when he wears only the vest above the shirt with sleeves rolled up, like in the season finale. Okay, call me crazy. It’s not only the clothes; it’s the his whole gentleman’s way. He doesn’t need any turtleneck.

  • Reader22

    Carla Oliveira: Ok then maybe have him wear a top hat and cane get the whole old school look down. lol

  • Carla Oliveira

    No, it doesn’t need hat and cane. And he is gentleman, yes. Even with rolled up sleeves, unshaven and unkempt hair. And no turtleneck. Hahahahah

  • Reader22

    Ok no cane I just really want to see him in a top hat. I don’t like turtlenecks maybe a polo shirt and jeans.

  • windsparrow

    @ violet, Jane looks so naked wearing pants, shirt and jacket with no vest. Makes me want to avert my eyes because I feel like I’m intruding.

    That is very much a product of Baker’s care in crafting his character, that such a small change to his appearance is so very meaningful.

  • suzjazz

    lol windsparrow! Jane is the only guy who could look naked without his vest! 🙂
    I’m going to say something inappropriate re Jane and his clothes: I’d like to see him with as little clothing on as possible. I’ve seen some promo pics of Baker with bare torso that are hot, hot, hot!
    But unless Jane and Lisbon end up on the Riviera together after RJ is dead, we won’t get to see them in their swimsuits. Sorry anomaly and C. Hill–I’m sure you’d like to see Lisbon in a swimsuit!
    🙂

  • suzjazz

    C hill and windsparrow have given me hope that there may actually be a season 7. That would be awesome! But if RJ is caught in season 6, as BH says he will be, what will season 7 be about? A whole season of Jisbon interspersed with the crime of the week? A focus on Cho with a woman worthy of him this time? (Altho I liked Summer) All of the above? Please, god, no more serial killers! 🙂

  • Reader22

    All that plus finishes stories that need to be finished. But TONS of jisbon!!

  • windsparrow

    Suzjazz wrote, “But unless Jane and Lisbon end up on the Riviera together after RJ is dead, we won’t get to see them in their swimsuits.”

    You know, I have been saying since the end of season Four that if Jane had a lick of sense, he would take Lisbon and run to keep her safe. Iif I were in charge, I’d have Jane swing by Monte Carlo to clean out a few cassinos to fund their escape, then they could drift all over the Mediterranean, lounging about on beaches as they pleased. I’m sure we would all enjoy the view.

  • phoenixx

    Geez, one day abstinent and the comments blow up. O_o

    Totally on board with anyone about cothing choices and wanting to see a bit more skin from both, the only hope I have though is that maybe at the end we’ll get to see Jane surfing.

    To the ones discussing the romance not being part fo the plan and the writers not caring for that. I’m not sure this is true. Personaly I think Jisbon or Lisbane (as it seems to be a new term coming up) was planned by Heller right from the start. By now we’ve discussed so many subtle things happening on the show it’s now surprise they handle their relationship the same way and let’s face it it’s why we love this ship so much. Another thing which makes me believe this is if you look at the scripts from season one especially how the writers explained thoughts/actions of Lisbon or Jane they were not exactly sister/brother like or even friends like.
    There’s one excerpt on tumblr going around from S1E2 where Lisbon clearly thinks about what if Jane actually is setting up a romantic dinner for them. And if he really doesn’t care why does Heller himself write things like the “love you”, “you’re a little in love with him/her”…all things that were in no way necessary for the plot but he did write it.

    On the Season 7 issue, Heller made clear in this interview that he doesn’t think it should end with RJ. He want to show Jane moving on which in a way makes me nervous because that could well mean he doesn’t plan a big Jisbon/Lisbane thing for S6 but would put that into S7. I truly hope CBS will be in for another season as I would hate for it to end with RJ. However I’m sure we’ll get S7 if CBS wants it. Everyone else is already on board, after all the actors all signed for 7 seasons right from the start so no question about that.

    Regarding the whole should Jane tell Lisbon before it’s too late? Well I think so, like someone above mentioned she already is a target and RJ knows about his feelings. And it’s interesting isn’t it he is the one always saying “Better to regret something you’ve done than something you haven’t” and “Better to ask for forgiveness than asking for permission” (BTW I think the latter would be a nice line after he kissed her LOL.)

  • phoenixx

    windsparrow wrote: “You know, I have been saying since the end of season Four that if Jane had a lick of sense, he would take Lisbon and run to keep her safe. Iif I were in charge, I’d have Jane swing by Monte Carlo to clean out a few cassinos to fund their escape, then they could drift all over the Mediterranean, lounging about on beaches as they pleased. I’m sure we would all enjoy the view.”

    Oh yes, pretty please. Can we wrangle you into the writers team somehow 😀
    But I guess Jane would have to take the whole team with him. RJ would surely go after them if Jane and Lisbon make a run for it.

  • Rose UK

    How funny. I come to my desk to do some *cough* work *cough* only to find the comments have gone mad! *Makes cartoon goggle eyes*.

    Windsparrow, you’ve got it well worked out! May I suggest Italy as well on their European tour? Food, music, art, history, culture… Jane in a nutshell. 😉

  • windsparrow

    @ Rose UK Italy, certainly, as well as Spain, Portugal, the south of France, some of the islands, etc. Jane would keep them moving, I think. He would try to convince Lisbon to get a sailboat, but she would not be an easy sell. At some point there would be some gorgeous, ancient church that Jane would fall in love with, and insist on getting married there – maybe not an official marriage that would leave a paper trail, but they could make their vows to each other privately like in West Side Story….

    Um, I had better stop while I’m ahead. The last thing we need is for me to write fanfic in thread.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Nice script, windsparrow. I’d love it. Run off with glamour. This has my vote.

  • suzjazz

    @windsparrow

    “You know, I have been saying since the end of season Four that if Jane had a lick of sense, he would take Lisbon and run to keep her safe. Iif I were in charge, I’d have Jane swing by Monte Carlo to clean out a few cassinos to fund their escape, then they could drift all over the Mediterranean, lounging about on beaches as they pleased. I’m sure we would all enjoy the view.”

    Brava! Agreed! Why the hell doesn’t he take her on the run–or at least try to convince her that it’s necessary? (which would take some effort–she would not willingly leave the job she loves) That would be an awesome plot twist to occur next season: they run away together in a kind of “Fugitive” narrative trying to hide from RJ. Think about it: Jane has made Lisbon promise not to tell the rest of the team about what they know, and taking on RJ just the two of them would be way too dangerous. But then Jane would have to give up his revenge. Would he do that for Lisbon?

    I really love this idea.

  • anomalycommenter

    III Frogs: Being blocked by the moderation filter is frustrating in itself, more so when you are responding to someone’s kind words! 🙂 Well, thanks a lot! (Yet, I totally understand its point, just saying that if WordPress could have had a more accurate spam filtering system. Honestly, what is in our comments that triggers that filtering function? )

    Suzjazz: Of course if I deny what you said above, I would be lying! Well, there you have my confession! 🙂

    Rose UK: You’re not alone; this blog and the show have distracted me of my work, too! 🙂 Well, I guess I’ve just found some clever repetition of words (or maybe saw too much into trivial things): Bertram initially denied Lisbon’s request in ‘Red in Tooth and Claw’ for Van Pelt’s stipend on the grounds that “times are tight”, which later revealed to be just a false excuse, he could, but he was not willing to help at first. Well, the bank robber in ‘Not One Red Cent’ uses the exact same words with the exact same tone and posture in the interrogation room in front of Lisbon as a false excuse for his presence in some banks before them being rubbed! Now how popular that phrase is, I don’t know, but could it indicate that Bertram knows something about Red John, yet is hesitant to do anything lest it endanger some shady business of his?

    Violet: Glad you enjoyed that silly shoe-shopping method of mine! 🙂 Back to *serious* business, there seems to be two other instances of driving tragedy & alcohol: ’Bloodhounds’, Valerie Bestin, hit a homeless man while driving drunk, and the info that the man is now kept in a secure mental facility, causes Lisbon to ask: “Speaking of mental facilities, have you seen Jane?”! ‘Fugue in Red’: Someone appearing to be drunk calls the CBI and causes the team to discover the whereabouts of Jane, who has temporary lost his memory and has returned to the*psychic* business of his, and as part of his show in a local bar/restaurant in which everybody is drinking beer claims to have made a connection with the mother of a woman who is revealed to has died in a car crash!

  • III Frogs

    Indeed, @anomaly, at least you end up with a brand new pair just like you had before, Patrick Jane ends up the the literal same shoe! Wonder how old those are? 🙂

  • C Hill

    “‘Fugue in Red’: Someone appearing to be drunk calls the CBI and causes the team to discover the whereabouts of Jane, who has temporary lost his memory and has returned to the*psychic* business of his”

    and, of course, anomaly, this quickly leads to “the slap” — perhaps the funniest moment of physical comedy in the mentalist so far.

    i like the idea of Jane and Lisbon on the run, though I wonder how that fits into the whole RJ killing spree arc. While I understand the romantic nature of the thought, at the end of the day there’s going to be no running to safe ground from RJ.

    a little 3-6 epi arc of traveling the US would be interesting…”Desert Rose” — Phoenix, Tucson? “Take a tour of the Lone Star state?” Dallas, Austin? Kansas City. Iowa. Chicago. Eh, possibilities.

    i look forward to a “serial” season 6. if there’s going to be a season 7, the RJ reveal will have to come late. i’d love to see a show completely switch for it’s final season — can you imagine a season 7 of The Mentalist as a homage to say shows like McMillan and Wife or Remington Steele? yeah, i’m probably not right 🙂

  • phoenixx

    I’m going to ramble again but after rewatching the epsiode in which we met Haffner (and he still is my No.1 RJ suspect) I thought about the hint that Haffner had asked Cho if he thinks that Jane is smarter than him and Haffner and Cho says yes. Haffner was actually quite taken aback when Cho said that and then I my mind travelled to RJ’s Video in which he says thorugh Lorelei that he Jane just thinks he clever, but he’ll show him clever.

    In a way I think there’s a resemblance and it striked me as odd that RJ used the word clever which just sounded almost childish. Also at the end when Bertram tells him off, Haffner is really controlled and though you see he is pissed he doesn’t show it but leaves quietly (like he’s eating it up instead of letting is anger out). Plus Lorelei’s remark about them not becoming friends when they first shook hands. Haffner tried to get along with Jane and working with him, all the time Haffner never said anything bad towards Jane just told him calmly he knew what he was up to when Jane took the team apart slowly.

    To recruit Cho is also something which is weird in the sense that he believed Cho would go behind his old teams back. RJ ‘recruits’ his followers by giving them something they want/need and for someone like Cho his Job is the most important thing. But RJ didn’t count on his loyalty – just like Haffner didn’t Count on Lisbon’s loyalty to Jane (‘The Red Barn’) ?

    Another thing is Lisbon’s life decision which Heller mentioned in an interview. From S4 on the family theme has been thrown into Lisbon’s face, first Rigsby’s son, her brother with Annie and not to mention all the Kids cases, the last one being the sister and brother which reminded her of her teenage life, even Greg with his three children (a life she could be having). And of course Baby Caitlin in the finale.
    Everytime she was shown wistful, so I wonder if her looking at her ‘feelings’, her ‘life’ will be that.

    *quits rambling* This happens when I’m not sleeping…oh well.

  • anomalycommenter

    III Frogs: Well, he was starting to get used to his new rental shoes, but there was no chance for that bad choice to get the approval of Lisbon! 🙂

    C Hill: Lol! Due to a lack of proper understanding of English language, I was wondering what was this “the slap” you are referring to, until I realized that not every slap is a slap in the face! 🙂

    Phoenixx: Totally valid points, Cho having a no nonsense character and being a good Judge of people, the probable truth in his judgment struck Haffner badly. Though he mostly tried to keep it hidden, but there was a sense of rivalry with Jane in him from the start.

  • C Hill

    “C Hill: Lol! Due to a lack of proper understanding of English language, I was wondering what was this “the slap” you are referring to, until I realized that not every slap is a slap in the face! ”

    ha! well, yes, there does seem to be a bit of a bias here about jane taking the beatings 🙂

  • C Hill

    and above i really meant to say a bias of jane being the “recipient of physical contact”. beating is a bit strong for that playful slap on the behind.

    also, back to one of suzjazz’s comments, i don’t need to see Lisbon in a swimsuit — a nice dress or skirt every now and again would be fine.

    and, suzjazz, regarding what a S7 might look like (and this is clearly purely speculative and putting the cart well before the horse), i think you have to consider the strong possibility that Lisbon (assuming she lives, which I think you have to) would either have to leave CBI or run CBI. if she leaves, then perhaps she finds her niche in the market like her “buddy” Ray opening her own shop and hiring Jane as employee #1? or maybe a season of Lisbon working for Jane? Jane running CBI? 🙂

    tricky. it would be a bit of work to get a full season out of that without some kind of season long arc.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Hey, guys. In my wish list I put knowing more about every single suspect from Jane’s list. I do like playing the detective, trying figure out myself who is Red John. But how so, without good clues even of how Jane narrowed down his list? Some suspects we saw once. I hope the season 6 give us the chance to know better them.
    I was convinced by one of you, guys, that Haffner is the better candidate. Have you ever thought how crazy was Jane get absolved by killing a fake Red John and start working with the real one?

  • Rose UK

    @ Carla: That would certainly mess with his mind! And yes, we definitely need some investigation on screen next year. Having just seen a Visualise episode that I hadn’t seen in ages, I’m now intrigued by Stiles in particular. Visualise with the eyes, all-seeing… The surveillance idea… Possibly some kind of link there? At any rate, Stiles is the only viable source of info still alive and the writers need to address this. Soon!

    I’ve also got another addition to my wish list… if you can bear it. 😉 They’re showing re-runs of season 3 on the telly-box at the moment, and based on Bloodstream – playing right now! – I would like:

    1) Some non-traditional cross-team interactions. Jane and Cho were giving each other complicit “ohhh lordy” looks when Lisbon is mid-flow in insulting LaRoche, and it reminded me of Suz’s comment that they could be friends… This is something I’d definitely like to see. For the comedy! And in the same vein, what about some Lisbon/Van Pelt, or Lisbon/Rigsby, or indeed even Jane or Cho/Van Pelt? I realise I might get people throwing their Mentalist DVDs at me for saying that (as it detracts from all the Jane/Lisbon time), but I think it would be kind of nice and add to the family & trust vibe. Maybe even get a few little heart-to-hearts of some description? 😉

  • suzjazz

    @Carla
    I do like playing the detective, trying figure out myself who is Red John. But how so, without good clues even of how Jane narrowed down his list?

    I feel exactly the same way. We just haven’t been given enough clues throughout the entire series. That’s the one fault (besides lack of Jisbon) that I find with the series. We need to be given some clues, something we can go on. I want to hear Jane explain to Lisbon exactly how he narrowed down his list so we can be on the same page. Especially when two of the suspects only appeared on one episode each and we know next to nothing about them. At least we have seen Kirkland, Hafner, Bertram, and Stiles several times and can draw some conclusions from their actions–Bret Partridge has only appeared on 3 episodes (I think) and then only for one short scene. And he is so obviously creepy that I keep thinking he’s too obvious a suspect.

    Someone said that RJ will end up being an “average” guy who doesn’t raise any red flags. He will project an unsuspicious persona and perhaps even be able to move freely around the CBI without arousing suspicion. This is why I also think Hafner is a good possibility–especially considering his connection to Visualize and being at the farm when we know RJ was there.

    So yes, we need a lot more to go on. It’s no fun playing detective without any clues.

  • suzjazz

    Rose,
    I *totally* think that Cho and Jane should become friends and co-conspirators against RJ. At some point, Jane will have to let the rest of the team in on the new info. He and Lisbon can’t catch RJ without backup. And Cho is the one who is second in command to Lisbon: if anything happened to her, he would be in charge of the unit. Jane and Cho have already been shown as complicit in illegal and unethical actions taken without Lisbon’s knowledge–always with the intent of catching a criminal, of course. If Jane could befriend LaRoche, he should certainly befriend Cho, who has his back and respects his intelligence (though he might not admit it) I think Cho likes Jane and vice versa. I wouldn’t mind if it took a little time away from Jane/Lisbon. i don’t think they are going to devote much time to human relationships of any kind in season 6 (though I could be wrong) It sounds like all Red John, all the time. But we shall see.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I prefer the Jane and Lisbon in Monte Carlo vibe from Windsparrow. This is so magic!

  • phoenixx

    *SPOILER (OR NOT SO MUCH)*
    The writers are back on twitter and sent a photo of an episode script with two lines:

    http://www.spoilertv.co.uk/images/the-mentalist/Season%206/Misc/The+Mentalist+-+Season+6+-+Script+Tease.jpg.jpg.php

    And someone on tumblr wrote this to the last line:
    The quote “Hell is other people” is referring to No Exit, an old French play. In the play, three criminals are trapped together, and two end up dying. The last one standing says “Hell is other people.” It is saying that being tormented by a person you can’t escape from is far worse than physical punishment.

    Well that’s certainly intriguing.

  • Rose UK

    Intriguing indeed… I wonder how this might relate to the episode title. Which brings me to a question: how many episodes have the word “rose” in the title, and of these how many feature Erica Flynn? I can think of 2 for 2, but I wasn’t sure if it was a “thing” or not. Guess I’ll find out soon enough! A previous post of mine has gone completely AWOL, so in brief: the desert rose apparently takes a long time to bloom and has poisonous sap. Hm. More food for thought.

    Also, having recently seen The Blood on his Hands, Stiles tells Jane he would “cross desert wastes” to help him. As the writer wasn’t Bruno, I’m putting it down to a mere figure of speech, but all the (metaphorical) imagery this language evokes is pretty compelling: roses, deserts, wastes, hell… Burning, scorching, thirst, torment, being lost, finding rescue/a way, thorns, possibly siren-like beauty, tortuous journeys, oases…

    And Phoenixx: is that a photo of a wartime soldier below the line? And the word “cherry” above? Is that also to do with the episode, do you think? They’re such teases, those writers. 😉

    @ Carla: Somehow I suspect the writers won’t go for Windsparrow’s epic vision! Heh. 😉

  • C Hill

    phoenixx, it might be a soldier’s cap — might not. i think that is quite a good teaser pic.

    regarding the lovely erica flynn, morena baccarin is about 5 months pregnant right now, which i think would leave her out of the mentalist for a bit (well, that and homeland…), though the return of a pregnant erica flynn could set off some fireworks..ha.

  • Rose UK

    I see… Practicalities, eh? 😉 What a shame – it would’ve appealed greatly to my sense of order to continue the rose = Erica titles!

    Also: I just realised how ridiculous it is to say “wartime soldier”. I meant specifically WW2.

  • anomalycommenter

    Wow, that’s very intriguing, thanks everybody! The reference to the Sartre’s “No Exit” play, as is clear by the corresponding Wikipedia article, is striking in that it shows how relevant the perceived Sin/Virtue theme Violet and Rose UK mentioned can be. And the soldier cap can refer to ‘Joseph Garcin’, a character of the play who apparently deserted army during WWII, have no idea what cherry might mean, maybe referring to a relation with other episodes that have cherry in their names and especially ‘Devil’s Cherry’. Thought I’m not at all familiar with the subject matter of philosophy, but watching an old three part BBC production about Existentialism titled “Human, all too human” some years back was a real treat. If you are interested, you can find different postings of it on youtube, though not of great quality. Also Someone somewhere mentioned that Desert Rose could also be a false rose, a mineral found in deserts resembling a rose flower.

  • III Frogs

    @anomoly The desert rose, mineral, is a crystalline form of gypsum. Lots of variations and colors, depending on the other minerals present as it formed, and very beautiful, lots of pictures in a search.

    Also, not sure which you were looking at on Entwife Incognito’s tumblr, nose punches or angst, but yeah she’s pretty wrapped up in it right now. 🙂

  • KM

    KM,
    First time commenter. Just a clarification, the three characters are dead in Sartre’s ‘Huis Clos’ (‘No Exit’) when they arrive in the drawing room decorated in Second Empire style. The drawing room itself is Hell. The three come to realize that there are no physical torments and no actual torturer in hell, they have been put together to torment each other. There are no mirrors in the room, so each of them is seen only by the other two, not by him- or herself. Thus, they can neither avoid one another’s gaze nor escape one another’s judgment. They loose the freedom to determine their own self-essence, and are finally dehumanized as objects subject to the gaze of the others and the audience. Eventually they begin to tell the truths about themselves and what they did to be sent to hell: Garcin was executed by the army because he tried to leave the country without fighting, Inez was killed by her lover after she taunted the woman about her husband’s death, and Estelle murdered her illegitimate child. And, when offered a chance for redemption, the opening of the closed door (huis clos), they choose to remain inside.

  • III Frogs

    It looks like many of you have the reply button back and can reply directly to a commenter and not just the whole review in general. I still don’t have that. Is it a Mac vs PC thing? I have a Mac. Or is it a setting that I can change?

  • KM

    Just a quick note. All three characters in Sartre’s ‘Huis Clos’ are dead. They meet in Hell. My apologies if this is a repeat. My longer comment has not appeared.

  • anomalycommenter

    III Frogs: Thanks for the info! Does anybody really have it back? Using PC in both IE & Chrome, which has the same engine as Safari, I don’t have it back. Don’t think it could be hardware or browser related. There’s a check box for that in the settings section of Reviewbrain’s blog that she can alter. But we can respond to individual comments using the reply button that is present in the comments that are posted to our email, it just doesn’t appear nested, info thanks to Carla!

    Also think that what Rose UK said about Desert Rose, the plant, is interesting, too, especially in it being a poisonous plant similar to Belladonna, and the word ‘CHERRY’ that is present in that picture.

  • III Frogs

    Ah! Thanks for the tip, anomaly and Carla! It works. Not the reply button, but at least you can see what you’re replying to as you write. Yay!

    I saw Rose UK’s comment about DR being poisonous but I did not make the connection to belladonna. It will be soooooo interesting to finally find out which desert rose they have in mind! Shooting starts Monday!!! Hopefully, we’ll get some behind the scenes and production photos pretty quick, maybe some little leaks. Anything juicy and full of possibilities will be fun!

  • anomalycommenter

    You’re welcome! I, too, would love some teasing and not too spoilery leaks! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Hi Suz, yes, it sounds like it’s going to be quite an RJ-heavy season, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t be able to fit in some nice team-bonding moments. In fact, the heightened danger and intensity might even encourage some of the cross-team action I was talking about: they need to make more use of the team’s skills all in conjunction (Grace and her computer; Cho and his blunt insight and decisive nature; Rigsby and, err, well, Rigsby and his general all-purpose policeman-ness) and as the trust grows and the bonds get stronger, Jane will hopefully find something that he’s been missing. What I basically want is a Mentalist A-Team, all working together. Including LaRoche, Minelli, Hightower (wherever she is), etc. A little army of sorts, all contributing in some way. I think Jane needs to learn to trust the power of teamwork and friendship, tbh. 😉 As opposed to the brittle power of Red John’s network of unstable acolytes.

  • suzjazz

    “L’enfer, c’est l’autre.” (Hell is other people) Wow! That just happens to be one of my favorite quotations. I was a French major in college and i am still a huge Sartre acolyte. On my Facebook page, this quote is listed along with Einstein’s “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” I can see many ways in which this quote could apply to TM, but why now? What in particular does it refer to? Sartre, as an existentialist, believed that existence was meaningless, though he was not a nihilist. This could refer to Jane’s despair: he feels his existence is meaningless, he has been lost “in the desert” since the murder of his wife and child, and it’s interesting that he is seeking revenge on their behalf, not absolution for himself. It’s an open question as to whether he will feel absolved of responsibility for their deaths when he finally destroys Red John. Where TM and existentialism part ways is the role of Lisbon in Jane’s life: the possibility that he can love again, with love giving his life meaning. Now there is a struggle going on between Jane’s desire for vengeance and his need to protect the woman he loves. A meaningless existence (except as an avenger) vs. a potential life endowed with meaning. I may be stretching this too far, but it’s no accident that the French are such big fans of TM. This opens the door to more of the analysis that we mentalistas are so fond of!

  • III Frogs

    I like your open question, suzjazz. To me the revenge does not absolve the responsibility. I think Patrick will always know the part he played and feel it, sometimes more, sometimes less, hopefully will come a time when he feels it rarely in consciousness. But it will always be a thread of who he is, part of the Patrick tapestry. The revenge is not his atonement, the way I see it, it is Red John’s atonement, Patrick making him pay for what he did to his family. I think Patrick would feel he is not justified for atonement himself and doesn’t even ask it. But he does now see that he can have more, move on, even in his guilt. Except that his quest for revenge has now cast him as the dark plaything of a serial killer. This, too, is almost certainly of his own making. Had he accepted Red John’s “punishment” somehow, I feel no more notice would have been taken of him. But in his hubris, he has now put the one woman he loves into the same danger as his family. He must nearly despair sometimes at seeing the cycle repeat, especially because he again bears responsibility in powering it. I believe he might well have moved on now, if he hadn’t ensnared himself again, and begun a new life, probably with Lisbon, already. I believe Patrick seeks meaning, with all his heart. He is a man full of life and the love of the things of life: nature, woman, family, children, good food, tea. But he must free himself from the jaws of a trap that he helped set. It’s all very tragic, isn’t it.

    Whew! You struck a chord in me!

  • Rose UK

    I don’t think you’re stretching it too far at all – makes perfect sense to me! Jane is “faithless” – he doesn’t believe in much of anything (now, at least) – he certainly doesn’t believe in the comforting idea of an afterlife that also gives some people’s lives meaning. Also funny that Jane tells Danny Ruskin to “move on; find somebody to love”, but won’t accept the same advice for himself (can’t recall who told him the same thing). Everyone seems to understand in a very instinctive, immediate and fundamental way what gives life meaning, regardless of (or in addition to) religious views, but Jane chooses to ignore it. Up to this point, the only thing that has brought meaning to his life is, ironically, Red John. In some sort of perverse and symbiotic way, it’s been keeping him afloat all this time. Although I also think that Lisbon has gradually been supplanting RJ – almost unnoticed and almost certainly without Jane wanting it to be that way. Because Jane *chose* the RJ revenge path and he hasn’t really let much else in since. And if there was no Lisbon to fall back on, he’d be lost again after dispatching RJ (in my view). So I think he needs to learn that fulfilment can be gained from love and friendship instead – hence my teamwork wish. 😉

    I feel I’ve kind of just re-expressed your point, Suz!

  • Rose UK

    Missing post repeat alert! Frogs, I agree re: little joys of life. 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    Very cute, Windsparrow, even though I rather Monte Carlo. I just can’t help myself thinking about that.

  • Rose UK

    Aaaaaand in an edit to my previous post: I meant to say that I’m pretty sure Jane did not want Lisbon to become his number one priority *at least at first*. Now? Yep, I think Frogs is right and that he’s probably regretting his earlier choices. He didn’t want to let people into his heart at the start because they would just get in the way of his quest; now, he *can’t* let them in because he has grown to care, despite himself, and he’s afraid that history will repeat itself. And I would also like to correct myself: “learning” about fulfilment was probably the wrong word. He knows, I’m sure. Perhaps “trust” would be better. 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    You can use a bottom reply from your own e-mail like I do.

  • Lou Ann

    suzjazz: It’s been a long time since I had to study existentialism. Is there any connection between that philosophy and the Visualize teachings we’ve been exposed to?

  • Rose UK

    @ Carla & Windsparrow: So no London/England, then? 😉 I mean, we have tea! No? Not convinced? Gosh, I can’t think why… *pictures Jane and Lisbon sitting on a seaside bench in the rain, eating soggy fish ‘n’ chips and shivering.*

  • suzjazz

    Lou Ann,
    I don’t have enough information on the Visualize core beliefs: all we are told is that they believe in the transformative power of the human will, that you can be whatever you want to be if you can *visualize* it. While this doesn’t necessarily contradict existentialism, it isn’t the same thing either. I see Visualize as being very New Age, emphasizing human potential. I am by no means an expert on any kind of philosophy, though, so it might be better to look up the wiki on existentialism–I am going to do that when I get a chance–college was a long time ago!

  • suzjazz

    Rose and Frogs: Your analyses are both much more detailed and to the point than mine was. We are all saying essentially the same thing. The “faith vs. faithless or non-believer” meme is frequently explored on TM. Most recently, Sean Barlow says to Lisbon, “You are a woman of faith,” pointedly implying that Jane is not a man of faith. Jane has said that he wishes he had a God to pray to or that he would be praying if he believed in [Lisbon’s] God (as in the episode in which Lisbon has a bomb strapped on her and she is praying as Jane drives them to the CBI to get the data that the criminal wants)

    An existentialist has no God–he or she is not a person of faith. The universe is vast, full of life and death, energetic, but ultimately, meaningless. Jane is a very vocal atheist and non-believer in the afterlife; yet when he drinks the belladonna tea he has a very realistic hallucination of his now teenage daughter, who is dead but come to life. He wants so badly to believe that she still exists that he is shown drinking the tea again at the end of the episode in hopes of seeing her again. (I think it would be great in season 6 if Charlotte returns in a dream, perhaps, to advise him or chastise him. Charlotte is Jane’s better self, his conscience, the part of him that wants to give up pursuing RJ (“I’m so over Red John!”) Despite his protestations, Jane is not a man of no faith. He also has the ability to love. And there is a part of him that wants to be free of his vengeance and thus able to begin a new life full of all the things he continues to enjoy despite his despair: good food, children, jokes, flowers, etc.

    So I’m not sure that “Hell is other people” specifically refers to Jane. It’s true that he is in his own personal hell, created by Red John but perpetuated by Jane himself. Red John will not let him rest, will never leave him alone, and knows that he can’t just walk away when RJ murders someone. In that sense, RJ is the “other people” whose gadfly-like presence is worse than physical suffering. But the fact that Jane can’t turn away from forcing RJ to atone for his evil is proof of his faith that good and evil do exist. RJ, on the other hand, thinks that there is no good and evil, it is only “thinking makes it so,” as Shakespeare would say.

    I am getting way too into this and the more I write the less sense it makes–I am just throwing out ideas at this point. 🙂

  • III Frogs

    suzjazz and Rose UK, I also don’t think that “hell is other people” refers to Jane. I think it would more likely refer to Red John and/or maybe his minions, especially that now we’re looking at a more serialized Red John season ahead. Just a guess. In the truest sense, although Jane may have aggravated the serial killer, Red John is Jane’s hell. No matter how irritating Jane’s behavior might have been to RJ, it was RJ who decided to kill his family and so the whole cycle really started. Jane feels blame and responsibility then and now that his actions focused RJ attentions on himself and Lisbon, by his own hubris, and trapped him. But it is RJ who bears the ultimate responsibility for his own actions. And in no one but a psychotic and malignant narcissist’s playbook is multiple murder and mayhem a justifiable response to insult or aggravation.

    When I first saw our first leaked “clue,” I thought what worthless garbage, even though I followed what people were saying about it. Thanks to the discussion here, I’m beginning to see its possible relevance and its worthiness to be broken down, “taken down to the molecules” as I often call it.

    Great discussion and thanks!

  • Rose UK

    Suz & Frogs… Think you’ve put it beautifully. 🙂

    I just looked up a brief definition of existentialism (I know nothing about philosophy), and I found it interesting that it’s all about the individual determining their own self, their essence or nature, through the choices they make. This is rather fascinating in light of your comments about a hell of one’s own making (agreed: Jane may not have started it, but he’s certainly not doing himself any favours either).

    We never really move far away from the “which path will Jane choose?” idea, do we? Although it’s explored in a variety of ways…

    And reading just a little more about it all (in bite-size pieces!), I’m also getting the impression that we can link the quote and its background to our mirroring theme too. From what I am reading, it seems that Sartre suggests that we define ourselves by how other people view us (please correct me if I’m wrong!) or how we interact with them, which has interesting connotations both in terms of Lisbon/Jane and RJ/Jane. Imagine being defined by the monster you’re hunting! No wonder it’s hell. Hell is other people because they are always watching you, judging you, and they are your mirror. Obviously, of the two, Lisbon provides him with the best reflection of himself.

    Basically, I like what you’re saying: Jane lacks faith, but he *wants* it deep down. So he needs to make the choices that will lead him there, to determine his essence on the basis of Lisbon’s view of him. If that makes *any sense at all* It’s very late and I’m getting tangled up in my head!

    Maybe we should go back to talking about top hats and vests (or waistcoats as we Brits would have it). 😉

  • KM

    @ Rose UK,

    That is the interpretation I take away too. It also works as another literature connection. (I confess that I have not read ‘Huis Clos’ in French, but in English. I’ve watched it being performed in French.) In the play the three characters (Garcin, Inez, and Estelle) discover that hell is a drawing room in Second Empire style complete with a valet. They soon realize that although there are no physical torments and no actual torturer in hell, they have been put together to torment each other. There are no mirrors in the room, so each of them is seen only by the other two, not by him- or herself. They can neither avoid one another’s gaze nor escape one another’s judgment. Eventually they begin to see themselves as objects; only the essentialisms that have been imposed on them. And, at one point the closed door (huis clos) of the drawing room opens, but they chose to remain (ignore a chance of redemption); choosing to subject themselves to the objectifying gaze of one another but also to the audience. Essentially the characters, save Inez, accept the loss of their freedom and the ubiquitous presence of alienation and despair.

    Red John and Lisbon offer two reflections of Jane. This touches on how we the ways we recognize one another and formulate our identities. Who is Jane? I’d like to think that Lisbon offers the more accurate reflection.

  • III Frogs

    KM, hi, Absolutely I think Lisbon does offer the more accurate reflection of who Jane is, the whole Jane. I think Patrick has come to realize it from a really deep place, at last. Previously Patrick probably saw himself almost totally as reflected by RJ, as that partial, twisted human being RJ wanted to create. It would be difficult for anyone to resist ceding that power to someone who had wreaked the almost total annihilation and control of the most human parts of his life. There’s probably still some of that going on, on bad days, that last scene in the attic with the DVD maybe for one, The murder of his family was such a consuming event in his life that he may have had no idea there was any other way to see himself but as a reflection of that event and the man who perpetrated it.

    Deep stuff. I have to believe he weathers it, triumphs and can finally move on with the only woman who truly knows him and still loves him, relentlessly. Ay, what a saga!

  • suzjazz

    Beautifully expressed, Rose, spot on.
    I also think that Lisbon offers the better reflection of Jane’s true self. Though it can’t be denied that RJ mirrors the dark side of his nature. Perhaps I am an optimist, but from my observation of Jane, I believe he will ultimately choose the path of light, not darkness. There is a lot of good in Jane. It remains to be seen if he can free himself from his obsession with revenge. He may be forced to make a choice between his revenge and Lisbon.

    If we use broad symbolism to view Lisbon as good and RJ as evil, then good will triumph over evil if BH wants a happy ending. (You are right–Dickens’ novels more often than not do have a happy ending; I was thinking of the end of “Great Expectations” in which Pip and Estella are friends but never become lovers or spouses. Even there, Dickens had another alternate ending in which they marry. He believed in the greatness of the human spirit and the triumph of good over evil, though he was also a realist and wanted to expose in fiction the terrible, tragic fate of the poor in mid-19th century England.) The darkness of TM, now unrelieved by the levity of former seasons, naturally makes us fear that the end will be tragic. But it’s not inevitable. Heller always has a hidden surprise. He may be planning to give us the opposite of what we fear and expect.

    “Maybe we should go back to talking about top hats and vests (or waistcoats as we Brits would have it). ;)”

    I think we have a good balance here at RBB between fun and serious business! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    I just wrote a comment to Rose and it is in RBB limbo at the moment–I hope it will eventually see the light of day…

  • suzjazz

    This is what Wikipedia has to say about existentialism (I have never studied Kierkegaard or Heidegger, but apparently they pre-dated Sartre in formulating these ideas, and I for one find the “essence” idea very difficult to process, but I think that the readers of this blog will clearly see how this applies to Jane.)

    Existentialism is a term applied to the work of a number of late 19th- and 20th-century philosophers who, despite profound doctrinal differences,[1][2][3] shared the belief that philosophical thinking begins with the human subject—not merely the thinking subject, but the acting, feeling, living human individual.[4] In existentialism, the individual’s starting point is characterized by what has been called “the existential attitude”, or a sense of disorientation and confusion in the face of an apparently meaningless or absurd world.[5] Many existentialists have also regarded traditional systematic or academic philosophies, in both style and content, as too abstract and remote from concrete human experience.[6][7]

    Søren Kierkegaard is generally considered to have been the first existentialist philosopher,[1][8][9] though he himself did not use the term existentialism. He proposed that each individual—not society or religion—is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely (“authentically”).[10][11] Existentialism became popular in the years following World War II, and strongly influenced many disciplines besides philosophy, including theology, drama, art, literature, and psychology.[12]

    A central proposition of existentialism is that existence precedes essence, which means that the most important consideration for the individual is the fact that he or she is an individual—an independently acting and responsible conscious being (“existence”)—rather than what labels, roles, stereotypes, definitions, or other preconceived categories the individual fits (“essence”). The actual life of the individual is what constitutes what could be called his or her “true essence” instead of there being an arbitrarily attributed essence used by others to define him or her. Thus, human beings, through their own consciousness, create their own values and determine a meaning to their life.[18] Although it was Sartre who explicitly coined the phrase, similar notions can be found in the thought of existentialist philosophers such as Heidegger, and Kierkegaard.

  • phoenixx

    Wow what a great discussion going on here, thanks to everyone who gave some inside to what the line could mean. 😀

    “From what I am reading, it seems that Sartre suggests that we define ourselves by how other people view us (please correct me if I’m wrong!) or how we interact with them, which has interesting connotations both in terms of Lisbon/Jane and RJ/Jane.”

    Thanks Rose, that was my thought process as well. The mirroring theme TM has going on will surely be represented here again, they often had things happen in a case during an episode which ultimately reflected what happens to Jane or someone else on the team, so even if it hasn’t anything to do with Jane directly it will be a mirror for the Jane/RJ, Jane/Lisbon relationship and how these two view Jane.

    ” is that a photo of a wartime soldier below the line? And the word “cherry” above? Is that also to do with the episode, do you think? They’re such teases, those writers”

    Think so, and it will probably have to do something with the “Hell is other people” quote. And maybe the “Cherry” indicates the title though someone on spoiler.tv commented this: “‘cherry’ usually refers to the last script revision before 2nd revisions starts”
    But personally speaking I think it’s a hint to the title.

  • C Hill

    “I do like playing the detective, trying figure out myself who is Red John. But how so, without good clues even of how Jane narrowed down his list?”

    While I agree more information would be nice, I think the only clue used for cutting the list to 7 was that these were the only ones who didn’t have an alibi for all of the RJ crimes. So this was just an exclusionary process — now the detective work begins.

    Also, what a nice burst of excellent posts on the meaning of the picture and the quote! Definitely a lot to think about.

  • C Hill

    Oh, one other quickie, while looking through episodes for flowers and other symbols, I noticed a little something in S04E02. In one of the scenes when Cho is in “Haffner’s” office, there’s an interesting item on the table/hutch/whatever behind the desk: a football trophy.

    Coincidence? Clue? Random item from the prop department?

  • Rose UK

    Love your post, KM. Thank you for the outline of the play – it really brings our ideas into focus. 🙂 Just very quickly, as I’m a little pressed for time, I think that the ‘huis clos’ image is also extremely interesting, given previous discussion on the recurring motif of doors – both opened and closed – in the series… Violet? Was this one of yours?! I seem to remember some posters talking about doors, keys and locks! It’s a great connection, regardless. Clever writers. Have I mentioned that I love this show?!

    @ C Hill. Oooh – you’ll have to talk to Anomaly about the football connection! I seem to remember his post on Van Pelt’s coach-dad!

  • C Hill

    yes, Rose. We have Van Pelt’s father the football coach. Craig the former football player. The Roll Tide/football playing uncle waiter during Jane’s date with Frye. And now maybe something with Haffner…hmmm…

  • zee

    Rose UK wrote: “Was this one of yours?! I seem to remember some posters talking about doors, keys and locks!”

    Me too! Anomaly’s one of them! Sent shivers, that comment did!

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you very much Zee! 🙂 Pretty much hope for it turn out to be true, but frankly I’m not very certain about the accuracy of what I suggested then (about who was holding the key to Julia’s second house at 1309 Orchid lane), it can be interesting if it is actually true and if it’s not the result of my habit of seeing too much into things. Also later my part was just in enlisting some of the instances we saw keys and locks, en masse, relevant or irrelevant, and as Rose UK rightly mentioned, it was Violet who sifted the noteworthy from the ordinary and also added some curious instances about doors, too.

    Wow, so many deep comments on the latest revelation, thanks everybody! 🙂 Also what you Rose and C Hill said about football made me go back and watch that episode again. My goodness, isn’t it curious how everything has a new meaning each time we re-watch old episodes?!

    C Hill is absolutely right. I’m probably repeating others, but that episode was all about sports and many of us, or maybe just me, by now strongly suspect that in the majority of the episodes some aspects of the case of the week and the prevalent theme have something to do with the main characters, including RJ. These cases are by no means randomly selected and are not independent stories. So in this case we can say that it may be about Van Pelt’s and most probably, by what C Hill suggested, Haffner’s connections to football and in that way to RJ. Everybody is doing something related, Jane’s reading a book titled “The Greatest Baseball Stories Ever Told”, Lisbon’s working her damaged arm, and Tork (a member of Haffner’s team mocked by others because of his less than average height) is working his hand muscles. Another thing is that Haffner claims that he was watching Jane every minute and Jane fakes a notebook of suspects (does that not ring a bell?!) Maybe I’m misreading this, or even the notion of double bluffing, but noteworthy is that Haffner is seen to be rude to Van Pelt, but that is not to be expected of RJ as a manipulator, a manipulator in his default mode is bluffing in showing that he cares about people as Jane the conman did before. Or is he actually double bluffing and is showing his true identity in not actually caring about people? I remember Jane went with double bluffing in evaluating RJ’s actions in some episode. It can be said that Jane himself doubly bluffed to Haffner to defeat him in the game they were playing in this episode. Some other thing I found interesting to me for some reason: Jane put a pair of elevator shoes on Tork’s desk! 🙂

  • Lou Ann

    Rose UK states that Existentialism: it’s all about the individual determining their own self, their essence or nature, through the choices they make.
    In The Red Barn, GVP counters to the priest that some of what Bret Stiles teaches in Visualize is “being the best of the person you are” or something like that…self-actualization. It would only make a good person better.
    In her reply to me, Suzjazz, (and thank you for that), states that Visualize philosophy is that “you can be whatever you want to be if you can *visualize* it.”
    To my limited brain, there is a close connection to the two philosophies. I don’t think Visualize would have been so consistently carried through the show if it wasn’t going to be key to the final solution. Bret Stiles is going to be a major player in the resolution of the Red John story arc. So maybe this first episode will bring him back.
    Or I’m just nuts.

  • Lou Ann

    And I could also point out that Jane’s therapist in Red Brick and Ivy, so can’t remember her name, instills in him the idea that the choice to live or die is up to him. His future is in his own hands, not in the hands of fate. His life will be what he makes of it. He is what he makes of himself. That seems very “visualize” too.

  • Rose UK

    Sounds very plausible to me, Lou Ann. I think you’ve drawn a solid link between the two philosophies there! Visualize is about harnessing the power of the mind, so I also wholeheartedly agree with you when you say it will be a major player. 🙂

    Has there been any discussion about the Visualize logo before? At the risk of stepping on toes, I’ve been looking into it a bit… So, it’s an eye – fairly standard, but to me it’s also got that creepy, watchful vibe to it (a bit like Sauron from Lord of the Rings or something! Which would actually tie in with the all-seeing psychic idea, too). The Mentalist wiki site even talks about the cult’s “doctrine of self-realization, the eye as a *door* and key to the ‘six dimensions.'” (Whatever they are.) So maybe there’s another link to the quotation there. On the whole, the logo also reminds me of the sun, which could possibly represent the enlightenment that comes with self-actualization. But there are also some circles, which, moving away from Visualize, could perhaps symbolise the never-ending cyclical nature of Jane and RJ’s relationship (each pushing the other on). And finally, the logo also brings to mind the ‘third eye’ idea, which I don’t know much about, but which fits in nicely with ‘mind’ matters. 😉

    Anyway, back from my tangent: if Stiles is a ‘desert rose’ of some description, then I can quite imagine an opening episode in which he divulges more information in the current wasteland of investigative leads – but at some kind of cost (i.e. the toxic sap)…

  • Rose UK

    Meant to add: Stiles seems to ‘see’ and know everything… He even tells Jane that he (Stiles) knows more than he (Jane) will ever know… (or something of the sort).

  • suzjazz

    I think my beautiful definition of existentialism has been lost forever in cyberspace, but luckily I saved some of it in a document:

    A quote from Jean-Paul Sartre re “Huis Clos” :

    “So that, in truth, as we are alive, I wanted to show, by means of the absurd, the importance to us of freedom, that is to say, the importance of changing acts by other acts. Whatever circle of hell in which we live, I think that we are free to break [it]. And if people do not break it, they stay there of their own free will. So they put themselves freely in hell.”
    [As usual, Google translate has made some significant errors in translating the Sartre quote. I have ammended the translation.]

    And there’s this from Wikipedia (bear with me, it’s long, but very relevant to TM):

    Søren Kierkegaard is generally considered to have been the first existentialist philosopher, though he himself did not use the term existentialism. He proposed that each individual—not society or religion—is solely responsible for giving meaning to life and living it passionately and sincerely (“authentically”). Existentialism became popular in the years following World War II, and strongly influenced many disciplines besides philosophy, including theology, drama, art, literature, and psychology.
    A central proposition of existentialism is that existence precedes essence, which means that the most important consideration for the individual is the fact that he or she is an individual—an independently acting and responsible conscious being (“existence”)—rather than what labels, roles, stereotypes, definitions, or other preconceived categories the individual fits (“essence”). The actual life of the individual is what constitutes what could be called his or her “true essence” instead of there being an arbitrarily attributed essence used by others to define him or her. Thus, human beings, through their own consciousness, create their own values and determine a meaning to their life. Although it was Sartre who explicitly coined the phrase, similar notions can be found in the thought of existentialist philosophers such as Heidegger, and Kierkegaard.

    In the context of The Mentalist: The series has always been about personal responsibility and the choice Jane has made to live in a hell of his own making. Jane has put himself freely and willingly into hell in order to avenge the murder of his wife and child. Also, I think Lou Ann’s question about Visualize is answered. Visualize is a cult version of existentialism!

    What would Sartre have made of TM?

  • suzjazz

    Just reposted my lost post.
    I am enjoying a rerun of “Red in Tooth and Claw.” It is interesting to see 1) Lisbon displaying her poker face, which is actually quite good 2) Lisbon stretched out on the couch instead of Jane 3) interesting comment from Jane about Bertram: “He doesn’t *want* to win, he *has* to win.” Is this Red John? But why would he need Jane to teach him how to play poker?

  • phoenixx

    Apparently my other comment got lost in moderation, so I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for these great and insideful discussions going on here.

    Have to agree with Rose about the quote and the possibilty that it’s another type of mirroring. I too think it will be about how RJ and Lisbon view Jane and which of these views Jane will believe at the end and therefore which path he will choose.

    @suzjazz: I rewatched exactly this episode this weekend unbeknownst to it’s repeat on US television and Jane’s comment about Bertram was indeed interesting. It practically says that Bertram would do anything to win a “game” because he hates losing. If he is RJ, well to be fair even if he is RJ why should RJ be an amazing Poker player? Lisbon is a bad liar but somehow manages to be good enough, btw has anyone ever thought it’s strange she got invited, I mean she is playing with the big-wigs who have a way higher salary than Lisbon, if she wouldn’t be any good she’d probably be broke by now. Anyway, I don’t necessarily think RJ needs to be a good bluffer to be who he is, putting on an act and bluffing are two different things, epsecially in an actual game where as Jane mentiones he has to win. And Bertram’s hate of losing is almost childlike, he didn’t help VanPelt because he lost to Manchester. And in RJ’s video the whole speach sounded like a bad loser would that just because of Lorelei Jane now was close and not because he was actually better.

  • Reader22

    Bit random but it’s been stuck in my head for days so I’ve got to ask. Is Bertram the only of the 7 that are married?

  • Lou Ann

    Rose UK, a while back I started collecting references to eyes, sight, vision, etc. from various episodes, starting back when Jane lost his eyesight in Bloodshot, Roy Carmen urging Lisbon to “visualize” the alley where the victim was murdered in Red Badge, and of course the Visualize philosophy and logo. But I am not clever enough to have been able to formulate a cohesive thread. I will delight in anything you can make of it.

  • anomalycommenter

    Well, first of all I’m not familiar with philosophy in the conventional sense and existentialism in particular, no courses or texts, and so apologize in advance if anything I say may turn out to be inaccurate or if I am repeating anybody, but have to tell you that the Wikipedia entry on Existentialism seems to be a very nice introductory material, and based on this limited info I find what you all are saying very interesting. Totally agree with you that most probably Visualize would play a major role in the RJ story, its ideas about building the essence and self-actualization are very similar to that of many of the existentialists, particularly Sartre. Rose UK’s ideas about the Visualize logo is interesting in its similarity to “Sartre’s own example of a man peeping at someone through a keyhole”, only to find himself being watched or at least have such a feeling, much like that “creepy, watchful vibe” she mentions that can be very similar to some aspects of the notion of “Look”. And that is all based on the concept of “the Other”, clearly referred to in “Hell is other people”. Plus we have Jane that apparently his fear of RJ, mostly for the lives those close to him, is gradually turning into “Angst”, as he may feel “Despair” in being himself, in realizing his “being the most clever person in the room” identity in finding the truth and thus reaching to the source of this fear and neutralizing it. On the other hand there seems to be no central authority recognized in the ideas of the loose league of philosophers that are called Existentialists and that is in contrast to those indoctrinated in the Visualize system who apparently live by some strict sets of rules, e.g. planned marriages, and view Stiles as some sort of religious leader who they should follow and confess (vent out) regularly before his central authority and in doing so would live “inauthentic” lives in Existentialist terms. They are actually completely brainwashed and have completely put their *free will* (weather we believe in such notion or not) to one side, they somewhat look hypnotized. And so in this I totally agree with Suzjazz that Visualize doctrine is more like New Age, frankly the first time I saw the first episode about Visualize I was sure that they had modeled it after the Church of Scientology like what the mentalist wikia states.

    Also pardon me if I’m deviating from the central subject, but now that we had a discussion on the philosophy of “the will to power”, which is also prominent in RJ’s views, as I see that there are many philosophical minded and enthusiasts among us, I can’t help not to say that it seems that with its central role in the notion of responsibility, and in Jane’s case the feel of guilt, the “free will problem” may have a scientific resolution involving nonlinear systems and chaos theory that may render historic simplistic two polar views on it outdated.

  • anomalycommenter

    Interesting! Well, I don’t know, but are you suggesting that maybe “He is mar”ried to …? 🙂

    Also Sartre may have got it wrong, actually ‘Hell is this moderation system’! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    @ Anomaly: Heh – that’s got a nice ring to it! Also going to have to bear your comment in mind (about the main plot of each ep. somehow being reflected in some/all of the characters) as that would be extremely neat and tidy of the writers. 😉

    @ Lou Ann: Ooh, that’s interesting. I think you’ve definitely picked up on something very valid there. 😉 I’d be interested to see your list, because I once read another forum site that mentioned the theme of ‘blindness’ but I never really paid much attention to such things till I found the RB blog! And now it’s all coming together… The poster’s points were:
    – The song ‘Amazing Grace’ sung by the team after Bosco’s death (which has the telling line: “I was blind, but now I see”).
    – The music of Bach.
    – Rosalind Harker being blind.

    I think that from all this (and what others have said in this thread regarding Jane’s ‘journey’), you could talk about blind rage, blind revenge, blindness to the truth, etc. to start with, and hopefully finish up with a commentary on ‘seeing the light’ i.e. Jane comes to his senses and realises that his current path is not exactly the best one. Also on a more practical level, I suppose you could have the idea of information = illumination/enlightenment i.e. investigative leads bearing fruit and opening up the team’s eyes to RJ’s identity, etc.

    Perhaps people can expand here?? Violet, were you going to go into this in Themes?

  • Rose UK

    Another tangent: any significance to the names ‘Rosalind’ and ‘Harker’, do we think? The most famous examples being a Shakespeare character and a Dracula character…

  • anomalycommenter

    @ Rose UK: Very nice take on Jane’s journey towards light! 🙂 I totally accept that many times I generalize things too much. I admit it, maybe not the majority but many of the cases of the week do seem to tell stories that somehow remind me of the lives of the main characters, that’s the way I see it and it’s the main interesting point about cases of the week for me, there is correlation, but I’m not certain about the causation direction and about the nature of the collaboration of the writers, could be that all the writers are already completely informed about the intended background of the main characters, or they write a story and Heller edits and adds some fitting elements to it, or maybe Heller tells them beforehand what to include and they write a story around it.

    Also I tried to participate in your interesting discussion about the existentialist elements in the show, but WordPress, judged that my post was total nonsense, and rightly so! 🙂

  • iiifrogs

    OK @anomaly You now have my complete attention. Chaos theory (elegant in it’s inelegant sprawl which is actually its beauty, and it’s power, perhaps self-determining power) is dear to my heart, especially it’s relatively unexplored application to human behavior, perhaps human social behavior is easier to look at. I haven’t thought about chaos theory in years. Do you have particular nonlinear musings in mind? Particular feedback loops you’ve noticed. Bifurcations? Perhaps mirroring is one aspect of that, seems like it would have great potential for a feedback loop. Don’t let me blather on incoherently as my mind becomes the universe where everything is blown wide open! More, more!

  • Carla Oliveira

    So, London is okay to me; nothing against it. I know it’s a pretty City. As long as they are together… And it has tea!

  • anomalycommenter

    @ III Frogs: Thank you for your very kind words! 🙂 Seems that I once again started to talk about an issue that I’m not fitted to comment about. I’m no mathematician, apparently in contrast to you, and don’t have any knowledge of neuroscience or Humanities. I just have a general liking of scientific topics. It just have become a question for me in the last few years why is it that the reflection of the profound advancements of the sciences in the last few decades can’t be seen in people’s systems of thought, and as you mentioned, particularly in the field of Humanities? An example is the ‘anthropic principle’, that coupled with the ever more popular cosmological theory of parallel universes governed by different laws or physical constants (yes I’m absolutely serious as are most of the physicists today) can quite radically alter our view of the problem of our existence. Also as you would certainly understand much better than me, there are certain problems that can’t be adequately formulated in the human language, something that most of the arguments of the better known philosophical systems seems to be coded in, and may require a much more precise language like mathematics. An example from high school is the source of the radical difference in the result of calculating the area under decreasing curves (infinity vs. a finite value). Also what I may have boldly suggested in my last post is not based on any particular research or such that I know of. I just heard of it a few years ago. If I argue about free will and its compatibility or incompatibility with determinism and physical laws, without considering the delicate sciences involved (and I’m not aware of much of them) I may not for example even think of the possibility that a feedback loop in the brain’s circuitry, creating a chaotic system, coupled with the slightest amount of difference in initial conditions, ever present noise or disturbance, can lead to totally different outcomes as perceived decisions! Also there are the related hard problems of the origin of ‘Consciousness’ and the notion of ‘Qualia’, the redness of the color red in ‘the mentalist’ terms, for the scientists to tackle concurrently. I’m certain that there are quite a few specialists on each of these topics among us, like you, to correct me and elaborate more on these topics. The ordinary individual like me that is just interested in these issues can simply follow popular scientific sources. I want to apologize again for my confused deviation from the topic of the blog.

    P.S. After watching the image of myself in the parallel mirrors you’ve put in front of me: I feel incapable of proving or disproving anything, even this exact statement! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    III frogs: Thank you very much! 🙂 My long reply to you is under moderation with the ‘uncertainty’ in release time freely applied to it! I just wanted to say that I’m not a mathematician and do not have formal education in nonlinear system, apparently unlike you. You certainly can elaborate much better than me on these topics.

  • iiifrogs

    No worries @anomaly I assure you whatever knowledge I have of chaos theory is only lay knowledge, beginning with James Gleick’s 1988 book. My background is psychology and I assure you math is the least among the skills of my brain. Luckily no math is really required for a lay appreciation. My husband at the time read it first and I devoured it afterwards. Lay science is one of the blessings of this world, in my humble opinion. I can’t wait until your long post is let out of the moderation gulag!

  • anomalycommenter

    Honored to know! Agree with you completely on the very useful role popular science material can play. Also there’s nothing interesting in my post. In the meantime let me suggest this:

    http://thesciencenetwork.org/programgroup/beyond-belief

  • Lou Ann

    OK, Anomalycommenter, to the last sentence of your long post i say, “Huh?” But to your “creepy, watchful vibe” I say there is nothing more watchful than Red John’s gloating smiley face. It is still on Jane’s wall at his house, and I’m sure residing forever on the back of his brain.

  • North Coast

    Wow! This is such a deep and wide-ranging conversation. I was looking at the “Hell is other people” spoiler picture. My experience reading existentialist literature ended with AP lit and Waiting for Godot. Not being willing to relive that trauma, I went to that font of all knowledge: google. Did you know that “Hell is other people” is the name of an ‘anit-social’ network? Apparently it will calculate your odds of running into people you know so that you can avoid them. Boy, I thought I had problems! Wouldn’t it be funny if Red John uses this site to avoid being caught?

  • C Hill

    another observation — next to the football trophy behind haffner’s desk is, i think, a marksmanship trophy. funny how TM’s crew ends up setting up such odd coincidences in these situations! lol.

    also, anomaly, i apologize for my mischaracterization of Jane’s, er, attention to Lisbon’s rear as a slap — it was really more of a grab upon viewing the scene again. still memorable, but not quite they way i represented it.

  • suzjazz

    @North Coast:
    Did you know that “Hell is other people” is the name of an ‘anit-social’ network? Apparently it will calculate your odds of running into people you know so that you can avoid them. Boy, I thought I had problems! Wouldn’t it be funny if Red John uses this site to avoid being caught?

    the source of a much-needed laugh just now! 🙂
    An anti-social network: brilliant! I think I need to join one.

    @Rose:
    Very insightful observations about Visualize logo (eye) Jane’s and Rosalind’s blindness, the Amazing Grace lyrics–I must admit I totally forgot about that scene–I am now thinking that blindness is a major theme. Blind revenge, of course. But could it also be that Jane is blind to RJ who may be someone he knows? Or Jane’s willful blindness to Lisbon’s suffering from his callous behavior with Lorelei?

    I think we mentalistas should develop a college seminar on The Mentalist. I haven’t seen so much exegesis since my college days, which are so far in the past that I am admitting I am old. 🙂

  • phoenixx

    “Very nice take on Jane’s journey towards light!”

    Agree, and not to forget who was the first person Jane saw after he got his eyeside back, Lisbon. So yeah there’s definitely a theme going on.
    That at the end Jane will see and choose the light aka Lisbon and not the darkness aka RJ.

    Never really thought about the Visualize smybol and the meaning of it before, thanks Rose.

    Geez isn’t it amazing that after all this time we keep finding new aspects of the show, it so sad to know that lot of people watch it and think it has no depth.

  • anomalycommenter

    @ C Hill: Indeed, and no problem, was a pretty funny scene! 🙂

    @ Phoenixx: If you’re somehow referring to my comment too, I have to say that you’re quite right that putting on an act and bluffing are totally different things. Sorry for the confusion. Perhaps you have to tape me to a preferably red chair of the Suzjazz’ seminar room with some silver tape. To stop me from bringing up my nonsense thoughts, as I think I’ve become a spammer here without realizing it! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Sign me up, Suz! 😉 Apart from all the deep philosophical, literary, cultural and psychological discussion, obviously we’d have to watch endless screenings of various episodes. On the big screen! What a chore… 😉

  • phoenixx

    anomalycommenter, I was reffering to your comment as well.
    No need to apologize and honestly I’d be right there with you on a second red chair 😉

    Somehow my comments all stick in moderation at the moment (this one will probably as well) so it’s hard to respond to several comments at the same time. 😦

  • suzjazz

    @anomaly: “Red chair,” that’s good! ha ha! 🙂
    @Rose: Bring on that big screen TV, beer, and popcorn (OK, we didn’t have that in my college seminars, but hey, we’re grownups!)
    @ C Hill: Football trophy? Marksmanship trophy? Yet another reminder that I miss a lot of details every time I watch an episode, no matter how hard I try to pay attention to what’s going on in the background. Seemingly insignificant and innocent details can have great significance.

  • suzjazz

    An interesting quote from a fanfic I’m reading:

    “Lisbon noticed Cho in deep conversation with one of Virgil’s beautiful young relatives. She caught his eye and Cho *guided the woman toward them, his hand on her lower back*.” (my italics)

    Now, where do we see this in “Red John’s Rules?” Answer: it is Jane with his hand on Lisbon’s lower back as he guides her into his attic.
    Just for fun, I searched online for the meaning of this gesture. And found…

    [In answer to the question: How do you know if he likes you?]
    “He places his hand on the small of her back when walking anywhere. When a man is being a gentleman, he might put his hand on a woman’s back to help guide her through a crowd, but it’s where that hand lands on her back that tells the tale. If he places his hand on her shoulder or upper back, she’s a friend. If his hand lands and stays on the small (lower portion) of her back, he’s making the claim “she’s mine!” The lower back is a very intimate area of a woman’s body, so by laying his hand upon it, he’s being loud and clear about his intentions.” [from the San Antonio Examiner]

    This is what I thought when I watched that scene–it was one of the few unmistakable Jisbon moments in the entire last episode of S5. 🙂

  • III Frogs

    That particular scene in the attic, suzjazz, also got my attention. It was so intimate, like nothing we’d ever seen before. While Jane often holds out a guiding hand to Lisbon, he never touches her that way in my memory. If it did take place, it must have been very short or I think I would have noticed.

    This particular interaction was notable for the placement of Jane’s hand, the amount of time he spent with his hand on her and the fact that Lisbon accepted this touch and fell in next to him easily. It was a very comfortable interaction. And they were only crossing the attic. No obstacles. About 12 feet maybe.

    I’ve watched the scene so many times, practically frame by frame. He starts with his hand on her lower back, I say her hip because his fingers are slightly wrapped to the side of her hip. He quickly moves it to her waist, then almost immediately moves it up and rests it below her shoulder blade with his fingers again slightly wrapping around her side at about breast height.

    I’m not sure what it all means, but to me it was very intimate for those two no matter what. 🙂

  • phoenixx

    Thanks for that suzjazz 😀 (I see you a reader of Donna’s fics as well 😉

    Jane actually does this quite often although most of the time he hovers his hand over said part without actually touching. I think that is quite interesting as well, another indication of “I’d love to but I can’t – yet”.

  • III Frogs

    Wow. My entire comment to suzjazz just disappeared. It didn’t even go into moderation as far as I can tell. So I will only echo phoenix and add a couple things. I also read Dannamour’s fics :).

    The scene it the attic was remarkable for the facts that Jane actually touched Lisbon in his little guiding gesture, it was a big gesture and Lisbon completely accepted the intimacy and walked easily with him to accommodate it. Across a very familiar space. About 12 feet or so. With no obstacles in the way. And the laptop was clearly visible as the destination. Any type of guidance was completely unnecessary.

    I’ve watched it practically frame by frame. Jane starts by laying his hand on her lower back. I really call it her hip because the fingers are wrapped a little around the side on her hip bone. He moves quickly up past her waist and then settles his hand below the shoulder blade, again with his fingers slightly wrapped to her side at about breast level.

    I’m not sure what it means, only that it was a very intimate and unusual gesture for this pair :).

    I hope I passed the audition and this post will post.

  • III Frogs

    it disappeared again. is that moderation now?

  • III Frogs

    There wasn’t even a moderation message. So, look for a couple of my posts to say basically the same thing to phoenixx and suzjazz.

  • Rose UK

    Don’t worry, Frogs, the missing moderation message started happening to me on the last review – hence about a zillion repeated posts in my panic. 😉 Not sure why, but I’ve learned my lesson now (ish). 😉

    Suz & Phoenixx: And there’s me thinking he was just being a gentleman. He does tend to hold doors open for people, for example, even Cho and Rigsby!

    C Hill & Anomaly: Going to keep my eyes peeled for more football-related items now. Your conspiracy-o-meters would probably have gone into meltdown had Lisbon’s sleepwear been a football shirt and not a basketball (or baseball?) one. (Sorry: not good at American sports styles). 😉

  • C Hill

    plenty of american football in 01×12, rose.

    and Lisbon is wearing a Chicago Bears shirt when Jane knocks on her hotel room door in 03×09 (32:00) 🙂 though i think there is just a meme of cycling Lisbon through sports apparel as bed wear. though 03×09 is a RJ epi..

    though i think there is some significance to football, i’m not sure how much. I liked that someone tried to tie the football references all together as a possible S06 arc (don’t recall exactly where).

  • anomalycommenter

    Rose UK & C Hill: Wow, my conspiracy-o-meter is more like a steam engine now! Chicago Bears football team t-shirt?! In an episode where we have Todd Johnson who we’re shortly going to find that together with Manuel Montero were co-captains of their school football team in *Vineland*, CA? Before this I always thought it was basketball Lisbon was interested in. Red Herring or Clue, I’m sure it’s intentional, and we have no way to tell which is which. This is not fair! They included suspicious points about every team member in the show: Rigsby was an arson investigator (RJ’s love of fire), his father was shot in ‘Carson Springs’, a town torn apart between drug gangs and a town where that Child Protective Services Jane spent some time in his childhood is located, apparently near Stoney Ridge where carnie people spend part of the year; Cho was a gang member himself before, has military experience apparently as part of some special force in army (remember Lorelei and her special skills) and has some links to some narcotics division in SF, and “avoids drinking alcohol” according to Mentalist Wikia; Van Pelt’s father is/was a football coach known to O’laughlin, and Lisbon’s father was a fireman, her mother a nurse (the most prominent nurse in the show we saw was that “angel of death” for alcoholics in ‘Jolly Red Elf’), her brother a bounty *hunter*, and now this! So we have bears too! But please don’t let me get started on the diversity of the wild life we see in the show! ‘Hell is this show of Heller’s’! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Oh, wait, sorry, I’m confused! The shirt thing she was wearing in 3×09 (yes, that’s the scene I was thinking of) was actually an American football top? Oops. I didn’t realise! (I didn’t know who Chicago Bears were; even when C Hill mentioned it I still thought it was basketball, lol).

    Ok. Well. Can you imagine if she’d supported some sort of Tiger-based club?! (If there are any, obvs).

    Good points about vague suspicion being cast on each of the team members in different ways, Anomaly. Keeps things interesting! Although I would weep bitter, bitter tears if it turned out one of them was a) RJ or b) a minion. Shudder.

  • C Hill

    well that did get you rolling anomaly! 🙂

    Rose, the shirts i recall for Lisbon so far are the Chicago Bears shirt (not a game jersey, just an oversized t-shirt of some kind i think. (love Jane trying to look back through the keyhole after she shuts the window — nice touch, maybe an ad-lib?) and the generic 99 hockey jersey. While the hockey jersey says “Lisbon”, it is a nod to Wayne Gretzky and the colors look more like an Edmonton Oilers motif.

    I suspect these are more nods to Tunney’s own sports favorites than clever symbolism, but one really can’t trust Heller and coincidences, eh?

  • anomalycommenter

    @Rose UK: Don’t worry! Most of it is probably just misdirection, but there must still be some real clues hidden in the sea of red herrings! And let’s just leave that wildlife theme for another time. 🙂

    @C Hill: Yes, it did! Oh, and that scene was quite funny too! 🙂 Absolutely, with Heller one really never knows what to think! Also there is one other instance I remember seeing a hockey game, in 3×14, ’Blood for Blood’, the victim, which Lisbon later likens to her father, turned on the TV to watch the game, and in the presence of Van Pelt.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Truly interesting discussion, guys, and fascinating spoiler! I need some time to look more closely into that existenialism possible parallel (it’s been a while…), but there might something here. Thought it’s rather hard to tell, because we don’t know how immportant that quote actually is in the storyline, it’s an interesting idea! 🙂

    Suzjazz wrote: “What I have an issue with is that he said in season 1 that bad things happen to people who get close to him, yet he asked Kristina out on a date with devastating results. He slept with Lorelei knowing who she was because he was desperate to get RJ, but he didn’t care what happened to her, even though he admits to Lisbon that he had feelings for her. So he is very inconsistent. You can argue that he doesn’t *love* Lorelei and Kristina, and therefore he didn’t feel obliged to protect them, but I think it’s more that Jane doesn’t know his own mind more often than not–indeed, his mind is almost a separate entity from his soul.”

    I don’t think Jane is that dark, truth be told: if I’m not mistaken, he only started saying that people close to him were in danger *after* Kristina was taken (the line was at the end of the first episode of the third season, I believe). And Jane tried to protect her after her little stunt on TV: the only problem was that Kristina herself didn’t really believe she was in danger… Same with Lorelei, to some extent: he tried to convince her to work with him, and part of his reasons for it might have been to save her as well (she wasn’t a totally bad person unlike some other minions, proof is that she did hesitate to shoot at Lennon because there were children running around when she tried to get him). But, like Kristina, Lorelei has paid for her own choices of attacking RJ by herself. It’s true nonetheless that he was cold when he saw her body, as he was to some extent when he calmly extinguished the candle and let Kristina trapped in her own world, but was it because deep down he really didn’t care, or because he was angry (at them for not listening to him and at himself for failing again to protect someone, like he did with his family)? After all, Jane has been known for masking his deepest emotions with a façade of coldness and indifference, and both instances were left ambiguous enough for that interpretation to stand, imho…

    Rose wrote: “Just very quickly, as I’m a little pressed for time, I think that the ‘huis clos’ image is also extremely interesting, given previous discussion on the recurring motif of doors – both opened and closed – in the series… Violet? Was this one of yours?! I seem to remember some posters talking about doors, keys and locks! It’s a great connection, regardless. Clever writers. Have I mentioned that I love this show?!”

    Yes, you’re right, the theme of locks/ keys/ doors has been mentioned some time ago… I too think like you, Suz and KM (really interesting comments from the three of you, by the way! 🙂 ) that it may relate to Jane’s situation -although the line might be a passing moment in the storyline of the episode, like with the minor references to Star Wars for instance so we might tend to focus too much on it… Still, it might indicate that Jane feels more than ever trapped in the situation he has created himself (hence the “huis clos”), in a very close confrontation with his nemesis… “Hell is other people” (“L’enfer, c’est les autres”) is pretty accurate in a crime procedural, by the way, where people keep hating others, resenting and killing them… I wonder still if Jane’s private hell is directly due to the presence of RJ in his life (his own personal demon, representing the other, darker half of his soul), or if it’s worsened because the deaths of more former acquaintances are needling him into suffering even more: the “others” who form hell in his situation might indeed be his tormentor and his minions (anger/hate/resentfulness), or the people whose death he’s responsible for (guilt)… Not to mention that keeping up with him is a living hell for many people around him, lol…
    (And by the way I too would like to see more “non-traditional cross-team interactions”… especially Rigsby, Cho and Jane have the promised night out together. That would be fun! 🙂 )

    “Perhaps people can expand here?? Violet, were you going to go into this in Themes?”

    Light/dark, vision and blindness is one of the theme I’m still working on… Patience, my dears, it’s coming! I’m knee-deep in organizing/redacting that upcoming post… 🙂

    KM wrote: “And, when offered a chance for redemption, the opening of the closed door (huis clos), they choose to remain inside.”

    Just to clarify: in French, “huis clos” means indeed “closed door”, but the expression is hardly used outside of justice courts: “ un procès à huis clos” is a trial where no one from outside the court (mainly journalists), can attend to, at least if I’m not mistaken (it’s really not my speciality)… Just thought the detail would add an interesting prespective to the thing as that means that’s that old Final Judgement vibe to it… 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Anomaly: Thanks a lot for those references! I’m adding them to my list! 🙂

    @ C Hill: your suggestion that Jane might sleep on the nude made me laugh out loud! It didn’t even cross my mind, lol! It’s really hilarious!
    Still, I agree full heartily with Carla: that vest of his just scream stylish, he doesn’t need anything else than his classy three-piece suits! 🙂

    @ Windsparrow wrote: “That is very much a product of Baker’s care in crafting his character, that such a small change to his appearance is so very meaningful”.

    Yes, it is! You just expressed what I thought! And I admit I had a bit of trouble concentrating on his first talk with Lorelei at the very beginning of ‘The Crimson Hat’ because I couldn’t get past the idea that he wasn’t wearing his vest… There was a little voice in my head mumbling non-stop “the vest… the vest…”, while the woman in red was talking about honesty and faith, lol…

    “Jane had a lick of sense, he would take Lisbon and run to keep her safe. Iif I were in charge, I’d have Jane swing by Monte Carlo to clean out a few cassinos to fund their escape, then they could drift all over the Mediterranean, lounging about on beaches as they pleased.”

    Truth be told, I though that was what they were planning to do at the end of the previous season, when all those spoilers were drifting around: when they said he was going to shoot someone at the CBI, I wondered if they were not going for an “on the lam” scenario, preferably with Lisbon… Still, even if the writers decided to follow your truly wonderful idea, I can’t imagine Jane going on a trip through the Mediterranean (not that it wouldn’t suit his sophisticated vibe, Monte Carlo would fit him just fine!), but, given his insistence to make people escape to Mexico (Danny, Culpepper…), I hope Lisbon wouldn’t get her hopes up. She’d better pack some non-descript clothes with her sexy bikinis, because I’d say her chances of landing on a shady motel room in Tijuana are almost equals to her getting a suite in a palace on the Riviera, lol… Poor woman… Now, I’d really like to get you in charge of Jane’s trips, Windsparrow, you put some very sunny and titillating pictures in our minds! (And maybe they might even meet Erica on one of those escapades and Lisbon could at least punch her in the face…err, I mean, arrest her at long last…) 😉

    @ Phoenixx: I fully agree with you, the more I think about it, the more it appears that Haffner would make a good candidate for RJ. Very good arguments! 🙂

    (I had a lot more to say in reply to all those wonderful comments, but I’m in a hurry! Sorry for the mistakes! :P)

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Sorry, I realize upon seeing what I wrote that I went a little too fast with my ealier comment about the meaning of “huis clos”, KM: it also means a reunion between very few people, who usually don’t get along or are outright antagonists, often forced together by circumstances (the door is closed, meaning that they are trapped together in a closed space) and filled with a dramatic tension (like those trials which are often about highly sensitive cases). Of course, that meaning also fits to the play atmosphere, and I wonder if that would be the scenario which will play out in the end, between RJ and Jane: will they be trapped together and be forced to face each other in a deadly confrontation?

  • Carla Oliveira

    “Now, I’d really like to get you in charge of Jane’s trips, Windsparrow, you put some very sunny and titillating pictures in our minds! (And maybe they might even meet Erica on one of those escapades and Lisbon could at least punch her in the face…err, I mean, arrest her at long last”. Uau, Violet! You simple did read my mind. Since Windsparrow brought up this Monte Carlo thing, I put my mind running: Erica would be there to receive the worst, of course and a good punch by Lisbon properly dressed up and owing nothing to Erica in this matter would be perfect. I laughed a lot.

  • Rose UK

    I really like that idea, Violet. In fact, I think I like it better than the idea of Lisbon being the one to finish off RJ. If Lisbon took charge of Jane’s problem, all the weight of responsibility would be transferred to her and Jane would never get any real closure. In line with the discussion on existentialism and self-determination, I think Jane *literally* needs to face his demon in order to be freed from him. He needs to make a decision (preferably the ‘right’ one) and take the responsibility for it (which, assuming he turned away from the revenge route, would actually lift the burden from him). And not only that, but there is a real poetic justice and symbolic beauty in having these two nemeses fight it out together alone. For one thing, Jane would finally be able to see if he really is the smartest mind, and secondly it would be a very satisfying pay-off in terms of all the ideas and themes to do with duality, mirroring, symmetry, being two sides of the same coin, confronting yourself and your ‘dark side’, etc. Some battles you just gotta face on your own, after all. 😉

    I’m not expressing myself very well, but I hope you see what I mean.

    On an entirely different note, if anyone’s interested I saw a rather amusing video on YouTube – a ‘spoof song crack vid’, I think it was called. It did make me chuckle. 😀

  • KM

    Thank you, Rose and Violet.

    And, thank you for the expanded understanding of usage of ‘huis clos’, Violet. I too am not sure how important any reference from the play will be within the TM narrative. And, as far as the play goes I found the door bursting open to be a hopeful sign (even though Inez refused to leave, and Garcin would not go without Inez) that the doors ability to open remains should the characters ever choose it. Perhaps that hopefully element will also be present in the TM narrative, and Jane will discover that he has more than just one option when faced with RJ despite believing for so very long that only one outcome was truly possible?

  • suzjazz

    Carla: I love the image of Lisbon punching Erica in the face! 😀

  • Carla Oliveira

    Yes, Suzjazz, we deserve this bonus. That’s the big revenge. Hahahaha!

  • suzjazz

    “I don’t think Jane is that dark, truth be told: if I’m not mistaken, he only started saying that people close to him were in danger *after* Kristina was taken (the line was at the end of the first episode of the third season, I believe). And Jane tried to protect her after her little stunt on TV: the only problem was that Kristina herself didn’t really believe she was in danger… Same with Lorelei, to some extent: he tried to convince her to work with him, and part of his reasons for it might have been to save her as well (she wasn’t a totally bad person unlike some other minions, proof is that she did hesitate to shoot at Lennon because there were children running around when she tried to get him).”

    I was wrong about the timing of that quote about people close to Jane being in danger; however, he must have been aware from the outset that it was risky to get too close to anyone because they were a potential target.

    I don’t see any evidence that Jane was trying to “save” Lorelei, (Do you have specific quotes or occurrences that lead you to believe this?) To the contrary, his attitude towards her was one of extreme cynicism and contempt. She was a means to an end for him. On the other hand, as I said: Jane is very inconsistent and often does not know his own mind. So when he helped her escape from prison, and she revealed her human side to him, he was able to feel sympathy for her in their common desire to destroy Red John. The same vestiges of humanity that prevented her from shooting where children might be injured came to the surface in TWBB. But Lorelei has been irreparably damaged by RJ. If she was not originally either psychotic or sociopathic, she is by the time we meet her, and she still is when she dies. She is a piece of work. Jane must have known that he couldn’t save her: the most he could do was to give her the car and tell her to run before the cops got to the cabin.

    “Huis clos” is often translated as “No Exit,” which I think is a perfect term to describe the situation Jane and Lisbon are in at the end of the S5 finale. There is no escape, no exit from Red John now. He is more dangerous than ever, on the warpath, and there will be no ignoring him. They will inevitably feel his wrath. I could only imagine what was going through their minds after seeing the video.

    Jane: How can I ever protect her? I’d have to be with her 24/7 and she’d never let me. And I can’t warn the people from my past who he’s planning to kill because I don’t know who they are!
    Lisbon: I’ve never been scared of any killer before in my entire career, but I’m scared now. How are we going to protect the victims of his planned murders? And I hate to admit it, but I am terrified to be alone in my own apartment. What if he comes after me? He knows I love Jane.

    And so on…

  • suzjazz

    Argh! My reply to bloomingviolet is in the No Man’s land of moderation, and I forgot to save it to a document! 😦 Oh well…maybe I’ll think of it again if it never appears. A couple of my posts have been completely lost!

  • phoenixx

    Agree with Violet about Jane and the problem of him thinking bad things happen to people he gets close too.
    He was sort of bullied into dating Kristina and it showed us that he actually thought he could try but then had a massive fallback when Kristina was abducted and he was (at least he thinks so) proofed right. Lorelei doesn’t really count imho, she was after all RJ’s girl, he sent her to Jane and even if Jane tried to manipulate her, she tried the same the other way round.

    Anyone already read the new “interview” of Heller for the first episode? Since this isn’t really a spoiler I post this line here, I think it could become an interesting discussion:

    “By the end of the premiere episode, there may be one less suspect in the hunt for Red John”.

    Well that would be fast!

    And here’s another thing Heller said about the episode but I’m gonna post it as a spoiler, so if you don’t want to know anything skip the the rest of my post!

    “Jane and Lisbon are hot on the trail of Red John in the season premiere, but a disagreement on how to handle the situation may leave one of them in danger before the episode is over.”

    Geez, seems like they start with something a lot of us wanted to happen in the last season. 😀 I hope it’s Lisbon, it’s time for Jane to worry

  • phoenixx

    Shocking news: Amanda’s husband just congratulated her via Twitter on her FINAL season!

    I really hope that means she’ll leave the show and it doesn’t mean it really is the last season period. The only hope I have is he wrote HER and not THE. 😦

  • rita

    I bet that won;t go down very well with the powers that be…I am sure that they won’t want things like that getting out…. not in that way anyway…I hope it isn’t true.

  • phoenixx

    Maybe his twitter got hacked? LOL

    What’s weird is, usually you say that when someone has his show wrapped, it makes it sound as if she left already.
    On the other hand she’s a new mum maybe she wants to spend more time with her son.

    Anyway looks like the Rigspelt problem about who of them is gonna leave the team is solved if this is true.

  • C Hill

    you might want to be a little more careful with the spoilery stuff, phoenixx. JMHO.

  • Rose UK

    Um, yes, in the nicest and most respectful way possible way I agree with C Hill re: spoilers. I read the second spoiler without realising and have tried not to read the first! Just my preference, although I know that a) it’s very hard to avoid them when you’re a super-fan! and b) lots of people don’t mind knowing these things. Indeed, I’m actually fine with the more subtle or unrevealing varieties (as evidenced above). 😉

    Perhaps another separate ‘spoiler page’ from RB might be a good compromise? Then everyone is happy. 🙂

  • phoenixx

    Understand where you coming from and will do but that’s why I usually mention upfront it will involve a spoiler, so people who don’t want to read it can skip it. I even put spaces in but they get erased.
    And the two other things I seriously don’t consider as spoilers, we all know that the list will come down eventually and about Amanda that’s a speculation at the moment, imo. 😉
    Also everything BH says is mostly up for discussion, after all he doesn’t want to spoil his own show. LOL

    But sorry to everyone who accidently reads it anyway.

    A spoiler section would be great, especially during the hiatus and the long breaks. 🙂

  • phoenixx

    Urgh, I replied to you guys but the comment got stuck apparently, hope it won’t take too long. It’ll be funny it this one will be stuck too.

    Anyway I’m trying again and therefore will repeat myself essentially. LOL

    Sorry to the readers who accidently read it but don’t want to know any spoilers. Though usually that’s why I warn upfront and also I think BH’s comments are always worth to discuss. (Usually he doesn’t reveal anything to drastic)
    I try to put in spaces as well but they get erased afterwards, so that’s a bit problematic.

    A seperate spoiler page would be great indeed, especially for the long hiatus and long breaks inbetween.

    So my apologies again 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    I do love a good spoiler! Believe me: I’m dying for one.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Please if you don’t like spoilers don’t read it:

    Read what Heller said after season finale:
    “ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: And can you talk about the decision for Wayne and Grace to get back together?
    Heller: They’ve always been in love with each other. As we get closer to Red John, all of the team members will start thinking about their major life decisions. That applies to both applies to Lisbon and Grace. They haven’t been able to look to their own feelings. As the show rolls on, those feelings will come to the fore.”
    Maybe it means Van Pelt will leave the team because of her relationship with Wayne.

  • phoenixx

    To clear up the Amanda tweet,someone who has a bit to do with the business tweeted that her husband tweeted something similiar during the second season already, that she would soon be off to show her true talent (he did that here too). Apparently he’s no fan of TM and never was.

    Since I’m a nice person (to say it in Lisbon’s words) I’m not gonna say what I think he his.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Although I’m not a so good person like you, Phoenix, I’m still a lady; so I won’t say what I did want say to this guy.

  • Rose UK

    I completely understand, Phoenixx & Carla. 🙂 You do indeed give fair warning, and those of us who are a bit averse to spoilers must also bear in mind that other people like them. Fair’s fair, after all! It’s just that once discussion commences, it’s quite hard to ignore the initial spoiler as you end up unwittingly reading everybody’s thoughts on the matter (unless everyone prefaces their post with some sort of “SPOILER DISCUSSION” message, I’m not sure how to avoid it…) It’s either that or stop reading/participating in the blog for fear of reading something you don’t want to know, which would make me very sad. 😉

    I don’t want to be a nuisance and spoil everyone’s fun, I promise! Like I said, I don’t mind the ‘non-spoiler spoilers’ as I enjoy the discussion as much as the next person and I agree that often they provide a good springboard into an entertaining debate. 🙂

  • C Hill

    Interesting, phoenixx…thx for the clarification…

  • windsparrow

    I prefer to avoid spoilers, and the layout of this discussion makes it difficult to protect myself from them. So I am opting out of the conversation.

    See you in September!

    Bon voyage!

    (yes I do say that in a Bugs Bunny voice)

  • suzjazz

    re spoilers: I don’t mind them if they don’t give too much away.
    I only hope Grace isn’t one of the people RJ murders. I can see her leaving the team so that she can be with Wayne and not break any rules.

  • suzjazz

    My response to Violet’s response to my comment never saw the light of day–probably because I sent it to her because there is still no reply button except to the writer of the post via email.

    bloomingviolet said:
    “I don’t think Jane is that dark, truth be told: if I’m not mistaken, he only started saying that people close to him were in danger *after* Kristina was taken (the line was at the end of the first episode of the third season, I believe). And Jane tried to protect her after her little stunt on TV: the only problem was that Kristina herself didn’t really believe she was in danger… Same with Lorelei, to some extent: he tried to convince her to work with him, and part of his reasons for it might have been to save her as well (she wasn’t a totally bad person unlike some other minions, proof is that she did hesitate to shoot at Lennon because there were children running around when she tried to get him).”

    I was wrong about the timing of the Jane quote, but he must have known from the outset that he was endangering anyone who got too close to him–RJ killed the two people closest and dearest to him as a response to a mere insult, and it would be naive to think that he’d stop there.

    I never had the sense that Jane was trying to “save” Lorelei. To the contrary, his attitude towards her was one of extreme cynicism and contempt until he helped her escape from prison. She was a means to an end. When they escaped together, she showed some of the remaining vestiges of her humanity and although she did not hesitate to beat and kick him in a fury, Jane was nonetheless able to sympathize with her because of their common desire to destroy Red John. This same lingering humanity in Lorelei was what stopped her from firing where children might be hurt. But the sad reality is that Lorelei has been irreparably damaged by RJ; if she was not already psychotic or sociopathic before she met him, she is when we meet her, and she is still that way when she dies. Jane must have seen that there was no saving Lorelei.

    But Jane does not always know his own mind.
    Re his words to Lisbon about Lorelei: “There were some feelings.”
    This is only one example of Jane’s emotional and psychological confusion that cause him to be drawn to dangerous, homicidal women in spite of his aversion.

    re “Huis Clos”:
    “Huis Clos” is often translated as “No Exit,” which perfectly describes the terrible trap Jane and Lisbon are in after seeing the video. They can’t tell anyone on the team about it (at least not yet) thereby losing their backup; the head of the CBI could be RJ, or Kirkland. I can only imagine what was going through their minds. Maybe something like this? (fyi: I have begun a fanfic that begins at his juncture–we’ll see if I have the guts to post it on the fanfic site.) 🙂

    Jane: How can I protect her? I’d have to be with her 24/7 and she’d never allow that. And how can I protect the future victims of Red John’s wrath? I don’t even know who they are and I have no way of finding out! Is it too dangerous to tell Cho, Rigsby, and Van Pelt? We can’t hunt RJ alone. I need a plan! How did this happen? I have dragged my “family” [Cho, Rigsby and Van Pelt] into this deadly vortex from which there is no escape. I have also endangered the woman I love, the only woman I have a chance of happiness with when this is all over, if it’s ever over. We might both end up dead. I have to tell her I love her now. She doesn’t know. She doubts me, she’s never trusted me, and for good reason. How can I make her believe that I love her more than anything or anyone in the world?

    Lisbon: I’ve never been afraid of any killer in my entire career, but now I am afraid. I don’t like to admit it, but I’m even scared to be alone in my own apartment, even with all my guns. Red John knows I love Jane. What if he comes after me? And what about the people from Jane’s past that he’s planning to murder? We can’t possibly discover who they are and warn them. What are we going to do? I want to tell the team about this but it might put them in too much danger. What if Bertram is Red John? How am I going to act normal? Use my good poker face? This isn’t poker we’re playing, it’s a high-stakes deadly game. And Jane…this is devastating to him. Does he love me? I still can’t tell. Will he try to protect me and should I let him? I’m an officer of the law, it’s my job to be in harm’s way, I don’t need protection…but Red John is powerful. He isn’t an ordinary serial killer.
    And so on…

  • III Frogs

    Ay! @suzjazz I would read that fan fic in a heartbeat! I love your description of Jane’s process. Whew! Be sure to let us know when you post it!

  • suzjazz

    An aside: Who are Josie Davis and Lauren Stamile? I heard they were going to be on the first episode, and I know they have been on various TV shows which I never watched. Anyone familiar with their work? of course, it’s possible that they are minor characters who will only appear on that one episode, but the spoiler people were going on and on about both of them so I began to worry that either
    a) they had some connection to Jane in the past and RJ will kill them,
    or
    b) one of them will sleep with Jane. That’s all Lisbon needs right now.

  • suzjazz

    Thanks Frogs! 🙂 I certainly will. At this point, I have to re-read what I wrote last night to make sure it isn’t utter drivel. I hate reading or writing sex scenes, even just love scenes, so any Jisbon will be quite restrained. I am opening with a fight between Jane and Lisbon. Have not figured out how to resolve it yet.

  • phoenixx

    @suzjazz: First of all who are you on fanfic? I’d read that one as well. 😀

    Second: Maybe he knew that he would be a danger to other people but no matter how much he believes it, nobody wants to be alone and the small part of him who wanted human contact went with it. Sadly he then was sort of proofed right by RJ in his thinking.

    Speaking of Lorelei, one thing I’d like the writers to explain is WHY Lorelei. I mean why did RJ chose her. He went to great lengths to make her one of his minions and probably even more than that, more something like Rosalind was maybe? The only “proof” we have she was closer to RJ is that Lisbon referred to her as ‘his mistress’ and I think the writers wanted to tell us this through her. And of course the fact RJ treated her differently to his other minions once they got arrested told us she is special.
    But I really want to know why the heck that is.

    Miranda was killed five years ago around the time when Grace joined them. Did RJ look for someone who had a resemblance to Lisbon in the first place, coincidence? O_o

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think Lorelei lingered live because RJ wanted play a sort of game and maybe her resemblance to Lisbon was part of the game. I only can’t realize what it was the game. RJ wanted cloud Jane’s mind or undermine his relationship with Lisbon, but we don’t know how far RJ know about their feelings for each other, he must think that she is the one who make him stronger and even happy.
    But is really odd the big antecedence he picked up Lorelei. Someone has some idea?
    This hiatus is drive me crazy!

  • Rose UK

    What I find interesting is that Jane seems to reveal his true self/thoughts to these femme fatales quite a bit. I can’t really figure out why. For example, in Red Sails, Lorelei tells him: “Just stop playing the role!” and he does. He admits: “Yes, I play a role, but not with you”. It’s similar with Erica Flynn – in Every Rose Has its Thorn she asks him “What do you want from your life?” and he answers “To be free from my past”. And then he proceeds to tell all in the matchmaking video. With Kristina Frye he is worried enough to be visibly angry with her – something we rarely see in him. He is weirdly honest with them. Maybe it’s because people tend to take on an opposing characteristic when faced with the same trait in others; they are using his own tactics against him, so he is pushed into a corner and has to fight them using a different technique – honesty (err, what?! I don’t even know what I’m saying). Regardless, we rarely see this kind of blunt confessional style between him and Lisbon – maybe, like, once a season or something, and usually under duress. Be nice to see a bit more of it, really. 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    Rose UK wrote: “We rarely see this kind of blunt confessional style between him and Lisbon – maybe, like, once a season or something, and usually under duress.”
    Why it happens this way? And why they keep working together? Why Lisbon doesn’t kick him in the ass? I’m really tired of this. He should have gone with Lorelei and not trying to save Lennon. He had done this before: missing without a word. She was going to meet RJ. It would be finish soon. Maybe the two of them die or kill RJ and we all and Lisbon would be free this ass blonde. I’m getting impatient with this blonde mess.

  • Rose UK

    Haha, Carla! Oh, for sure. But let’s be fair: he’s a very pretty blond mess. 😉 (Although, rather unbelievably, it took me 4 seasons to notice this fact.)

  • Carla Oliveira

    Being pretty is too little. I’m done of this mess with those minxes. I need a break. And Lorelei was the less unbearable IMHO.
    He needs a good kick in the ass. I don’t like seeing him being punching in the nose; I get with some pity, I confess; a good kick in the ass, this is it. Hahahaha!

  • Rose UK

    Yes, I have to admit: I quite liked Lorelei as a character. She had fire and she was smart (I’m ignoring all the alarming violent tendencies, by the way!), and she was quite unlike any of the other minions in that she seemed to have a mind of her own and appeared less malleable. Ok, she was manipulated into minion-ship, but she also went rogue… What did RJ give her in return for her loyalty, do we know? Everyone else always got a ‘gift’… Peace from the trauma of her sister’s death? I feel like her story ended too soon, definitely. Would be interesting to see if they pick this thread up again in season 6. (Incidentally: although I don’t really count Rosalind as a minion, she’s another one who stands out in the circle of RJ associates for being ostensibly sweet and innocent.)

    Anomaly, I’m counting on you and your talent for conspiracies and connections to make something of Carla & Phoenixx’s ideas!

  • C Hill

    There might be more to the story, but, as I recall Lorelei was easily the most attractive of RJ’s minions. I don’t think that can be discounted, though I do think there was more to it than that — she had the ability to do so much more for RJ.

    As far as Jane opening up to other, er, “interests” more than Lisbon is part of a whole risk/reward scenario. Opening up to someone who is a potential serious romantic option is very different than someone you don’t see in that way. Plus, some of those women had put Jane in a position to be forced to address those types of issues — Lisbon has not done that so far. The closest we’ve gotten to any of that has come from Jane’s side in Devil’s Cherry and Fugue in Red.

  • anomalycommenter

    @Rose UK: Well, I was going to keep away from commenting here until I have something remotely meaningful to say, hoping to save my nose by talking very carefully after seeing the reactions to Amanda Righetti’s husband’s opinion of ‘the mentalist’, though he quite probably very much deserved such reactions! 🙂 Not at all eligible to comment on the delicate discussion you ladies are having, and really have nothing to add to your excellent discussion, but after your kind and undeserved compliments Rose, I have to say:

    Maybe I’m stupid, but till now I was not aware of any resemblance, physical or behavioral, between Lisbon and Lorelei. But now that you suggest it, something that is common to both is their quite high intelligence, in Lisbon’s case it’s quite there but is somewhat hidden, and their apparent capacity for very deep and genuine affection, these really can be highly attractive characteristics. (if you factor in the ability to perfectly fake such an affection you can also count in Erica Flynn, well, maybe also Lorelei, and if I may keep my nose, for a totally insane, conspiracy infested mind, even Lisbon!) 🙂

    As to what it is that makes Jane react differently towards them, I have to say that I’m not smart enough to be able to read Jane’s (in fact Heller’s) mind. But your interpretation is perfect, Rose. It is also apparent that Lisbon has a unique place in his heart, he killed an RJ accomplice when he became a threat to her life without a second thought, he is truly in love with her, at least as far as I can tell, unlike Lorelei, and that’s why, imho Carla, that he remained with Lennon, trying to save him instead of going with Lorelei and trying to save her when he clearly knew that she had it coming.

    Some comments above Reader22 asked how many of the 7 suspects are married, well, checking wedding rings are not something that I usually do, but what Phoenixx mentioned about Lisbon calling Lorelei RJ’s mistress as opposed to his companion may have bearing here. As I do not have sufficient knowledge of the English language, let me ask you that could this suggest that RJ is a married man?

    Your idea of RB adding a separate section for spoilers is really great Rose, and now the only little problem that remains is to find RB to ask her! 🙂 Also I’m very much looking forward to read Suzjazz’ fanfic, but I was not able to find it.

  • Rose UK

    😉 Merci, Anomaly. I was also thinking more along the lines of your theory about Lorelei’s mother/the family photo & the costume/a potential carny link. Maybe that’s why RJ ‘chose’ her… A fringe theory, maybe, but intriguing nonetheless!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thank you Anomalycommenter. I think you are right about Lorelei and Lisbon, but Jane have to behave himself. I am also missing RB.
    Hopefully she is back soon.

  • Tringo

    So glad I decided to stop by here even if the show is on ‘summerbreak’! 7 deadly sins…actually that sounds really god. 7 letters in Red John…. and why do 6 of the suspects work in law enforcement? (or am I wrong?) maybe Bret Stiles also is an old police and Red John a network or a hidden mistake within the law enforcement. So many questions and so many good theories here. I just hope that there is a intriguing answer in the show and not some easy made up Red John that’s been of screen. Thanks for the great sumup!

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, I’d completely forgotten about that possible connection Rose, and am really intrigued that anybody can find it interesting at all! 🙂 It can also highlight Kirkland’s possible connection. Yet I’m totally confused about this show with its numerous red herrings that are tosses around everywhere and as Tringo said above hope that RJ’s identity doesn’t turn out to be a disappointment. Absolutely Carla, Jane must behave better towards Lisbon and show that he realizes the true value of her affection. Oh and I, too, miss RB and her wonderful posts.

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx
    I haven’t yet created an avatar/profile/persona on FanFiction.net. I’m a little intimidated by the process, but my BF will help me set up an account. My story is coming along–I stayed up all night to write the first chapter because I was on a roll, but I have not yet figured out a) who Red John will be when unmasked b) how they are going to get him c) the aftermath. So it won’t be for a while unless I publish what I have so far. BF said he liked it! 🙂

  • Reader22

    I’m not even sure why I notice rings I never had before. Its a theory I was trying to rule out. Then I got wrapped up in a serial killer spiral.

  • suzjazz

    @RoseUK: I too would love to see some more blunt confessionals from Jane, especially to Lisbon, because except for the time he told her about his hospitalization, he hasn’t told her much about himself in general. (To be fair: Lisbon hasn’t exactly been forthcoming, either. They could both use a dose of candour.)

    @Carla: I love your phrase “this blond mess.” 🙂

    @anomaly:
    “Maybe I’m stupid, but till now I was not aware of any resemblance, physical or behavioral, between Lisbon and Lorelei. But now that you suggest it, something that is common to both is their quite high intelligence, in Lisbon’s case it’s quite there but is somewhat hidden, and their apparent capacity for very deep and genuine affection, these really can be highly attractive characteristics. (if you factor in the ability to perfectly fake such an affection you can also count in Erica Flynn, well, maybe also Lorelei, and if I may keep my nose, for a totally insane, conspiracy infested mind, even Lisbon!)”

    I’m going to go out on a limb and disagree with everyone about Lisbon and Lorelei. I think it’s a stretch to say they are alike. I don’t think they are meant to be. They are Good and Evil personified in women (symbolically–in real life, no one is all good or all evil, and even on The Mentalist L and L have both good and bad traits.) No one else here seems to be buying my theory of Lorelei being psycho before she met Red John, or if she wasn’t, he hypnotized her or did something else to all but erase her humanity. She became a killing machine, even though she did love her sister, part of her fell for Jane, and she retained enough compassion to avoid killing children. She *is* feisty and smart, and she finally breaks free of RJ as her puppetmaster, only to go on a torture/killing spree.

    Lisbon, on the other hand, is her own woman, and far from being psychotic, she is nothing if not sane and aware. She too is feisty and smart, but she is a woman of faith who believes in right and wrong and in playing by the rules. She is drawn to Jane because he is an outlaw, but she is horrified by some of what he does, such as when he buries the guy alive in the cemetery (even though he survives and the intent was to make him confess, not to kill him) She will not tolerate torture as a means of getting a confession.

    Lisbon’s frailties are what keep her from being Saint Teresa. She doesn’t want to let anyone into her private world, and has no friends that we know about outside of work. She is also in denial about a lot of things–she thinks her life is fine just as it is, when she’s actually very lonely and wants to be in a relationship with the right person. She doesn’t think Jane is the right person even though she is in love with him; the central issue has always been, can she trust him? It will be interesting to see how she lets down her guard with Jane–if she does let it down. And she better let it down! We shippers have been waiting a long, long time!!!

  • phoenixx

    @suzjazz: Ok 😉 But please let me know when you do! 😀

    Is Bertram’s ring actually a wedding ring? I never looked at it closely but could it be some football (other sports or university) ring?

    @anomalycommenter: I don’t think RJ needs to be married just because of the “mistress” comment but I take it more of a sign of a sexual relationshio between her and RJ. Just that there’s no actual relationship as opposed to his relationship with Rosalind with whom he could be more ‘honest’.

    About the ‘resemblance’. Well they’re both petite and dark haired, fair enough a lot of women are but if you put Lorelei in the right clothes (like she was for example when she knocked at Jane’s door) she resembled Lisbon quite a lot (also at Orchid Lane with the white blouse). Plus when she met Jane at the bar in Vegas and started talking about Faith, I couldn’t help but think that her looks and the way she talked to him were so much Lisbon that it can’t be a coincidence, I mean after all he could have chosen a blonde, tall woman or someone who looked like his wife to earn his trust subconsciously, apparently RJ tried this with someone who reminded Jane of Lisbon. BTW what did his wife look like anyway, I know we have the veiled form of her at the Piano but in the flashback when he walks through his house there are pictures of his family on the red wall and on that picture his wife is not only shorter than him but looks like she has dark curly hair, so maybe RJ sent him someone like his wife after all.

  • phoenixx

    Never realized Jane is more “honest” with those women but then again like mentioned they sort of like him and aren’t fooled by his act just like he usually isn’t fooled by others. Also people tend to be more honest with strangers whereas we like to pretend we’re strong in front of friends and family. So I’m guessing it’s easier for Jane to drop the act with Lorelei and Co. because they’re not that close to him.

    I was never a fan of Lorelei and they never managed to make me like her because simply: Even if she was broken after her sisters death, she learned who RJ is and what he did that he killed innocent women and even killed a child, especially by making her look quite smart (at least in the beginning, her goging after RJ was just stupid) I just can’t start to have sympathy with her because RJ killed her sister to lure her in. She knew he is a killer and the horrible things he’s done but when she learns he is responsible for her sisters death he becomes the ultimate evil guy and has to be punished but before that he was the one giving her life a meaning again? Well double standard much?!
    Also I don’t thnk she was that intelligent. Smart/clever yes, after all she was special to RJ so he teached her quite a few things but intelligent, I doubt that. Nothing she did showed this, everything she did was either a plan formed by RJ or Jane, she was merely a puppet to both. Even if Jane’s plans went not totally as planned but he also didn’t spend as much time with her.
    The only thing she ever did and planned on her own was going after RJ and we all know how that worked out.

  • C Hill

    well the wordpress gnomes ate my reply from this afternoon. i’m now watching the enchanting 04×15 and finding myself wondering how i’d be talking my way out of a liason with Erica Flynn rather than escaping her siren song 🙂

    an excellent episode. Lisbon’s jealousy is palpable and Morena Baccarin is wonderful as Flynn. I really enjoy seeing how Robin performs against such attractive and talented actresses. So talented.

  • mosquitoinuk

    People!

    Apparently we will know RJ’s identity before *this calendar year* (!)

    http://www.tvfanatic.com/2013/07/the-mentalist-to-reveal-identity-of-red-john-this-year/

    Talk about ramping it up! Thank God for that, I thought BH was going to lead us on till the end of S6. I looks like the fans have been heard for once.

    This opens the door for plenty of interesting angles to be explored. How will PJ deal with the news? how will they chase him? what’s going to happen to Patrick’s story arc? etc.

    I find this incredibly exciting, at long last, we will not be wondering WHO, but HOW will they (Patrick, Lisbon, the team, the CBI, etc.) deal with RJ’s chase and capture (or not).

  • phoenixx

    BH already mentioned in his post Finale interview they would catch RJ during some time IN season 6 (though now I’m wondering if it means they will catch him then as well or wait for that to the finale, which I personally don’t want to happen). So I’m not surprised, the question will be if it means only the viewers will know or Jane as well.

  • mosquitoinuk

    Ahhhh…very interesting Phoenixx. I hope that *everyone* will know (or at least Jane and Lisbon) so that the rest of S6 will be about the hunt! (and they’ll have time to explore the personal issues of each character with respect to RJ’s identity and chase).

    Either way, we won’t have to wait till May next year to know and I find the prospect rather exciting. I’ve had enough of the ‘who is RJ’? I’d like to know how he operates, who else is involved, how the team will deal with it, etc. Much more interesting IMO.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    First of all, I’m not opposed to spoilers, but many people prefer not to read them, as interesting and exciting as they are. So, since enjoying spoilers does not necessarily mean spoiling the fun for others, could you spoilers fans/providers just write a warning at the beginning of your posts, pretty please? Thanks! 🙂

    Rose wrote: “What I find interesting is that Jane seems to reveal his true self/thoughts to these femme fatales quite a bit. I can’t really figure out why. For example, in Red Sails, Lorelei tells him: “Just stop playing the role!” and he does. He admits: “Yes, I play a role, but not with you”. It’s similar with Erica Flynn – in Every Rose Has its Thorn she asks him “What do you want from your life?” and he answers “To be free from my past”. And then he proceeds to tell all in the matchmaking video. With Kristina Frye he is worried enough to be visibly angry with her – something we rarely see in him. He is weirdly honest with them. Maybe it’s because people tend to take on an opposing characteristic when faced with the same trait in others; they are using his own tactics against him, so he is pushed into a corner and has to fight them using a different technique – honesty (err, what?! I don’t even know what I’m saying). Regardless, we rarely see this kind of blunt confessional style between him and Lisbon – maybe, like, once a season or something, and usually under duress. Be nice to see a bit more of it, really. ;)”

    Maybe it is because he doesn’t fear their judgement: those women are like him (even worse in fact). Unlike Lisbon, who is a deeply good person: with those women, he doesn’t need to be ashamed of his conman persona, but with Lisbon, there is that rarely spoken knowledge that she’s a better person than him and that she may one day be fed up with the worst aspects of his personality.

    @ Suzjazz : regarding Jane’s feelings towards Lorelei, I agree with you to some extent, as he was indeed cynically trying to use her and she was damaged beyond repair by her association with RJ. Getting her to realize that she was duped in the worst way also meant implicitly that what RJ taught her didn’t mean anything anymore, hence that all the bad things she probably did to please him were indeed bad things she would need to take responsibility for (I think that explains her hesitation at endangering children by shooting in the open).
    Yet, as we saw, with Jane, using someone doesn’t necessarily that there’s not some kind of affection or at least some sympathy/pity involved. After all, he has been using his position in the team for years, yet he proved more than once that he cared deeply for his colleagues, especially Lisbon. The man is full of contradictions. So, it’s just my interpretation, since things were very ambiguous, but I believe he did identify with her to some extent: she was a lonely soul, whose childhood was ruined by a parent who only saw her children as a mean to make money (Alex Jane living from his son’s psychic show/ Lorelei’s mother literally selling one daughter). Then, the truly deep bond they managed to create when they left their childhood world was snatched away in a traumatic manner, and by the same person: I think that knowing that Lorelei had lost all hope when her sister died –that she told him in the motel room while she was dying her hair and trying her yellow dress- might have reminded him of the state of despair he was in after the murder of his family (telling her “believe me, some things can still hurt you”, or something along those lines). Hence my assumption that he might have wanted to save her by guiding her to the truth. With the added bonus that counted on her to guide her to her master in the process, of course…
    Plus, Lisbon was right: she was the first woman he slept with after his wife. That had to leave something a bit ambivalent in his mind, even more since she kept reminding him of what they shared (a thank you kiss, “lover”). *This* Jane is not a man who takes sex lightly (otherwise he would have taken at least one of those women who flirt with him on her offer): may it be self-punishment or faithfulness to his wife’s memory, sleeping, kissing or even dating a woman always was shown as a big deal for him in the show storyline. And since he realized that Lorelei was basically a victim of RJ too –a murderous, cruel, merciless one, who even almost cut off his fingers, but a victim nonetheless, someone people could pity if they might not love -, I think those intimate memories he had of her might leave a lingering trace in his mind. Someone as closed up as Jane doesn’t open up to someone, even physically, without changing even if only a bit the way he considers that person. And, again, that doesn’t mean he can’t still cynically, calculatingly and coldly plan to use them. Feelings and actions are two different things for this man.

    @Anomaly: about the resemblance between Lorelei and Lisbon, I fully agree with Phoenixx: beside the fact that they’re both pretty brunettes, there was something more in ‘The Crimson Hat”. When she approached Jane, she feigned disapproving his cynical speech and talked about her faith that helped her (all things were later expressed by Lisbon in the church); when she joined him at his motel room, she was wearing a sexier version of Lisbon’s usual work clothes, completed with a necklace reminding of Lisbon’s cross. She played the good girl to seduce him, which is amusing, since she later accused him of being a bit in love with Lisbon, who he constantly characterizes as a “good-two-shoes” or a “prude”. So it’s probable Lorelei took her as a model to get Jane to trust her (and more), since he likes Lisbon and he obviously was missing her in Vegas.

    @ Thanks Tringo! I really appreciate! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    I also want to know why RJ is RJ and why people, inclusive women are so willing to do what he wants even die for him knowing he is a women’s cruel killer.

  • mosquitoinuk

    @Violet
    My apologies if this is spoilers…it doesn’t say much?!

  • anomalycommenter

    Phoenixx & Violet: Thanks a lot for correcting me and making things clear! Both about similarities between Lisbon & Lorelei and about Lisbon calling Lorelei RJ’s “mistress”. You’re such sharp observers! I don’t know why, but I was totally oblivious to these details! And please pardon my lacking knowledge of the exact meaning of the words and my wrong judgments.

    Reader22 & Phoenixx: Well, one other possibly related curious thing is the story of the case of the week when we were first introduced to Director Bertram in the first episode of season 3: One of the victims who was a business partner of Bertram’s (whose wife’s description of his personality pretty much matches Bertram’s) was cheating on his wife and her secretary mentioned that she thought that his regular going out of the radar was due to him meeting his “mistress”, though it was not exactly the case.

  • Rose UK

    Good points re: the honesty thing, Violet & Phoenixx. Very plausible. 🙂

    @ Phoenixx: I can see where you’re coming from on Lorelei, but I can’t help thinking that she was an interesting character/player in the game. She gave us another mirroring thing (Lisbon!), she gave us an RJ clue (whether or not it was a good one is a matter of debate!) and perhaps most significantly she changed the game between J & L: her presence and Jane’s attitude and actions towards her forced them to re-evaluate their status. I kind of think they might have needed some kind of catalyst (alright, maybe not one that was so brutal!) in order to move forward (even thought it seemed like they were moving backward). Plus, Lorelei might have been a puppet, but she was also proof that the RJ spell can be broken (with truth)… Now, where is Kristina Frye and how can THAT particular spell be broken!?

  • suzjazz

    I always thought that “mistress” was a strange word for Lisbon to use referring to Lorelei: “mistress” implies that RJ is married, which he could be, but how would Lisbon know that? Why “mistress of a serial killer” instead of “lover of a serial killer,” girlfriend of a serial killer,” etc.? “Mistress” is also an old-fashioned word, meaning a woman who is in control of a man’s heart. It also has S & M connotations.

    I also like Lorelei as a character, but I also think she was psycho, and that RJ destroyed her humanity except for a tiny bit that was left. I see Lorelei as the “dark” as opposed to Lisbon’s “light.” (I don’t like to say “good and bad” because that oversimplifies something that is quite nuanced.) Physically, in her dress and the fact that she is a brunette, she does mirror Lisbon, but imho these things are superficial. She is much more overtly sexual than Lisbon. You can say a lot of things about Lorelei, but being repressed or shy isn’t one of them. Before she appeared dressed similarly to Lisbon’s work attire, practically all we saw was cleavage.
    Lisbon has always been presented as extraordinarily beautiful, but not overtly sexy, the kind of woman whose sexuality is usually hidden beneath androgynous clothing. It’s like the red rose/white rose symbolism that was discussed here earlier: red indicating passionate love, and white indicating spiritual or platonic love. Lisbon’s beauty is very pure, and it is a reflection of the deeply good (as someone said) person she is inside. We (or I, at least) get the sense that Lisbon could be physically passionate given the right circumstances (e.g. Mashburn), so that makes her a white rose who is red on the inside! Lorelei, on the other hand, may still have some good impulses, but she has become a killing machine before her death, and therefore cannot be called a “deeply good person.”

    Finally: @Carla: I love your phrase “blond mess”! 🙂 Perfectly describes Jane!

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx (and anyone else who is interested) My Mentalist fanfic is on fanfic.net! (the first two chapters–that’s all I have so far.) Go to TV shows, click on “Mentalist”, then search for suzjazz. My story may be at or near the top of the list of new stories. Review it and tell me what you think! Be ruthless! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    My penultimate post is still in wordpress limbo… 😦

  • phoenixx

    @ anomalycommenter: Interesting, don’t remember that. Well the writers often use the same word and we don’t catch it until it becomes obvious. Maybe there’s a hint.

    @Viloet: LOL we pretty much said the same thing 😉

    @Rose: I too think she’s an interesting character, I guess I somehow blame the writers that they wrote her so inconsistently. Her story just never made me pity her and BH’s interview before TWBB made it sound as of that was what they wanted.

    Okay and now ……………….
    SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILERSPOILER SPOILER SPOILER!!!!!!

    DO NOT READ IF YOU DON’T WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So we’ll get a new leading female character at the beginning of next year. I guess this means Amanda’s husband tweet is correct. So VP either dies or leaves and this woman will cause complications between Jane/Lisbon. But I think it’ll be work wise, she wants him to stay at the CBI when he considers leaving (maybe to be with Lisbon?). Maybe she’s a psycholgist?
    Anyway BH confirmed once again Jisbon has chemistry and they’ll have to confront the feelings they were used to hide behind RJ and the job once RJ is gone. Plus this means RJ will be caught by the end of the year.
    I’m so excited for this season and it’s still 2 months not to forget all the breaks we’ll have to endure. Oh yeah and what if the new woman replaces Bertram (if he’s RJ) he’d be gone by the end of the year and they need a new boss.

  • phoenixx

    Great my other comment once again lost in moderation, ugh.

    Thanks suzjazz, I’ll go chekck it out. 😀

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks, Suzjazz! Especially recommended to all Jisbon fans. 🙂

  • Suzanne Davis

    Thank you phoenixx and anomaly for following my fanfic! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    @ C Hill. Good episode! My favourite scene is when Erica and Jane are sitting in the car outside the prison giving each other little looks, then the door abruptly opens and a distinctly unamused Lisbon bundles in (and Jane has to scoot over to Erica). The array of expressions passing over all three faces at the same time is genius.

    Which raises a good question: All-time favourite scenes! (Hard, I know).

    I too have a missing post, lost for about a week. 😦 Oh well. Shall I dare to repeat some of it? Oh go on, then. Check out YouTube’s ‘song spoof crack vid’ for some Mentalist chuckles. (Well, I thought it was funny, at least…).

  • Carla Oliveira

    Yes, Suz; I love and hate that Blonde Mess almost in the same time.
    I really didn’t like Lorelei, but I could also hate her entirely; I felt for dying that way even I think she was conscious about the bad things she did; she wasn’t caring anymore; she was on automatic.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Please, I hate this Erica, mainly in this episode which Lisbon is so far. If this “lady” is coming back I need good punch in her nose by Lisbon and her being arrested once for all, by Lisbon.

  • C Hill

    i love the reaction to Erica based on gender 🙂 i sense a lot of folks on one side wanting Lisbon to beat the crap out of Erica. Looking at it from another point of view, I can think of another way they could work out their issues…LOL.. (That was a “pig” comment, Violet, just so you know 🙂 )

    I also love that initial car scene, Rose. Very well done I agree.

    Given how much Lisbon’s jealousy has been ramping up the past two seasons, I don’t think the writers can introduce someone else — Lisbon will be throwing punches at the very least next time!

    I think it’s been very interesting in how they’ve cast Libson’s “rivals” — Leslie Hope (as Kristina) is very attractive to be sure. However, Morena Baccarin and Emmanuelle Chriqui are just remarkably attractive — and Lisbon holds up fine.

  • Rose UK

    Pleasure, Phoenixx. 😉 It also occurred to me the other day that one is blinded by light too, although I’m not entirely sure what to make of the idea in a TM context. It came to me as I was watching Every Rose Has Its Thorn, with the use of the bright spotlights to mask Erica’s exit from the room. I wondered whether spotlights could be considered a motif in light (ho ho ho) of the show/spectacle/carnival theme that we were discussing a few reviews ago. When Jane found Kristina, there was a spotlight shining on her too, very artfully arranged (at least I think so, I might be mis-remembering). Maybe it could all suggest that the truth has been right in front of our eyes the whole time, but that it’s been hiding in plain sight somehow – that we’ve been blinded by the obvious. Probably won’t turn out that way, but I like the prospect nonetheless. 😉 Hope I haven’t overlapped too much with Violet’s upcoming work on this idea! Although I couldn’t think of any more instances of spotlights off the top of my head anyways… 😉

  • III Frogs

    @anomaly You have no idea how much fun it was to finally read your post about chaos (has it been two weeks?), and a number of other escapades into science which I recognize and enjoy. I won’t go into it here. All I’ll say is hang on to those parallel mirrors, sounds like they’re giving you great thoughts! Just think. Of all the chaotic systems impinging on our two lives, it is the breeze from the TM butterfly’s wings that fanned us each here. I wish something akin to Mendelbrot sets could be plotted for each human life. Wouldn’t that be interesting. And I’m sure quite beautiful. Meanwhile, this is me, waving at ya!

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx:
    Could you give us the URL where you read about the latest spoilers (new major female character, Jisbon has chemistry, etc.)?

    @Carla: I hate Erica too and would love to see Lisbon arrest her.

    My missing post finally showed up! It seems to be a common problem around here–I tend to take it personally and think my post is rejected because it is too long or too boring or both! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Aw, Suz. 😉

    “Of all the chaotic systems impinging on our two lives, it is the breeze from the TM butterfly’s wings that fanned us each here.” Lovely thought, Frogs. 🙂 Gotta say: I’ve no idea who any of you are in the ‘real’ world, hiding behind all these mysterious names, but I do enjoy discussing TM with you!

  • Rose UK

    Oh god, I’m about to spam everyone again (sorry), but this time I can’t help myself (again, sorry). A while ago we were talking about associating song lyrics with TM, well, I’ve come across a doozy. Not talking band or tune, just lyrics. If you’re interested, have a look at “Dust to Dust” by The Civil Wars. It even mentions mirrors! I think I’ve said enough.

  • III Frogs

    Great song, Rose UK! I love it. And I put it on Tumblr with the lyric. Wow. Perfect. Thanks for mentioning it. Gave you a hat tip for the song. 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    @III Frogs: Thanks a lot and hope that I’ve managed to make even a bit of sense! Wow, seems you also have a great talent in the art of writing very beautiful sentences! How true, our lives can indeed be regarded as solutions to some unknown equations; I too hope these solutions to have beautiful depictions! And thanks to those wings of the TM butterfly, I’m waving back at you! 🙂

    @ Lou Ann: Completely agree with you on that RJ’s smiley face gives the ultimate watchful vibe of all in the show. Also sorry for being too much vague in that last sentence, just hope my next long post made more sense! 🙂

    @Rose UK: It’s an honor for me to have the chance to read the comments of such wonderful people like you on this blog. It’s been one of the most enjoyable experiences I’ve ever had. 🙂 Also let me suggest you to see “Run Lola Run”, a really artistic film that also covers some of those topics, and one of the absolute best films that I’ve ever seen.

    @Suzjazz: Great comparison of the personalities of Lorelei and Lisbon! As you rightly mentioned even though the intention of the writers may have been to show the contrast of their personalities, but these characters are indeed quite complex. And in the face of such complexity it becomes hard for me to Judge them, but C Hill has a very good explanation of the nature of Jane’s relationship to them. Also thanks for your thoughts on Lisbon using the word “mistress”, quite helpful. The choice of that word may have been an alternative way for writers, as Phoenixx might have suggested above, to hint about RJ’s marital status to us outside of the logic of the show, or much less likely, we may have a parallel to when Lorelei, apparently unknowingly out of anger, revealed that Jane and RJ have shaken hands before, with this situation that Lisbon out of anger revealed a piece of info unknown to Jane, or maybe even to her own conscious mind!

    @Phoenixx: “Geez isn’t it amazing that after all this time we keep finding new aspects of the show, it so sad to know that lot of people watch it and think it has no depth.” Exactly my thoughts!

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks everybody! My replies to you just deemed to be not fit by the divine court of WordPress! 😦

  • C Hill

    I’ll try a quick reply to Carla and others – last one went into the ether!

    I love the reactions to Erica and Lorelei from the, shall we say, pro-Baker fanbase 🙂 I’ll just say that, whether intentional or not, Jane was lured by two of the most amazingly attractive women one can find and Lisbon held her own and, really, won. I think that says a lot.

  • suzjazz

    @ C Hill: Yes, Lisbon won, but I think it was hands down. Probably because I’m not a man, but I fail to see the great allure of either Lorelei or Erica. Lorelei is very sexy in a Playboy bunny kind of way, but she’s trashy; Erica reminds me of a man in drag (thick neck and man hands) (But that’s me. I’m sure no one else agrees with me.)

    The true beauties on the Mentalist are Teresa and Grace. No other female character comes close. They don’t have to dress provocatively to be exquisitely lovely and sexy at the same time. Refined beauty. But a lot of men go for the unrefined kind of beauty. Just sayin’.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I’m with you on that, Suz. Wise words. I think this Morena Baccarin is like a well-dressed transvestite. And Lorelei is a common type with a femme fatale’s attitude. Teresa and Grace did not give a chance to none of those two. But it’s an opinion of a woman.

  • Rose UK

    Gosh, poor Morena! I thought both she and the Lorelei actress were very pretty too, just in different ways to RT and AR.

    I never exactly hated Erica or Lorelei (or even ‘proto-Erica’ Brooke Harper in season 1) for their siren ways (I generally find it half annoying and half amusing when women act that way) but I disliked what Jane became when he was around them – they brought out his worst side. But I had faith that he was never really going to fall for it in the long-run. He’s a smart cookie. 🙂

    This all reminds me of the bit in War of the Roses when Lisbon is staring at CBI Ron (who is at Erica’s beck and call), going: “What do men SEE in this woman!” and Grace, usually the naive one, is all: “Dude, really?” Lisbon’s cluelessness is very endearing. 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Missing post!

  • suzjazz

    @Carla: Too true, ours is a woman’s view. Men are so often blinded by the types of women represented by Lorelei and Erica. I also think that Erica is supposed to be Jane’s Irene Adler (the only woman Sherlock Holmes ever admired/loved) because besides Red John, she is the only person who can match wits with him. I actually think that Lisbon is every bit as sharp as Erica, but of course she isn’t evil.

    The analogy with Irene Adler does not quite fit because in the Sherlock Holmes stories, she is not a murderer like Erica. She manages to fool Sherlock Holmes in the one story she appears in, “A Scandal in Bohemia.” Without giving any spoilers to those who have not read Conan Doyle(and if you have not, then you must! 🙂
    this story involves Irene trying to protect herself using a mind that is just as brilliant as Holmes’. Erica is clever and thinks that Jane will never catch her, but he figures out her game at the end of the episode.

  • suzjazz

    Missing post for me too! I just managed to get one in and was lulled into a false confidence that my next one would appear. Wrong! 🙂

  • C Hill

    suzjazz, carla, after careful consideration of your opinions of morena and emmanuelle, i’m afraid i’ll have to stick with my original opinion, that those two would cause most men to melt like a stick of butter in the hot sun 🙂 but i do find RT even more attractive, so please don’t burn me at the stake or anything!

  • Taissa

    Sooo…I was trying not to post here because of All the wordpress mess (but I’m having quite the fun reading all the comments). But then I read pheonix’s spoiler (right after I read it from another website). So… the rest of my comment will be all about spoilers.

    SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!SPOILER ALERT!
    SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!SPOILER ALERT!

    phoenix said “Oh yeah and what if the new woman replaces Bertram (if he’s RJ) he’d be gone by the end of the year and they need a new boss.”

    And, the tvfanatic.com has a quote from Heller, about the new character, that says: “When you’re as good a detective as Jane is, it’s very hard to walk away even when you want to walk away… Some people wont let Jane walk away from what he’s so good at. And our new female lead has something to do with that.”

    So, who would want Jane to stay as a detective other than CBI’s boss? And I think is quite possible that Jane quits after they catch RJ, he only started working for CBI to catch him in the first place. So, if the new actress is going to be CBI’s boss then…Bertram must be either RJ or his accomplice. Gosh, a single spoiler may have possibly spoiled the entire 6th season! Or I’m just guessing to much…

    Oh well, just hope this post doesn’t get traped in WordPress Hell.

  • Ifrah

    Sorry I have not been able to comment often on here, but Suzjazz, I must agree with you. I have always found a slight resemblance between Irene Adler and Erica, but I do not believe that Jane is as fond of Erica as Holmes was Irene, as he does have Lisbon, who is his true love, in my opinion. Lisbon is a very sharp mind as well as Erica, but her intentions are seldom astray from the law, and she is quite the character foil from Erica. (Yes, Conan Doyle’s books are a must-read!)

  • C Hill

    taissa…or RJ kills Bertram. or Bertram has to resign because RJ was at CBI the whole time…not sure this is a huge spoiler in and of itself.

    Ifrah, TM is, to a degree, another “what if Watson was a woman?” story, which puts the Irene Adler character in a different place as well.

  • Ifrah

    Yes, C Hill, that is very true, to a certain degree.

  • Lou Ann

    So has anyone else seen the video “Simon Baker on The Mentalist Season 6… at: http://interceder.net/latest_news/Simon-Baker. Look along the right side of the page and search for the above title. Increases my impatience for September to come.

  • Taissa

    Oh I didn’t think about RJ kiling Bertram, C Hill, that is also a strong possibility given his position as CBI’s Boss…if he’s not RJ himself. But the “Spoiler Alert” was because I quoted a phrase from Heller that was kind of a spoiler, so the No Spoilers Team wouln’t read it.

    As for Bretram being fired for having RJ under his nose the whole time, I’m not so sure about that one, it seems Bertram has been The Boss for quite some time (I think he already was Minelli’s boss in season 1, he just wasn’t shown) and CBI had a lot of crapstorm before, and he still maintained his job. Just to name some:
    There was an RJ minon (Rebecca) working there (and killed there too), RJ hacking their computers, Hightower “kidnapping” Jane, there was the bomb-car (with a man inside!) in CBI’s parking lot, there was Grace’s killer boyfriend (the first one, not O’Laughling), oh there was O’laughling and the shooting in Hightower’s mountain cabin that led to the death of two cops and O’Laughling, and the fake cleaner who put a bug in the bullpen, a man was put on fire in one of their holding cells, the fake psychiatrist drugging Lisbon. (seriously, doesn’t CBI keep a tab on their workers? Geez,…)
    Well those are the ones I remember now…

    Anyway, my point is, CBI has been invaded/breached,/attacked/spyed so many times and the man still maintained his job, I know RJ is a bigger fish and a bigger problem, but I think if he gets fired for having RJ the whole time whitout knowing then he should have being fired ages ago, unless he gets fired for the RJ problem and all the other problems pointed above.

    But, we will have to wait and see, and I can’t stand the waiting and I need to study for college tests instead of doing TM marathons! This tv show is ruining my life! hahahaha

  • Taissa

    Oh great, my post is in another dimension…good thing I made a backup!
    So, I’m sending it again:

    Oh I didn’t think about RJ kiling Bertram, C Hill, that is also a strong possibility given his position as CBI’s Boss…if he’s not RJ himself. But the “Spoiler Alert” was because I quoted a phrase from Heller that was kind of a spoiler, so the No Spoilers Team wouldn’t accidentally read it.

    As for Bretram resigning for having RJ under his nose the whole time, I’m not so sure about that one, it seems Bertram has been The Boss for quite some time (I think he already was Minelli’s boss in season 1, he just wasn’t shown) and CBI had a lot of crapstorm before, and he still maintained his job. Just to name some:
    There was an RJ minon (Rebecca) working there (and killed there too), RJ hacking their computers, Hightower “kidnapping” Jane, there was the bomb-car (with a man inside!) in CBI’s parking lot, there was Grace’s killer boyfriend (the first one, not O’Laughling), oh there was O’laughling and the shooting in Hightower’s mountain cabin that led to the death of two cops and O’Laughling, and the fake cleaner who put a bug in the bullpen, a man was put on fire in one of their holding cells, the fake psychiatrist drugging Lisbon. (seriously, doesn’t CBI keep a tab on their workers? Geez,…)
    Well those are the ones I remember now…

    Anyway, my point is, CBI has been invaded/breached,/attacked/spyed so many times and the man still maintained his job, I know RJ is a bigger fish and a bigger problem, but I think if he gets fired for having RJ the whole time whitout knowing then he should have being fired ages ago, unless he gets fired for the RJ problem and all the other problems pointed above.

    But, we will have to wait and see, and I can’t stand the waiting and I need to study for college tests instead of doing TM marathons! This tv show is ruining my life! hahahaha

  • Taissa

    Trying to replay to C hill but the post doesn’t show. Will wait a while and see if it shows…

  • C Hill

    No problem, Taissa. I will wait for your response.

  • Taissa

    Okay, here I go, trying again to post…

    Oh I didn’t think about RJ kiling Bertram, C Hill, that is also a strong possibility given his position as CBI’s Boss…if he’s not RJ himself. But the “Spoiler Alert” was because I quoted a phrase from Heller that was kind of a spoiler, so the No Spoilers Team wouldn’t accidentally read it.

    As for Bretram resigning for having RJ under his nose the whole time, I’m not so sure about that one, it seems Bertram has been The Boss for quite some time (I think he already was Minelli’s boss in season 1, he just wasn’t shown) and CBI had a lot of crapstorm before, and he still maintained his job. Just to name some:
    There was an RJ minon (Rebecca) working there (and killed there too), RJ hacking their computers, Hightower “kidnapping” Jane, there was the bomb-car (with a man inside!) in CBI’s parking lot, there was Grace’s killer boyfriend (the first one, not O’Laughling), oh there was O’laughling and the shooting in Hightower’s mountain cabin that led to the death of two cops and O’Laughling, and the fake cleaner who put a bug in the bullpen, a man was put on fire in one of their holding cells, the fake psychiatrist drugging Lisbon. (seriously, doesn’t CBI keep a tab on their workers? Geez,…)
    Well those are the ones I remember now…

    Anyway, my point is, CBI has been invaded/breached,/attacked/spyed so many times and the man still maintained his job, I know RJ is a bigger fish and a bigger problem, but I think if he gets fired for having RJ the whole time whitout knowing then he should have being fired ages ago, unless he gets fired for the RJ problem AND all the other problems pointed above.

    But, we will have to wait and see, and I can’t stand the waiting and I need to study for college tests instead of doing TM marathons! This tv show is ruining my life! hahahaha

  • Lou Ann

    SPOILER…TEASER…SPOILER…TEASER

  • Lou Ann

    In anticipating a season in which 7 suspects will be investigated by process of elimination, check out on Wikipedia Agatha Christie’s novel, And Then There Were None, the best selling mystery novel of all time. There is not a perfect parallel with Jane’s investigation, perhaps, but have any of you read the book and remember the twist?

  • North Coast

    Lou Ann,
    I love ‘And Then There Were None’, and that would be an evil plot twist for The Mentalist, indeed!

  • Taissa

    Attempt of a reply number 3612731462361243625. Hope this one doesn’t end up in space…again.

    Oh I didn’t think about RJ kiling Bertram, C Hill, that is also a strong possibility given his position as CBI’s Boss…if he’s not RJ himself. But the “Spoiler Alert” was because I quoted a phrase from Heller that was kind of a spoiler, so the No Spoilers Team wouldn’t accidentally read it.

    As for Bretram resigning for having RJ under his nose the whole time, I’m not so sure about that one, it seems Bertram has been The Boss for quite some time (I think he already was Minelli’s boss in season 1, he just wasn’t shown) and CBI had a lot of crapstorm before, and he still maintained his job. Just to name some:
    There was an RJ minon (Rebecca) working there (and killed there too), RJ hacking their computers, Hightower “kidnapping” Jane, there was the bomb-car (with a man inside!) in CBI’s parking lot, there was Grace’s killer boyfriend (the first one, not O’Laughling), oh there was O’laughling and the shooting in Hightower’s mountain cabin that led to the death of two cops and O’Laughling, and the fake cleaner who put a bug in the bullpen, a man was put on fire in one of their holding cells, the fake psychiatrist drugging Lisbon. (seriously, doesn’t CBI keep a tab on their workers? Geez,…)
    Well those are the ones I remember now…

    Anyway, my point is, CBI has been invaded/breached,/attacked/spyed so many times and the man still maintained his job, I know RJ is a bigger fish and a bigger problem, but I think if he gets fired for having RJ the whole time whitout knowing then he should have being fired ages ago, unless he gets fired for the RJ problem and all the other problems pointed above.

    But, we will have to wait and see, and I can’t stand the waiting and I need to study for college tests instead of doing TM marathons! This tv show is ruining my life! hahahaha

  • Taissa

    Okay! I give up, WordFreakingPress! You won this one! Happy now? Gosh, this thing it’s like a hungry beast eating people’s posts!!!

  • anomalycommenter

    Couldn’t keep my mouth shut, so I have to say that what an amusing discussion you were having on whom we might call Lisbon’s adversaries! 🙂 I totally agree with C Hill that somehow Lisbon is quite different, but don’t know how much our judgments are biased by the fact that we are fans of RT and this show.

    Great video and Song Rose! 🙂 I really enjoyed them. And yes it would absolutely be much more satisfying at the end if RJ is revealed to be hidden in the plain sight, even under a blinding spotlight, all along instead of *him* being a minor character we seldom encountered in the show. Not really entering into the spoilers’ realm, but even better if there is a big twist at the end!

    @ Taissa: Maybe WordPress is somehow trying to remind us of the glory days of what is now called snail mail correspondence, especially when is delivered to international destinations! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    Re Lisbon’s “adversaries:” Even if I were not a fan of Lisbon and RT, I would still say that Lisbon and Grace are more beautiful by far than any of the other women on the show and indeed any other show on TV. Lorelei and Erica aren’t even in the same league.

    Re the plethora of spoilers: The spoilers seem to be coming every day. I can’t keep up with it. It’s making me nervous. I don’t want to know so many spoilers. Is this a game they are playing with us? I get it that they want to generate more interest in season 6, but people are already excited about the list of 7 suspects. I read somewhere that 52 million people around the world watch TM, making it the most-watched drama. I don’t think all those people will stop watching if we don’t get any more spoilers.

  • anomalycommenter

    I totally agree with you Suzjazz about RT and AR. I was just wondering if that’s also the opinion of the non fans. And regarding the spoilers, well, if it really can help it’s understandable if they are doing this to keep interest in the show as high as possible especially within the US. ‘cause it seems that they were in a tricky situation last season with CBS explicitly confirming that season 5 could be the last season despite the spectacular success of the show around the world, apparently because global viewers can’t directly generate money for CBS. And so that leaves me, very much around that world, wondering why it has to be like this and can’t WarnerBros. really continue production without the support of CBS and just find another network to air the show in the US? Well, I think it’s safe to assume that the show’s revenue per US viewer, especially if aired by CBS, must be several times that of the average global viewer for the math to make sense.

  • Rose UK

    @ Frogs. Glad you liked it. Not familiar with Tumblr, but I shall take it as a compliment! 😉

    @ Anomaly. Lola Rennt! Yes, that’s a great film. 🙂

    @ Suz. Definitely agree that the network people can overdo the spoilers. If they raise the anticipation levels too much, they risk disappointing people in the long run (in my view). Far better to be teased just enough to ensure viewership, but for us to gain far more by expecting less! I for one don’t visit any TV sites apart from this blog and have ‘hidden’ Mentalist notifications on my FB newsfeed out of sheer paranoia! 😉

  • C Hill

    stay paranoid, rose. it’s gonna be tough to stay pure. without any additional knowledge, and as is typical in these situations, do not take all spoilers at face value.

  • phoenixx

    Back from vacation and reading my way throught he comments. Regarding the spoilers the spoilers that get out are usually in a way the same, Simon didn’t really say anything in his interview and the on twitter Jordan Harper mentioned that they’re not allowed to say anything untik the show starts. The only one leaking images but not saying anything either is Michael Gaston (Bertram). The pics are quite the teasers but again they don’t really say anything.

    To RJ killing of people from the list, it would certainly be interesting for one because he sort of would help Jane narrowing the list down. But we for example don’t know what’s the deal with Bertram and Kirkland (we know for sure they’re together on something) if they RJ’s adversaries he’d have a reason to kill them, then there’s the possibility of other minions on the list who might talk…God, I really need Season 6 now!

    Adding to the ‘who’s more beautiful’ discussion, like they say Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I personally like it more natural. Also Lisbon again is a contrast to women like Erica and Lorelei who were all but dolled up, not only the clothing but the make-up as well, Lisbon doesn’t wear a lot of make-up and doesn’t wear the most revealing or tight clothes (most of the time). And honestly if you compare Lorelei in Vegas and Lorelei out of prisson there are worlds in between. I wasn’t so struck by her beauty in the car and it made me once again realize what make-up can do to a person. Not to say I’m sure Emmanuelle Chriqui is a great person but she is no different to any other woman on the planet who just looks way better after the stylist laid a hand on her. And personally I’m in awe of RT in that regard cause she doesn’t need make-up to look good (just take a look at images of her coming out of the gym)
    Also I was a bit shocked to see Baccarin’s age. I seriously thought she was at least as old as RT if not older. I mean even EC is 2 years older than MB and she looks way younger as well IMHO.

  • phoenixx

    @Rose: “This all reminds me of the bit in War of the Roses when Lisbon is staring at CBI Ron (who is at Erica’s beck and call), going: “What do men SEE in this woman!” and Grace, usually the naive one, is all: “Dude, really?” Lisbon’s cluelessness is very endearing.”

    Well I don’t know if you can call it cluelessness, I for one was on her side. I mean it’s interesting that just because she was attractive men didn’t seem to care one bit that she was a murderer, no they all seemed to be pleased to maybe be her next victim if that meant they’re getting her attention.
    I always saw it that this was what Lisbon couldn’t wrap her head around, not so much why they find Erica attractive. I think with the “what do they see in her” we can take it as that for Lisbon Erica had no soul, no depth, she was just beautiful but anything else about her seemed cold, distant and calculating. I’m also sure that M. Baccarin is a lovely lady but I guess there’s a reason she usually gets roles in which she is the bad, cold and deceitful woman. At the end shows cast people on their looks as well and there is a pattern where Baccarin is concearned and that is beautiful but cold and evil.

    On the ratings: Well the live audience wasn’t that good but still good for the slot they’re on. If you take the DVR ratings TM was still one of the most watched shows last year, it shouldn’t surprise CBS that most people don’t stay up that late on a sunday especially since a lot of times it’s delayed or not even on at all and we have a 1-3 weeks hiatus.
    It kinda sucks that the rest of the world is dependent on American viewers, even more so with TM after all CBS isn’t putting any money in this show, technically they can only make money with no matter how many viewers but then I’m not in the business so what do I know.

  • phoenixx

    @sujazz: @phoenixx:
    Could you give us the URL where you read about the latest spoilers (new major female character, Jisbon has chemistry, etc.)?

    Not sure if you’re still interested (was on vacation so sorry for the delay) but here you go (on this sites you’ll find the other new spoilers as well):

    http://www.tvfanatic.com/2013/07/the-mentalist-to-introduce-new-series-regular/

    http://www.tvguide.com/News/MegaBuzz-NCIS-Arrow-Good-Wife-1068587.aspx

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx:
    I got my info on the exact same sites you did. I may have gone to some other fan site for the “Jisbon has chemistry,” but Heller says basically the same thing, and undoubtedly the Jisbon shippers were grasping onto any hint of a romance (I am one of them, but I am taking a pessimistic view so I’m not disappointed and maybe pleasantly surprised if it happens.) I just don’t trust BH or the other writers with Jisbon. If it ever happens, it will be so tiny as to be barely noticeable. But I could be wrong, so those optimists among you can continue to hope for the best!

  • KM

    @pheonixx,
    Perhaps this may help, but all US viewers are dependent upon Neilsen selected households. And of those selected it is the 19-49-year-old demographic that decides the fates of all programming. They are the one that all networks seek to court, not the millions who actually tune into watch the program, or stream it. This is because of the scarcity of viewers in this age demographic for advertisers to seek to attract. They are specifically focused on the C3 or C+3 numbers of the 19-49 demo. So it is the selected Neilsen 19-49 American viewers that we all are dependent upon together. FYI, TM performs best with the 25-54-year-old demographic. Hopefully the following links explain these well for you. And, my apologies for presuming that you should want more information. Cheers!

    http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/demystifying-the-s/

    http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/numbers-102/

  • phoenixx

    @KM: Thanks for that. Well they should change the ratings system anyway, Nielsen is way to a old system for the 21th century.

    @Sujazz: Sure Heller always trolls but then I remember he was the only one who wasn’t saying there’ll never be a romance between them while actors and Chris Long said they have a brother/sister relationship. I honestly think Heller always planned it in his 7 year Mentalist plan. Also it’s still a TV show and Heller knows how it works, they have to change something (especially when the two people I won’t mention leave) and let’s be honest if both of them or just one would hook up with someone else it would be ridiculous, they would keep mentioning each other probably all the time, after all they’ve spent almost approx. 8 years with the other being their focal point.
    Actually that’s always been a reason for me to ship them as well, because I just can’t see anyone who would know the other better than they do each other, like Jane said, he wants someone who loves him despite having seen his worst. And to just keep them alone, I’d find that sad and can’t see Heller doing that.
    But I see your point in expecting the worst case scenario and then be pleasantly surprised. 😉

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx
    Not only have all the lead actors (except Tim Kang who didn’t comment) maintained that Jane and Lisbon have a brother/sister relationship even as that idea has become increasingly more absurd: RT and SB seem to have a terror of allowing their characters get involved in anything physical. They seem to be very close friends (maybe more?) in real life and they feel awkward about it. RT has spoken about this at length. She would be embarrassed by any sex scenes (like that’s gonna happen anyway) because she knows SB’s wife and kids. Isn’t it time they both grew up and realized that they are actors, for God’s sake?

    This is based on interviews I have read online a while ago–I don’t know if they are still there. It’s possible BH gave them their marching orders since then. As I said before in another post, quoting Alfred Hitchcock:
    “I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle.”

    A bit harsh, perhaps, but maybe it’s time for BH to get out the cattle prod. 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Feel compelled to comment here, Suz, as I actually think it’s quite sweet and honest of RT to feel awkward about playing out romantic scenes. I’m not entirely sure that the “suck it up” ethos is an easy one to apply to (these) actors, because it strikes me as rather a complex profession in terms of identity, human relationships and personal emotion, which must be hard to stamp down on if you’re as close friends as RT and SB. And indeed probably some people find it easier than others. Not saying it can’t or shouldn’t be done, obviously (not least in consideration of the huge fandom), but in their shoes I would be inclined to feel the same, I’m sure. I mean, imagine if you had to kiss your closest male/female friend! It would be weird, wouldn’t it? Regardless of the job? And regardless of the depth of your relationship and whether you found them attractive or not? Probably afterwards it would be fine, you could laugh it off, but the anticipation of it… Err, yikes! Well, you know, I’m speaking for myself here. 🙂 But I also tend to think that this is a moot point, because I do believe that at some point there might be a kiss. But, you know, if there isn’t, I’ll be fine about that too. Don’t get me wrong: I love the ‘ship, but I’m fine with wherever it takes us. The beauty of fiction is that stories finish, but we readers/viewers can carry them on just as we please. 🙂

    PS Phoenixx: Hm, good point. Never saw Lisbon’s attitude that way before, but you could well be right!

  • Lou Ann

    As for “What to men SEE in this woman (Erica),” didn’t PJ also state something like, “All women know the allure of a dangerous man.” Erica is just gender role reversal.

  • suzjazz

    To those who gave me the thumbs down: do you think I am making this up? I assure you I am not. And I am not the only one who believes that 1) good actors can pretend to be in love and do it convincingly and b) they need to listen to the director. Assuming Heller even wants a romance to happen.

  • phoenixx

    @sujazz: Agree with you I’ve been saying it before, the’re actors and romance is part of the job most of the time. A lot of actors are good friends with each other on other shows too and they have to play couples.

    But SB actually has never outright said he doesn’t want a relationship between them or that it would be awkward, that’s usually RT and even she comes around now by saying part of her would like to know what it’s like to kiss him. And SB already said in an video interview that there’s always a possibility Jisbon could happen which was at the end of S2. So I think all this stuff about them not getting together was a way to make it mysterious just like who’s RJ. They can’t go around and say “yeah at the end, you know, they’re going to get together”. That would be like telling straight in Ep1 of S1 “he’s RJ”. Also I think that the fact it wasn’t always in our faces and they’ve been talking it down is what made this relationship so intriguing for us and for us to want it to become canon.

  • phoenixx

    Oh and there was also this interview from 2011:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/culture/television/5569813/The-dark-knight-of-television

    “How do you set up the idea that maybe Jane and Lisbon could really be together?
    “I think you’d first have to establish that Jane is able to explore his sexuality and I don’t think that should be with Lisbon. I think that should come through something else, ” Baker says.

    Lorelei anyone?!

  • Rose UK

    @ Suz, um, I wrote a comment (MIA) that tended to side with RT’s point of view, but just fyi I stick to ‘thumbs-up’ clicking or no clicking at all. 😉 (Not saying it’s not ok to click ‘thumbs-down’ if people want to, obvs). Ooooh, Internet etiquette is hard! 😉

  • C Hill

    as i said earlier in the summer, if you look at RT’s reaction to SB surprising her in Monte Carlo(?), i think the idea that RT is going to struggle with any kind of on-screen hanky panky with SB goes right out the window!

  • suzjazz

    C Hill, I hope you’re right! 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Well, l absolutely do recognize everybody’s right to give thumbs down to any comment they wish, but imho writing a comment in response and explaining our point of view maybe more constructive. In addition, giving thumbs down may discourage people from participating further in the discussion as I suspect it to have happened before here. Saying that, I have also to say that I may be of a different opinion to our dear fellow commenter Suzjazz in the particular issue of exactly what should we expect from the actors and how much professionalism should justify them acting against their will. Living in a country with absolutely no respect for civil and human rights, I may be biased towards fighting for every single bit of freedom and also may not properly understand the norms and culture of the American society and the scope of the contracts actors sign, but it must not be very strange if we expect actors to have the freedom of choice in the matters that may be considered relevant to their private lives. Despite of the big paying and the relatively easy and low responsibility jobs they may have, yet imho it’s not right to force them to have close intimacy with another actor against their will, particularly if it was not explicitly agreed with them in the first place when they signed up for the job. Of course pretending to be in love with another actor in a show is a totally different matter, and again it’s just my humble and naive opinion.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Ok, I had chosen to let it pass at first, because I didn’t want to initiate a potentially endless and fruitless discussion, but frankly, those two comments of yours bother me a bit, Suz.

    First, I don’t really like the idea that some people should be treated like cattle, may it be a quote from the truly admirable Hitchcock or not. He was a real genius -that goes without saying- but that line is still questionable. Even more used by a simple fan, instead of the man who directed them… He made them do as he wanted because he had a pretty precise idea of what result he wanted on screen, but we fans are just at the receiving end and have concretely no hand in the process. But, of course, that’s just my opinion.
    Plus, Anomaly is right: people are entitled to their opinion and have a right to be more or less comfortable in situations which may arise during their work. Losing their liberty of thought is not part of their job description. I don’t recall any interview where neither of those actors *refused* to play a love scene: they just said they wouldn’t be very comfortable with it; if I’m not mistaken, actor Kang said something similar at the beginning of his character’s romance with Summer: he said he tried to make the actress as comfortable as possible during those scenes (as it happened, I think they were never in bed together, but she was often more or less in her underwear). I don’t really think any fan would have scoffed at his thoughtfulness, yet it steams from the same awareness that actors are people and people have feelings.

    Second point, regarding the thumbs up or thumbs down thing: as unpleasant as it is to see one’s comment receive thumbs down, it’s part of the feedback. I think almost everyone writing regularly on this blog have received some at some point. Some people may disagree with you and thus some of them will suck it up and remain silent, while others will comment and argument; last, some will only manifest their disagreement silently, either because they are too shy, or because they don’t write very well in English, or because they don’t want to argue with other commenters or whatever may be their reason. It’s their right too and I don’t want to be harsh, but I find it a bit discourteous to accept thumbs up as a given but to make a scene because of some thumbs down. As someone who has received some too, I think they’re part of the game: certainly an unpleasant and frustrating part, but a part nonetheless.

    On a brighter side, I also agree with Phoenixx: I think the unanimity showed in denying any romantic side of their relationship might be a way to pick people’s curiosity. This aspect has been building up very slowly: to let it officially in the open in the early seasons when the characters hardly touched at all was a bit premature. If they had encouraged the shipping, most shippers would have been tired of waiting since nothing remotely concrete had happened until very recently…

    (I hope no offense was taken, Suz. 😉 )

  • III Frogs

    I have to chime in here and say I support suzjazz and hold basically the same opinion. These are professional actors of twenty years and more experience who have each been in many sex scenes involving kissing and more in many movies and/or TV shows. I’d also like to point out that the quote from Robin we’re discussing is from 2009 and a lot has changed in TM since then. Also, Robin has given a more recent interview, I want to say 2012 but I can’t find it and don’t remember if it was video or print, where she says she doesn’t know about if they’ll kiss but she was carrying her breath spray around just in case. Simon has never expressed an aversion to kissing Robin specifically that I remember, could be wrong. Robin has to answer these questions all the time but she absolutely cannot say yea or nay, if she even knows, because as Violet says, she can’t give away the plot. As a woman who has had male friends I felt a physical attraction for who were involved with other women friends of mine, I can totally relate to feeling awkward about potentially kissing the guy as part of a play or something. But that has to do with my own feelings of attraction. As a professional, I’m sure Robin and Simon are quite capable of dealing with this. I can’t think of a man more committed to his wife and family, and therefore more safe, for Robin to kiss than Simon. If it’s in the script, she’ll do it. Of that I have no doubt. If worse comes to worse, they can use a body double for the really steamy parts. I hope not because that would rob the viewers, especially the shippers, of the authenticity that we crave. May be an unpopular opinion, but it’s mine, thanks.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    III Frogs, don’t get me wrong: I am not saying that she won’t do it. Of course, they’re professional and if such a scene is ever written, it would be played, and very well played at that. No doubt about it.
    What bothered me is the rather “harsh” way Suzjazz chose to phrase her comment. Plus, again, actors have the right to express preferences in the scenes they film: to take another example related to Hitchcock, I’ve been told that he took the habit of unexpectedly frightening actress Vera Miles with mummy heads to gauge her reaction to them during the filming of ‘Psycho’. He chose the one which made her shriek the loudest for the movie and Miles played the scene in the basement to perfection; yet, I don’t think it would have been surprising if she would have admitted that it had been a rather unpleasant scene to film, if asked. Emotional reactions are only human. (Not that I’m comparing finding a mummy to kissing SB, of course, lol…)

    And you’re right: if that interview is that old, the discussion is even more pointless…

  • suzjazz

    I can totally see your point of view. However, while I am not without sympathy for the nuanced feelings actors have for each other, especially in a long-term series, I stand by my view that as an actor, you have to be ready to play anything (barring physical or emotional torture) Hitchcock’s remark I do not take literally–I do not mean that actors ought to be treated like cattle in that they have no feelings; I simply believe that the director’s word ought to be law, and if he or she wants the leads to be romantic, then it is the actor’s duty to do the best job possible. All of us who perform have to do things we’d rather not in the course of our career. It is a testament to the professionalism of actors that they are able to play love scenes with someone who is not their lover. Vivien Leigh was quoted as having said that Clark Gable had terrible bad breath and she dreaded kissing him, but she carried on.

    Several have expressed a view in opposition to mine, and they have a valid case, I just happen to disagree. My comment re the thumbs down: I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that some people thought I was slandering SB and RT. It’s likely that the leads have changed their views since the interviews I read, so I may not be giving them the credit they deserve, in which case I stand corrected.

    The “cattle prod” comment was a bit harsh but I meant it partially in jest. Joking doesn’t come across well in posts. 🙂

    And no offense taken–I love this blog.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    “It’s likely that the leads have changed their views since the interviews I read, so I may not be giving them the credit they deserve, in which case I stand corrected.”

    Actually, I think the whole cast/ crew may have been more or less leading us on to some extend during many of the interviews they gave, one way or another. After all, Baker was the director for ‘Red Moon’ and it featured the very first time Jane showed physical attraction to Lisbon as he tried to take a peep while she was dressing in her motel room. It means that he chose both as an actor and as a director to play that almost wordless scene that way, while he never outright admitted that the characters were heading towards more-than-friendly feelings…

    Honestly, I think everything about this show is to be taken with a grain of salt… 😉

  • KM

    I always find it helpful to go back to the beginning with Jane and Lisbon, back to the first season DVD’s interview with Heller and company, because then one can watch SB, RT, and BH explain that Jane and Lisbon’s relationship has been a triangle of dominant feelings from the beginning (parental-sibling-flirtatious) created to give them longevity. Initially ’twas an equilateral triangle, and over time the triangle is becoming obtuse.

    I sometimes wonder if we misinterpret what actors are exactly saying because we are not living in their world. This is only the experience of our family friend who is a director, mostly small indie films, but love scenes are one of the first things filmed because it’s easier to film them when actors have not developed emotional attachments. Maybe there is no unwillingness on either SB’s or RT’s part to do such scenes, and what we ‘hear’ are just an honest acknowledgement of their very human feelings between two friends? Just a thought.

    @ III Frogs, you’re looking for one of the 100th episode interviews with Robin Tunney. She stated that she would be keeping her breath fresh, and as a professional actress that she’d do as Heller wished.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Really enlightening and insightful comment, KM! The “triangle of feelings” metaphor is very accurate, indeed! Thank you very much! 😀

  • Rose UK

    “…love scenes are one of the first things filmed because it’s easier to film them when actors have not developed emotional attachments […] what we ‘hear’ are just an honest acknowledgement of their very human feelings between two friends…”

    Just what I was trying to say, KM! Nicely put. 🙂

  • III Frogs

    Yes! Thank you KM, I knew it was recent, felt like fifth season, early. Thanks!

  • anomalycommenter

    I hope that I have not offended anyone with my comment. It really was not my intention at all. If the comments of Rose UK were not trapped in the moderation limbo, I might not have bothered you with repeating essentially the same things. And thanks to you all, especially to those who may not share my views. I totally understand what you are saying Suzjazz, and III Frogs. My view of the matter might be a naïve and uneducated one, but one thing I’m sure of; no man in his right mind would object to such professionalism! 😉 Well, one factor that I may add to what KM said with mathematical precision in describing the situation is the length of the time actors who play parts in such long running shows spend with each other in contrast to those who play in movies. Also I presume that in movies they have the benefit of reading the whole script even before they sign up for the job. Lastly seeing the broad range of POVs discussed here in it and regardless of the matter is beautiful. If disagreements were tolerated everywhere so nicely, as Violet described above in addressing the vote up/down feature, it surly would have made a much better world. 🙂

  • KM

    You’re welcome Rose, Violet, and III Frogs.

    I agree with you anomalycommenter. Thank you for reminding me that The Mentalist is in its sixth season, and that a days filming for SB and RT can last for 17 hours or more. Those hours have provided the means for a deep friendship and familial attachments that movie actors do not normally deal with. I imagine that when The Mentalist finally wraps up that they will feel a very real loss (and of course some joy for new opportunities) with the end of their daily camaraderie. It is a good things for us as viewers that the cast are so fond of each other.

  • C Hill

    IIIFrogs, that’s a pretty subtle attempt at offering yourself up as a body double for RT! 🙂

    I don’t think it’ll be a big issue for either of them if that’s the way Heller wants to go — plenty of current and past examples on TV and film. As an actor, these situations are an expected part of the profession.

  • III Frogs

    Ha ha, C Hill! What a great fantasy that is! Unfortunately, I would not fool any viewer! *sigh*

  • suzjazz

    @violet
    “Honestly, I think everything about this show is to be taken with a grain of salt… ;)”

    I agree with you. BH is always inscrutable, and the actors don’t want to give away anything so they say as little as possible. Which is good. There are so many contradictions and mysteries in the plot lines that we have to just be willing to accept that as the nature of the series.

  • suzjazz

    Newsflash folks: There is a trailer of a Season 6 preview on YouTube now. It’s short but scary.

  • Ifrah

    I have seen it, Suzjazz, and it appears that everyone’s predictions were quite accurate, as Lisbon may have been kidnapped by RJ.

  • C Hill

    oh, suzjazz, don’t play up that “no drama” promo like that! LOL. wow, a lot of melting going on in the social media world today. it’s a 50/50 call for those who don’t like spoilers, mainly because it’s going to be hard to avoid the trailer on CBS over the next month. suzjazz is right — short and scary.

  • III Frogs

    Are we talking about the promo for season six and the promo pix for The Desert Rose over here. Not sure if that’s spoilers or not and it’s hard not to talk about news that CBS and The Mentalist are putting out themselves. Just checking.

  • C Hill

    yes, enty, that is what’s being “discussed”. the promo pix you can stay away from, i suppose, but the promo is the Big Deal.

  • phoenixx

    Ok guys, after that promo and even more after the new BH spoiler I’m officially done…..

  • suzjazz

    What new BH spoiler? (just direct us to the link–I don’t want anyone to get information they don’t want.)

  • anomalycommenter

    Waiting for the next season to arrive is becoming harder and harder every day! Why am I so childish?! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    You’re not the only one, Anomaly! Wishing our lives away, the lot of us. 😉

  • phoenixx

    @suzjazz: The link Raven postet is the one 😉

  • phoenixx

    Sorry but I’ve got to rant here as well….I read the comments on TvGuide the people saying Jane+Lisbon not having chemistry and having a brother/sister relationship…i mean wth…what relationships do they have with their brother/sister?!
    I respect anyones opinion and if they want them together or not but to deny there’s “sexual” chemistry and that they never had anything flirty going on…uhhhh….He talked with her about her fetish, told her “I love you”, his subconscious wonders if she has a boyfriend and if they ever had you know… helloooo, what show are they watching?

    Sorry just this whole hanging on to something that was said in 2009 and afterwards even said by Baker himself (oh yeah someone even said that Baker maybe could do anything from preventing a relationship between them because he never ever wanted one) who has since then always said the possibility is there…just seriously goes on my nerves!

    God that’s the same with people still thinking Jane or one of the team is RJ!

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx: I agree with you completely. In fact, I instigated previous rants on these very subjects. But given the last BH comment, a J/L relationship seems a bit more probable.

    I read somewhere that TM is loosely based on the Siegfried Norse myth that is the theme of Wagner’s famous Ring series. In other words, there is a fairy tale aspect to the show. The drug-induced meeting with Charlotte was straight from Alice In Wonderland, rabbit and all.

    Now, in real life, it would be very unusual for two people to be attracted and in love for close to a decade, working closely together, and never once share even a kiss. But in a fairy tale: The evil Red John has cast a spell over them which they must break by killing him (I’ll be disappointed if he’s merely brought to justice and imprisoned because there is no jail that could hold him for long.) So it doesn’t seem so improbable to me that there could be a fairy tale romance: the hero are finally able to be lovers once the evil monster is dead.

    I too am perplexed and annoyed by those fans who still say they are siblings despite all the evidence to the contrary. They aren’t watching the same show that you and I are.

  • suzjazz

    I just re-read my last comment and it was inaccurate: in real life there are probably thousands of couples in the workplace worldwide who are secretly in love (or not-so-secretly) and never get a chance to realize their passion for any number of reasons. It’s just that given the period of years that this has been happening on TM, probably most people would have given up and moved on. But the fact that neither J nor L has moved on with anyone lends a romantic aspect to the show. Of course Jane *can’t* move on until his family is avenged, but what’s Lisbon’s excuse? One night with Mashburn and a few dates with characters who never appear onscreen does not count. Mancini, obnoxious as he is, is obviously enthralled with her–I just watched an episode in which the CBI and FBI are feuding and I kept waiting for him to ask her on a date!

    There is clearly a reason that Lisbon has fallen in love with Jane and can’t move on with someone else.

  • Rose UK

    @ Suz: Being quite interested in folklore and myths (and how they present hidden meanings in analogies and symbolism), I must say I do like the fairy tale angle! Some instant thoughts:

    – How many times have we referred to Lisbon as the ‘white knight’ and/or Jane as the damsel in distress (complete with golden locks)?! Nice little role reversal there.
    – Wagner is the name of the doctor in the pilot. Who I still think might possibly have something to do with RJ, based purely on the idea that stories often finish where they started in one way or another. 😉
    – We’ve had other allusions to fairy tale myths, for example the siren Lorelei (German mythology)
    – The only thing I vaguely know about the Nibelungen is that Siegfried is a dragon-slayer (dragon = RJ).

    Bet there’s lot more you could say on this subject – hm, perhaps I’ll have to dig a little deeper this weekend!

  • Rose UK

    Sorry – can’t stop thoughts springing into my head now. Another (rather tenuous) allusion you could draw:

    Based on his chronic insomnia: Jane as some kind of Sleeping Beauty figure, only trapped in a waking nightmare, in a castle (=heart) heavily fortified by brambles and thorns (=someone needs to cut them away to allow the sunlight to enter, linking it to our ideas about light & dark), to be awoken (=or “returned to life”, to link it to the Dickens/Two Cities symbolism) with a kiss (=preferably Lisbon, thanks, Bruno).

    Too much?! 😉 My mind’s just floating free tonight!

    PS I’d very much like Minelli to be their fairy godmother. Heh.

  • Rose UK

    In response to Phoenixx & others discussing the show’s will-they-won’t-they trajectory/Bruno’s intentions, here’s my two cents’…

    Not that I know anything whatsoever about film or TV making (!), but it seems to me that every producer/actor wants their show to be “different” or unconventional. So at the start, they’re all, “No, no, we’re not going down that route – it’s a cliche, it’s tired” etc. etc. but eventually the pull is just too strong. Even if they never intended to create a will-they-won’t-they scenario/get their lead actors together, their canny viewing-figure minds *know* that this is one of the main reasons that people keep watching. So they start teasing us… And then of course they back themselves into a corner: they’ve either got to do it and annoy people who wanted something “different” or not do it and piss off the ‘shipping fandom.

    The thing with double acts is that for the partnership to work on any level, the two leads have GOT to have some form of chemistry. With a heterosexual man/woman combination, there’s always going to be the added element of possible attraction as the basis for this chemistry – and it’s just human nature to look for it, especially when the two leads get on so well. I can’t think of a single program that hasn’t explored this idea to some degree – like I said, program makers know full well that this is precisely the kind of stuff that draws the viewers in.

    I don’t know if Bruno originally did or didn’t want J&L to end up together – maybe he never really knew and just decided to see how it all panned out – but you can’t stick a scene like the frog scene in your pilot and expect people not to be sucked in by the ‘ship right from the start. Whether it was a cynical ploy to draw some of us more romantically-minded viewers in, or whether it was genuinely planting the seed for a future relationship, or even both, it certainly worked on me!

  • anomalycommenter

    Very interesting, made me wish I had even a little bit of familiarity with the English classics or folklore. About the exact type of relationship Jane and Lisbon have, it’s obvious to me, too, that they’re developing ever more deep feelings for each other. From their exchange of glance and reactions in the “paper frog” scene in the pilot, and (because of my bad English) her still mysterious reaction for me of looking in a really interesting way and uttering “Bite me” in response to Jane insisting that she thought that he is trying to seduce her in ‘Red Hair and Silver Tape’, to their mutual feelings in ‘Devil’s Cherry’ and finally to the scene when Sean Barlow apparently reads Lisbon’s thoughts. Also they both seem to show interest or even act somewhat jealous when their so called rivals appear on the scene. Yet they both always have their reservations, some of which we already know the reasons, but I bet some are unknown to us, or that’s just my perfectionist mind trying in vain to fill in the gaps! Anyway, all your passionate talks about this subject made me go back and read the fantastic review Violet and Reviewbrain wrote for the favorite episode ‘Devil’s Cherry’, a second time. There RB in a very interesting paragraph among other things states that “… while we practically have Jane’s feeling in canon now, we can only guess at Lisbon’s. I’ve always said she’s more of a mystery than Jane.” Sure it seems that their feelings for each other and our understanding of it has deepened since then, but I still see RB’s statement there totally valid and accurate. Don’t know if Heller ever had a nearly finalized plan on the true nature of their relationship, and as Rose UK mentioned above how much he might have bent under viewership pressure to change that, but in the name of seeing too much into everything I always felt that he kept a dark or otherwise crucial aspect of it for the right moment late in the story. Just let me bring up some of their conversations in two of the past episodes which I found, rightly or most probably wrongly, interesting:

    ‘*Every* Rose Has Its Thorn’: Lisbon in reference to Erica Flynn: “I don’t get it. What is it about this woman? Why are you so obsessed with her?” Jane: ”Because *she* doesn’t think I’m smart enough to catch *her*!”

    ‘Like a Redheaded Stepchild’: Lisbon to the sister of a dangerous criminal which he persuaded to date a prison guard, who wanted to build a case against him and transfer him to a maximum security prison, and find his weaknesses, only to develop feelings for the guard (when she could not say this herself): “You told him you couldn’t do it anymore and he got mad” But even though she was threatened by her brother, she could not be persuaded to make a statement against him: “No, I’m sorry, that’s… That’s my brother.”

  • suzjazz

    Interesting comments both Rose and anomaly. There is so much scope for interpretation in TM. I don’t know how much of the archetypal significance and mythology (though it certainly fits) was intended by BH and the other writers, but at least some of it is obviously intentional. And who knows if BH has a master plan in operation since the beginning of the series? It’s quite possible and even likely that he has amended the plan by now if he had one.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    KM explained some time ago that there was a triangle of most fundamental aspects of their relationship, saying that “Jane and Lisbon’s relationship has been a triangle of dominant feelings from the beginning (parental-sibling-flirtatious) created to give them longevity. Initially ’twas an equilateral triangle, and over time the triangle is becoming obtuse.” I can’t help but agree and think that shades of attraction/ flirting were an assumed part of the deal even at the very beginning.

    I mean, it gives the show some balance: except for his tragic past, the main vibe Jane was giving off in the pilot was that he was an inconsiderate jerk who didn’t really give a damn about consequences. Writers had to compensate that by putting forward other things:

    1) to avoid making him hateful, they had to insist on a form of affection in regard to his character. Hence his complex relationship with Lisbon. But then too the situation could be tricky, for if she were too obviously attracted to him, it could undermine her character as well (she would be nothing more than a desperate lovesick fool pinning for a man all bent in mocking her authority and destroying her career). That alone may explain why the writers developed their relation as a deep friendship whose teasing reminding of brotherly love. Yet, that kind of affection is pretty static plot wise since except for giving the other character advice and support, it does not give much space for evolution… So they spiced things up a bit by adding a sliver of flirting to the mix, with moments like the frog, the “seducing over a meal” discussion or when Jane pretends to read her mind and remarks that she’s blushing, making one wonders about what she may have been thinking for her to feel embarrassed by the idea that he might be aware of it. By doing so, there’s more dynamism and tension between the two characters and it allows for some potential plot development at a later date. And, last but not least, that kind of layered bond makes their antagonism about RJ’s demise even more dramatic…

    2) … indeed, antagonism is a very potent aspect of their interactions too. Again, since Jane acts basically as a jerk most of the time in the beginning of the show, it wouldn’t be very credible if Lisbon wasn’t put off by his attitude at some point: after all, in this case she represents both the authority and the moral point of view that viewers may assume. This opposition itself has to be tempered by a certain level of protectiveness both in order to make their working relation harmonious and to explain why she accepted to put up with such an unruly consultant. And here comes the “parent” aspect: that’s why Lisbon always tries to protect both his person and his status; she is later referred as a tutelary figure (Glinda from ‘The Wizard of Oz’ during season 2) and assumes the position of the responsible adult (particularly visible in the high school episode ‘Something Rotten in Redmund’). Jane’s protectiveness in season one only appears clearly once but is very meaningful since he killed Hardy for her. He also gives her a pony, after having irritated her about not receiving said gift from “Daddy”…

    It seems that those three aspects really create some equilibrium: the flirting aspect and the sisterly-brotherly one are as important as the parental vibe between those two. At least in the earlier seasons, it makes no sense to me to negate one in order to insist on the other, since the three are here indeed and balance the other two. Of course, recently, the parental aspect is a bit overshadowed by the more mature and open partnership Jane has started accepting – or so it seems. And the best friends/ brother-sister part seems to be taking progressively a back seat since Jane is stating to pay special attention to his partner more often: teasing and flirting are beginning to become more intricate (asking her is she was jealous in ‘Red Gold’, the fetish talk in ‘Red Velvet Cupcakes’), yet a seriousness is slowly and surely entering their relationship (visible for instance when they’re holding hands in the desert).

    Also, it may be only me, but I think that this kind of complexity adds depth to the show, because if Lisbon was only his protective boss, his best friend/ surrogate sister, or even only a love interest after Angela, it would not make their opposition concerning RJ as credible. I mean, the man wouldn’t hesitate to let her down in order to get his revenge. Now that she holds so many emotional strings in her hand, the decision may get a little bit more difficult for him to take…

  • anomalycommenter

    Wow! Thanks to you Violet and to KM, that’s the most accurate description of their relationship I’ve ever seen. 🙂

    Changing the subject, one thing that despite you and RB’s excellent explanation in the ‘Devil’s Cherry’ review still occupies my mind is that why did Jane effectively, through his image of Charlotte, asked himself the exact question of ”Does anyone know who you are?” (with a somewhat worried and highly curious voice). Instead of asking something like ”Is there anybody who is close to you?” or “Does anybody know you well?”? Isn’t there an intentional air of ambiguity about the exact meaning of this question?

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Thanks, Anomaly ! 🙂

    I think the « does anyone knows who you are » refers to the fact that Jane has been hiding his true self for almost a decade now: before, even if he was a conman and if as such he was hidding his intentions to his clients, we can guess he disclosed his feelings and his true thoughts to Angela. But now, everyone, the team included, is often fooled by his persona of a brilliant yet childish, cheerful but unrepentantly troublemaking consultant. Actually, Lisbon is really the only one who managed to see who he is beneath the mask, to gauge both his true reactions to events (looking at his retreating form after looking at the picture Rigsby sent of his newborn son), his real motives (asking him why he was all bent on catching Erica, for instance), and who has witnessed his doubts, for example during the debacle with Darcy. She’s basically the only one he has come to trust enough to let her in and to get a glimpse into his real self every now and then. Hence that precise question, imho: “Charlotte” was simply asking him if he was so deep into his lies that he forgot who he was deep down. For someone who spent his life conning and manipulating people and who has a twisted view on truth, that’s a valid question, I guess…

  • anomalycommenter

    Great interpretation, thank you very much!

  • Taissa

    Wow, I don’t normaly comment but I had to come here and say that this is, like @anomalycommenter said, the most accurate description of their relationship ever! Oh, I wish Bruno Heller read this blog…
    Thank you Violet, comming here and reading your posts and comments is a blast! ^ ^

  • KM

    Thank you both, Anomaly and Violet.

    I appreciate your insightful comments.

    And, if anyone wants to find the discussion of the dominant feelings of Lisbon and Jane? I found it in the bonus features on the season 1 DVD set, within the “Evidence of a Hit” feature. Cheers!

  • phoenixx

    Thanks Violet wonderful evaluation again 😀

    And I have to agree with Rose about the chemistry aspect which was exactly my point, what made me roll my eyes at those comments on TVG. Cause a show simply wouldn’t work if the two main characters wouldn’t have any chemistry.

    The different aspects of their relationship is what added to the shows appeal and what made me love these characters and I for one wasn’t a shipper at all at the beginning, I thought the frog was lovely but I didn’t see any necessarily “romantic” vibe there. I loved the fact about the show that there was no “will-they-won’t-they” aspect, LOL.
    And when they danced at the highschool reunion and BH and the writers chose the song “More Than Words” I was frankly a bit gobsmacked that of all the songs they could have chosen they took this one. For me that was some indicator of BH clearly thinking in that direction. Seeing how many subtle hints they drag through all the episodes wether it be about RJ or anything else I personally think that this was another one and actually not so subtle way of BH to say, yes at some point there will be “romance”.

    Checking the lyrics btw I came across an interesting thing regarding what happened later on in the show in the S4 finale. Jane saying “love you” but taking it back in the song it says: “What would you say if I took those words away”, then Jane taking Lisbon’s hand in the desert (which really was the first time such an intimate contact happened), in the song it says: “And just reach out your hands and touch me”
    I’m sure there would be more comparisons and maybe I’m interpreting the hell out of it but it stands to reason this song was no coincidence since I don’t believe Heller does anything without a reason!
    Plus the show barely uses songs so the ones they do use have to have a deeper meaning, imho. 😉

  • phoenixx

    This is a new interview with Simon about Season 5 which has premiered in France: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a77eY7nFo3w&sns=tw

    What I love about this interview is his explanation why he chose as a director of “RSITS” to have Lorelei bath in the ocean and what he tried to tell with that.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    @ Taissa and Anomaly: sorry for the late reply… Thanks a lot for your very kind encouragements: I don’t really know what to say but I really appreciate them! Thanks! 😀

    @ Thanks KM! 🙂 I shall check it out!

    @ Phoenixx: Pretty intriguing analysis with “More Than Words”! You may be right: the song reminds a bit of the relation between Jane and Lisbon since they share some details, such as taking back the confession, reaching out and touching her hand… Even those lyrics might match the events in Vegas to some extent:
    “What would you do if my heart was torn in two
    More than words to show you feel
    That your love for me is real
    What would you say if I took those words away
    Then you couldn’t make things new
    Just by saying I love you”.
    We have Lisbon’s suffering during his six-months leave (“What would you do if my heart was torn in two”); the confession and the taking back; then Jane’s attempts at acting as if things were back to normal afterwards, only by showing her that he cared, yet hiding part of the truth from her. Unlike in the song, he didn’t try to make things better with love words, but he did try to placate her by saying that nothing was amiss (he had no feelings for Lorelei) and by giving Lisbon a blanket apology. But, like you said, those may very well be some mere coincidences, given that the lyrics are not that precise (they can match almost any situation involving heartbreak and someone willing to make amends, truth be told).

    Another interpretation is that “More Than Words” may allude to the fact that there’s more between them than meets the eye: their bond is deeper than people like Haffner, Stiles or even Bosco told Lisbon for instance. Even between the two of them there is a lot that is still unsaid.

    Moreover, that song as a favorite of Lisbon is pretty enlightening: this sweet and sad yet wistful tune is a reminder of the hopeless feelings she had harboured as a teenager towards an unnamed man (at least that was Jane’s guess), therefore it gave us a rare bout of information about her past –and maybe about her feelings for Jane, even though back then that moment was very probably meant as a way to tease the shippers… But more importantly it also allows a glimpse into her mind. Indeed, the song is symptomatic of her distrustful attitude towards love, may it be with Mashburn or even with her former fiancé, as she tends to place reason before feelings in her private life in a no nonsense perspective: “Saying I love you/ Is not the words I want to hear from you/ It’s not that I want you/ Not to say, but if you only knew/ How easy it would be to show me how you feel”. In other words, for her, acts or concrete facts seem to weight more than promises or beautiful declarations. With Mashburn, for instance, he told her he wanted to see her again and maybe start something, yet she knew he was a playboy, so he left him after a one-night stand; with Greg, he loved her and proposed to her, but she wished for a more independent life than marring him when she was still very young.
    Now, the most remarkable detail is that this attitude is precisely how she has been behaving with Jane when she implicitly but repeatedly asked him to show her that he was sincere instead of honeying his misbehavior with pretty lies. Indeed, she has spent years telling Jane that he needs to change his ways and tell her the truth instead of lying, then charming her into forgiving him; instead of asking her to just trust him, he needs to become more trustworthy (notably in the Lorelei fiasco): may it be about the truth, about trust or about feelings, he needs to “show” her that he means it -and that he’s worth it- instead of telling her to just follow blindly his lead. Indeed Lisbon did come along with most of his schemes, but deep down she didn’t really trust him, nor his actions and intentions… That whole “acts before words” attitude only started changing a bit when she has begun to open up to him more and called herself his partner.
    Furthermore, I can’t help but wonder if that proof of love the song is asking for wouldn’t also involve at some point him taking the right decision concerning his nemesis…

    (Sorry for rambling! I hope that makes at least a little bit of sense, I’m not sure I’m explaining very well what I mean… 😛 )

  • Rose UK

    You’re so right, Violet. Jane’s whole “thing” is words – he’s been a silver-tongued manipulator for much of his life (like Styles, like Sean Barlow, like RJ), and language has always been one of his main tools for charming, convincing and tricking people. No wonder Lisbon has found it hard to trust what comes out of his mouth, being so opposite herself. She doesn’t say a lot (relative to her actions, or other people), but what she does say is generally honest and direct.

    Very nice interpretation! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Sorry, meant to address my previous comment to Phoenixx too!

  • phoenixx

    Thanks Violet and Rose for your takes on the song and it made me even more certain it wasn’t a coincidence.

    BTW for everyone who wants to know and didn’t, Simon Baker is on Instagram (snappytoes) posting photos there, also the account of starbucci is amazing, she posts lots of BTS pics from previous seasons as well as new ones!

  • Rose UK

    😀

    Ok, I wasn’t going to look because I’m that freaked out about spoilers, but then I couldn’t resist… Four words: CBI Ron! CBI Carl! Also, Owain Yeoman looks as if he’s good fun. 😉 And of course I love the beautiful pics of RT and SB.

    Let the countdown begin!

  • phoenixx

    @Rose: Yes the set pics are so awesome. But also Simon’s are great, he really is a good photographer. Also Simon seems to be reading the comments left on his pics. He answered on one. That must be really weird for him, so many comments ask him about Jisbon, not to mention what they say to him…it’s embarassing xD

  • phoenixx

    Well Violet looks like your “7 Heads” theory could actually be true. Jordan Harpers episode this season is called “The Great Red Dragon” which is a painting by none other than William Blake. Quite interesting ->

    http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/Collection/highlights/highlight11502.html

  • suzjazz

    I’m stating the obvious here, but this is definitely intentional! Fascinating! Blake was gifted as an artist as well as a poet. On another subject: I have a new chapter in my fanfic, “No Exit,” which does contain some spoilers based on the sneak peek of the new season which of course I was unable to resist watching, junkie that I am. It doesn’t give away anything major, but if you want to enter the new season pure and innocent, you might not want to read it yet. It’s my best fanfic writing yet.

  • anomalycommenter

    Great analysis about the “More Than Words” song, Phoenix, Violet, and Rose UK. Also very nice instagram photos. Oh, and now this Mentalist conspiracy theory addict has the impossible task of finding out who exactly was that “mean, cold hearted guy” that Lisbon “used to worship from afar, but never talked to”, on his hands. 🙂

    Oh, I really don’t know what to do Suzjazz. I’m very eager to read the rest of your great fanfic, but I’ve consumed my entire tolerable dose of new season spoilers. Thank you for it, definitely would read it after the premiere episode. 🙂

    Speaking of spoilers, Americ from youtube HappyCool channel has shared his impressions after watching the premiere; yes it’s not fair, before the rest of us! No real spoilers in it. Watching it is really, totally, absolutely recommended to everybody but those who may prefer to remain completely pure and innocent as Suzjazz put it. Believe me, it’s the ultimate teaser:

    I also have to say a much delayed your welcome to Violet, and that it’s indeed me that is looking forward to see more of your really insightful thoughts next season, KM and Violet. 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Oh my goodness, you people are killing me. Trying my best to remain pure (the ‘white rose’ approach, eh? 😉 ), but oooh it’s tempting! Just as well that one of my favourite season 4 episodes has just re-aired on TV here: Cheap Burgundy. Nearly all the elements of a classic, present and correct:

    – comedy car conversations
    – uncomfortable truths uncovered
    – Jane rattled (and telling the truth!)
    – clever linguistic manipulation
    – Lisbon whacking Jane
    – literary references
    – comedy ‘old married couple’ bickering and
    – “I missed you”. Aw.

    *prays for more of the same from season 6*

  • phoenixx

    SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER or not so much, really it’s Simon trolling, regarding Jisbon:

    Are we finally getting the good stuff on The Mentalist this season? And by “good stuff,” I totally mean the Jane/Lisbon relationship. –Katherine
    I answered a similar Q last week, but have since come upon this bit of Simon Baker gold that’s too good not to share. As he puts it, “Like any relationship that’s put into a pressure situation, the relationship tends to suffer a little duress… and there’s always the question of what’s there when they climb off the trapeze, off the high wire, when they’re on solid terra firma and there is no dust to settle or anything, no obstacle or hurdle…. Do they look at each other and go ‘Jesus, you’re annoying’ or do they look at each other and go, ‘Let’s lay down and make love’?” (Ed. Note: For the record, some are known to do it standing up.)

    http://tvline.com/2013/09/26/castle-spoilers-beckett-returns-to-12th-precinct/

    Can I just…I mean the first option isn’t one…GOD I LOVE Simon and his way of putting things!!!!!

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, sorry Rose UK, I promise not to make it any harder for you. Certainly, we all like to preserve the season 6 Mentalist whiteboards of our minds spotless. ‘Cause you’re right that if it gets spoiled, all great Neptune’s ocean won’t wash the stain clean from it! By all means stay a white Rose! 🙂

    @ Phoenixx: Trying hard not to read your spoiler till after the premiere, will it be ok then? 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Haha – I see what you’ve done there, Anomaly! Very nice. 😉

  • suzjazz

    @phoenixx (re SB quote)

    Ha! This says nothing at all. BH and SB are both masters of evasion.
    Why don’t they just say they can’t answer the question instead of giving the Jisbonites false hopes? All SB said essentially was: “maybe, maybe not.” He just said it in a way that was meant to be charming.

    I see nothing new revealed (and therefore no spoiler) by SB in the quote from tvline.com. In fact, I find this kind of statement annoying. I have resigned myself to no Jisbon, so if anything does occur, I will be pleasantly surprised. I have no hopes to be dashed.
    I know I sound bitter like the crotchety old lady I have become, but I would love Jisbon to happen so much and I see very little evidence that it will.

  • suzjazz

    One more thing: Question: There’s a “Mentalista” T shirt for sale on some website (can’t remember but never heard of it) It’s $15. I’d love one but I don’t know if the site is legit. Can anyone enlighten me?

  • III Frogs

    I ordered one a few days ago, suzjazz. Site acted normally and looked legit to me. Shirt’s not here yet, so can’t say for sure.

  • III Frogs

    oops. @suszjazz Just got a cancellation on my T-shirt, said not enough interest for the mfgr to produce. Crediting back my payment.

  • Lou Ann

    cafepress.com lets you design your own t-shirt and they are an excellent company. Twice i’ve ordered the wrong size for a gift and they replace it without asking for the wrong one back. Their standard response is: we just want our customers to be happy with their merchandise.

  • C Hill

    Rose, Cheap Burgundy is a favorite of mine, too. Really well written and, for those who enjoy, a very heavy Jisbon episode. The smirk Tunney pulls off after getting the call from Jane requesting her help is priceless.

    I’ve seen some spoilers but stayed away from heavier spoilers after the media got to see episode one.

    A few random thoughts:

    1) The list of episode names is interesting. Probably too spoilery to discuss, but interesting.
    2) Some shows have been sneaky and showed the press a finale or premier with a different ending than what is broadcast…
    3) It’s going to be a real roller coaster I think. Wait for the end of the ride! 🙂
    4) I’d love to see a scene with apples and blueberry muffins at some point…

  • anomalycommenter

    Very interesting, didn’t know that they might go to such lengths to mislead the press! 🙂 Great points, and let’s not forget donuts, especially in the evenings! Also Lisbon’s reaction and Jane’s defensive answers about Darcy accusing him of working with/for RJ were for some reason very interesting for me! Oh, and yet another mention of alcohol (wine) in the show! (Did you know that Summer is the third person we know of who drinks Bloody Mary?)

    With or without a mentalist themed t-shirt, happy new season Mentalistas! 🙂

  • C Hill

    i had not thought about the bloody mary angle, anomaly…

  • C Hill

    well, angle, i don’t know is the best term. but i’ve been looking for “coincidences” both in actions and in dialog.

  • Auli

    Hi guys! Didyouseeitdidyouseeit?! Oh. My. God. Bruno Heller is a wonderful evil genious who gave me such feels and heart attacks during the season premier. Can´t wait to discuss about it with you!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Oh, guy, I did see it. Just like you I can’t wait discuss this. I have some impressions and realized a clue that I can’t tell right now because the spoilers’ phobic can kill me and I’m already about to die with this episode and have to wait by Monday. I was missing this chat and dying for Reviewbrain’s review.

    Still alive, but breathing hard, Carla

  • Rose UK

    Arrrrrghhhhh!!! Your excitement is infectious, Auli & Carla! Deadlines, deadlines, but all I want to do is watch Mentalist. Stupid work. (Sigh.) 😉

  • suzjazz

    I did watch it and I almost had a heart attack too. I’m not saying a word otherwise–I don’t want to spoil it for those who have not yet seen it. But it was a great, great episode, and I am dying to discuss it. I’ll take my cue from Reviewbrain or violet before posting anything about it.

  • Rose UK

    Too good. TOO GOOD! Next week can’t come soon enough!

  • Lou Ann

    My two cents: Holy Sh……! I’ve got something to mention, too, but will keep mum till RB or V can post. They probably have seen soooo much more than I have.

  • anomalycommenter

    Is this a hospital? Huh, just a heart attack and stroke combined. Why do people sleep? Why do people go to work? What is the meaning of anything? Oh, hello, Leonardo! What a beautiful island it is. Hi, Kristina! Is this ward C? What is wrong with this door? Patrick can you tell me how to pick the lock on this door? What? You’re in de… What?

  • suzjazz

    @anomaly: lol at your last comment. And I must echo Lou Ann’s comment: “Holy sh–!” and add about a dozen or so exclamation points.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Hey, what are talking about? Have gotten nuts yet? Translate this for me, please.

  • Rose UK

    Poor Anomaly! Somebody get the man a drink! (Or perhaps some strong smelling salts) 😉

    Carla… Vou tentar explicar um pouco… Desculpe o meu portugués! O pobre Anomaly ficou tão esmagado pelo episódio que agora é totalmente disorientado. 😉 Está a questionar tudo; está numa crise existencial… O pobre. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Pretty much Carla, pretty much! Happy to be of service, Suzjazz and thanks a lot Rose UK! I think I myself did not take the advice Americ gave us in his advance review video I linked to above, seriously. I even started to doubt his words. But I was wrong! Big time! I, too, nearly had a heart attack, and still do not feel well. Tonight’s sleep, and tomorrows work is screwed for sure! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    Hahahaha!Poor Anomaly! I’m not crazy yet. I will, I know it, by Monday. Why the hell this have to be weekly? To drive us crazy?! Hahaha!

  • phoenixx

    @anomaly: Well like I said it’s not that Spoilery really since it’s a “Statement” but some People don’t even want to read that 😉 It’s SB saying something about the Jisbon relationship but not like “This will happen in this Episode” 😉 So….

    @sujazz: Well I see your Point but SB has actually never really talked much about it and there really is only one way to go cause they definitely not gonna go “Oh my god I actually hate you”. And BH’s overall interviews now have also stated it pretty clearly how they feel and gonna feel later, there was a new one from after the Episode where he even mentioned what the thing that happened at the end will make Jane realize what Lisbon means to him.

    To the Episode itself, well “Holy sh…” is pretty accurate. Although I thought it could happen what happened I definitely hadn’t expected THAT.
    BTW there are People I could actually strangle for what they say about Lisbon, honestly, some People seem to need it all spelled out for them or otherwise they miss the subtle things and why a character is driven to do what he does.

  • Auli

    @Phoenixx: Hear hear! I don’t want to go into details until the review of that episode is out but after looking some of the comments about Lisbon or Van Pelt I now understand why quite many of the tvshows are done like the audience are deaf-blind idiots who can’t count 1+1 and suffer from memory loss.

  • suzjazz

    There is a new interview with Heller–I don’t have the link–but it contains some interesting spoiler-y stuff. leads me to believe there may be Jisbon after all.

  • phoenixx

    @sujazz: Told you so 😉

    @Auli: Exactly!

  • anomalycommenter

    @ Phoenixx: True, I guess I’ve learned it the hard way not knowing enough side info is sometimes not very healthy! But I suppose heart attacks, too, (of course not literally 🙂 ) are part of the drama experience. The general argument is that if it’s good art, it should not be very illogical to think that maybe it’s better to be experienced the way it’s meant to be experienced. Though I accept sometimes that can be a very dangerous approach! And yes, not very much applicable to this case, cause it’s true that many of the spoilers are coming from the official sources, and so are their “statements”. So at the end, the main parameter is people’s personal preferences. Oh, and by the way great spoiler, thank you!

    I confess that after …, it went black for me, “deaf and blind” and with no meaningful brain function I was not able of logical thought for the better part of the next day, too. (Well, maybe not that dramatic or rather that unusual 🙂 ), so … till we can talk about it.

    @ Carla: Thank goodness (if we can still believe in that), it’s not two or three weeks! Torture is supposed to be illegal! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you, Phoenixx! Much as I try to be moderate, still I’m under moderation! 🙂

    @Carla: You’re right. That seems to be the (that is their) plan! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    Today is Thursday yet. How many hours have each day in this week? What a endless week! I hope Reviewbrain’s review doesn’t take too long to come out.

  • anomalycommenter

    Quite right! I too hope so. Yet I suppose that writing a review of the quality she and Violet write take a good amount of time, and a week’s time between episodes seems to be too little to do that properly. So I would be quite happy and very grateful to them even if they manage to write mini reviews or delayed ones. 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Heh, Carla, that made me chuckle. Funny how one week suddenly seems far more interminable than the entire summer hiatus. 😉

    @ Suz & others: I obviously won’t mind J & L getting together, but I hope to god they stick to form and do it subtly and with a bit of class because I don’t think I could stand a descent into cheesy, soapy nonsense. Oof. (Um, no offence to anyone who likes cheesy soapiness; I just have very sensitive cringe receptors for that sort of stuff!)

    @ Auli & Phoenixx: I’m sensing your passion! I’ve got a sneaking suspicion, however, that at least one of my two (very small, easily rationalised) quibbles might put me in the deaf-blind idiot category, lol. 😉

  • suzjazz

    @Rose: I don’t think we have to fear any cheesy soapy nonsense from Bruno and the other writers. It will be classy, I have no doubt (if it occurs.)
    @phoenixx: “And BH’s overall interviews now have also stated it pretty clearly how they feel and gonna feel later, there was a new one from after the Episode where he even mentioned what the thing that happened at the end will make Jane realize what Lisbon means to him.” Are you talking about the end of the premiere or the end of the series? Because if something happens to Lisbon at the end of the series, I’m praying it’s not her death (that will make him realize too late what she means to him.)

    I don’t know about you, folks, but I am super worried about Lisbon in future episodes. And I have a fearful sense that the series will not have a happy ending. After all, it’s always been dark and getting darker. Mind you, this fear isn’t based on any spoilers–it’s just me and my mind.

  • Rose UK

    Aw, fear not, Suz! It will all come right in the end, I’m sure. The series has been dark, true, but also tempered with light (can’t have one without the other!) and I personally have faith in Bruno and his redemption story. Not saying he won’t go very dark along the way, but at least this isn’t The Walking Dead, or something, where they kill off main cast members every time you blink. 😉 Plus Lisbon’s much too kick-ass to kill off. 😉

    And you’re right – it *would* be classy. What was I thinking. Momentary panic over. 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    I’m the most one against cheesy stuff in the world. TM is not cheesy, never was. Rigspelt (this term is cheesy!) is not cheesy. J & L can’t be never cheesy I’m sure. It’s because of this I want them to get together so much. It will be funny, Lisbon hates cheesy stuff, even dresses and they have already a so beautiful relationship, very little would change, I think, them like a couple. Only my opinion.

  • HLL

    I also came up with the idea for potential symbolism of the 7 Deadly Sins in The Mentalist, and was curious to see if anyone else had thought this, too, so thank you for your input on that. But I think as such, it signals that NONE of these 7 are Red John — who so far hasn’t let any weakness be his undoing, not that he possesses ANY virtues whatsoever, obviously. But safe to say, I think each one of these characters will find their undoing in their “deadly sin.” I agree with STILES=PRIDE, but not sure about others, could be debated, though I like your point of view. It was different from mine. I tied MCALLISTER=SLOTH having just watched him in the first season where we first meet him, he was slow and lazy in his job, not exactly following instincts or leads, not really doing his job. [Remember, he “almost” followed that black truck?]. I think HAFFNER=LUST. Of all the men on the list, I think he’s most interested in seeming attractive to women. He pretty much came on to Libson, and made an effort to “steal” her from Jane BUT I think GREED could also apply since he mentions money a lot. Except that BERTRAM seems the most motivated by cash. But I agree that GLUTTONY could apply to him, also. I tied SMITH=GLUTTONY since he was obviously obsess, but definitely SMITH=WRATH fits, too, maybe even better, so perhaps GLUTTONY does =BERTRAM. And yes, ENVY could be PARTRIDGE, but I realize now, so could LUST=PARTRIDGE [blood lust], leaving ENVY for Kirkland. I see you have GREEDY for Kirkland, and he is, but if he’s not RJ and he’s not connected to RJ — then he is in severe competition with JANE and the CBI to get at RJ first, stopping at nothing ENVY.

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