Mentalist Behind the Red Curtain (mini) Review


Note: I wanted to give my lovely, lovely partner Violet a break but as I’m swamped I could only churn out this mini-review from memory. Warning: unedited! Thank god for all you fantastic readers, I’ve no doubt you’ll let me know if anything is *too* off base 😉

Synopsis

When a young actress falls to her death in Sacramento, CBI Agent Teresa Lisbon (Tunney) calls in her consultant Patrick Jane (Baker). Unhappy with being dragged from the hospital where he is waiting for Lennon(Christopher Cousins) a vital witness in the Red John case, to wake up from his coma, Jane charms a nurse to call him as soon as Lennon wakes up, hoping to question him before Homeland security’s Agent Kirkland (Kevin Corrigan).

Concise Verdict

Star power doesn’t make an episode. But when coupled with the humor of writer Erica Green Swafford and poignancy of Eoghan Mahoney scripts, it’s a sure recipe for a winner. Well played. Hope no legs were broken in this one.

Detailed (not so humungous) Review

Some points to ponder…

Jane/Lisbon

“You’re creeping around Lennon getting into Kirkland’s business. Of course I’m glum.”

-Loaded statement right there. I like the continuity of Lisbon’s trust for Kirkland. Might this subtext be the reason for Jane’s later statement?

When Jane tells her he needs to talk to Lennon, Lisbon replies that he needs to follow the rules for a while, adding: “If you must break the rules break them on your own time.”

Jane then replies: “When am I not on my own time?”

-Ouch. Ouch, ouch, ouch. The reason the little jab hurts is it’s kinda actually true. Jane is a consultant. I don’t know if he gets paid by the case or by the hour but freelancers aren’t usually subject to the same stringent rules as regular employees. Also, somehow the way Baker read the line also felt like a veiled threat: stop bugging me or I’ll quit. Not that he’d ever do so, of course…

Rispelt

Image by Chizuruchibi. Copyright Reviewbrain April, 2013. Not to be used without permission.

Image by Chizuruchibi. Copyright Reviewbrain April, 2013. Not to be used without permission.

The fact that Rigsby didn’t hug Van Pelt when she returned to work after her trip is a real tip off on his (back in full force ) crush; he’s trying to hide it (not so successfully) by keeping a professional distance. Heck, even Lisbon hugged her! Which , by the way, was lovely continuity to how close they have become.

Kirkland is RJ?

When Lennon wakes up from his coma, the first question Kirkland asks him is:

“You recognize me? You ever seen me before?”

Lennon replies: “No.”

Does this mean that, while Lennon worked for RJ, he never had actual contact with him? If that’s the case then why did Lorelie have to shoot him? I’m inclined to think that she thought that she was protecting Jane; by going after RJ herself.

But then why would Kirkland need to ask Lennon if he recognizes him? Was he worried that Lorelie might have revealed RJ’s identity to Lennon before she shot him? Maybe, as she was interrogating him to find out if RJ did in fact order her sister’s death?

Kirkland then tells him that he’s doing him a favor by killing him “I just hope that if I am ever in your shoes I have a friend close enough to do the same for me.”

-I doubt  (RJ?) is being serious here, but if he is Jane might want to reconsider killing him when he catches him. Having him rot in jail would probably be an infinitely worse punishment.

When Jane shows up, Lennon is already dying and he looks at Kirkland suspiciously. I wonder if this doubt is new or if was always there? Could that be the reason behind his (biting?) tone after Lisbon told him to leave Kirkland to his job? Or, if he just resented Lisbon’s friendship with Kirkland (i.e. tone when he said “you’re new best friend” in Red Sails in the Sunset”) and the suspicion is new, how will it affect his friendship with Lisbon?

I think Kirkland is to Lisbon as Lorelie was to Jane. But with one major difference. While Lorelie was a known criminal that Lisbon resented Jane’s interaction with for so many justifiable reasons, Jane doesn’t have more than his gut when it comes to any suspicion he might have of Kirkland. Jane didn’t believe Lisbon’s suspicions that Lorelie was playing him. She turned out to be right. Would Lisbon believe Jane if he warns her about Kirkland? We saw her reaction when she defended the FBI in this year’s premiere. She told Jane she wanted to believe in something without always being suspicious. Does that desire still exist? Does she have another reason to want to believe Kirkland? An attraction to him maybe?

I remember one commenter (who are you?!) stated that maybe RJ wants to get back at Jane for turning Lorelie by getting close to Lisbon. If Kirkland is in fact RJ, then you were really on to something!

Can’t wait to read your comments! In the meantime, here’s the rest of the review:

Icings on the Cake

Ron got a line! Ron got a line!!!

Donna Murphy. Beautiful, beautiful, talented Donna Murphy.

Co-written episode. A combo of fantastic writers.

La Roche! This was my reaction when I saw him/figured out Jane would ask for his help: HEEE!!!!!!!!

Best Quotes

“That’s my arm you have two of your own.” –Jane, to security/homeland security guy kicking him out of the hostpital.

“I don’t know how anyone lives there.” Grace, to Rigsby on LA. Bet the actors got a kick out of that line.

“I know you’re only talking to me to get information out of me but its been nice. You make me smile.”-Aww!

“She would if you told her the truth.” –Jane, on Lisbon. Nice continuity; shows Jane knows Lisbon enough to know that she more likely to understand/support him if he shares information with her. Took him long enough to figure out…

“What is it that every foster child is looking for?” –Jane. So sad but true. Kids want their parents.

“Trust me you’ll have fun. Was there ever a more suspicious phrase?” LaRoche, to Jane.

“J.J. You have to live a little. You spend your days chasing paper clip fees. When do you ever get the chance to nail a killer.” –Jane, to LaRoche.

“Would an accent help?” LaRoche, to Jane, practicing his role.

“Excuse me, your coat is playing the 5th symphony.” –LaRoche to perp.

 

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458 responses to “Mentalist Behind the Red Curtain (mini) Review

  • Ifrah

    This is such an amazing review! I agree with this 100%, it was an incredible episode, but I would add the line when Jane said, “Sorry Mr.Dodge can’t come to the phone right now, he’s a little busy getting arrested.” to the best quotes. Loved the ending, I’ve always suspected Kirkland when the start, but he may possibly be an RJ mole, but Ron may be Red John.

  • Auli

    A spot on review! I just have a comment about Kirkland. I know he would be perfect for being RJ or one of his moles but I’d be somehow disappointed about it. It would be too easy and way too obvious. Therefore I’m in total denial and choose to believe that the writers will have something special about Kirkland in their sleeve. Maybe he is some sort of vigilante like Jane?
    And oh, I was so happy that wonderfully awkward LaRoche was back and Jane called him J.J! It cracked me up.

  • Mosquitoinuk

    Hello reviewbrain! Thank you ever so much for the effort that you (and Violet) put onto this blog.

    One thing I wanted to mention is how strained Lisbon and Jane’s relationship seemed. Besides the charged exchanges you previously mentioned, Jane worked with Rigsby or alone (mostly), less with Lisbon on this episode and they seemed almost to avoid each other. This is a clear indication that not all is well after (yet) another debacle related to Lorelei; in fact, Lisbon said as much to Jane during their conversation, something like “we looked bad after Lorelei’s case” when telling Jane off for obsessing and interfering in Kirkland’s business.

    I found the case of the week mildly interesting because of course, my atention was focussed on the hospital. What was that with Kirkland? Why did he ask Lennon if he recognised him? I do not have another explanation but that Kirkland is RJ and as reviewbrain very well speculates, he wants to know if the not-so-comatose man recognises him. Lennon does not recognise him, which means Kirkland would be out of the hook….then, if he is RJ, why risking it by killing the man himself? Why not sending one of his minions? Not his M.O at all. There is something very odd in all this. Something is off and I don’t know what…

    Very creepy how he was killing the man and trying to convince him it was an act of kindness. Is this man (Kirkland) RJ? I must confess I’d be disappointed if that were the case: I imagine Red John as a charmer, not creepy, a bit like Jane in fact, only creepy if he wants to be. Of course, it could be argued that *we* see him as creepy as we’ve witnessed stuff that was either confidential or downright wicked (in the car, the first time we saw him, asking Alexa to ask the CBI to keep an eye on Jane, or now killing Lennon) but the fact is that the nurse that was keeping an eye on Lennon for Jane thought that Kirkland was really creepy. At this point I must confess, I’m really confused by this man because I don’t see how he could instill fanatic devotion from his following, but again, we know very little about him. Perhaps he has lots of charm and charisma hidden somewhere. I don’t see him so far as a match to Jane.

    Final thought: during that dialog, because of the way it was filmed and the camera angle, when Kirkland asked “do you know who I am” he was talking to us. Not teasing us viewers at all with that scene. I don’t know, we still have season 6 to go, I don’t think they would have given us a huge RJ indication like that now. Nevermind, as you can tell, I am really confused.

    Anyway, end of a long and rambling discussion on my part and truly looking frward to the comments!

  • P

    I don’t believe Kirkland is Red John or a minion. I think he is possibly seeking vengeance of his own (like Jane) or, more likely, he is actually working his own plan to get RJ (with Bertram). Perhaps he is some type of double agent…Red John believes him to be a minion, but in reality he is working to bring down RJ and his entire organization. Perhaps that is why he killed Lennon – to keep his cover from being blown. If RJ thinks Kirkland works for him, he would likely order Kirkland to kill Lennon. Kirkland would need to do so to keep RJ from getting suspicious. That could also explain why he asked if he recognized him: he needed to know if Lennon had seen something he shouldn’t have and reported it to RJ.

    He may want not just RJ, but the entire organization- and he may not yet have all the information and evidence he needs to do that. He may know who RJ is (thus not trying to get Lennon to reveal it) but can’t act on it yet.

    This could also explain the Bertram / Kirkland conversation about whether they could trust Lisbon. Perhaps they are considering bringing her into their plan, but need to know where her loyalties lie.

    I could be way off base, but to have Kirkland be yet another minion right after killing off the last one seems really repetitive. And since the show has been renewed, I don’t know how they would drag the Kirkland is RJ story out for the rest of this season and all of next season. Plus, i just find my theory more interesting 🙂

  • Julie

    Thanks for the taking the time out of your busy schedule to review. I enjoyed the episode. Laughed out loud when LaRoache appeared dressed as the ‘investor’. Next time I watch I will have to look at the others reactions because it seemed like Jane hadn’t told them.

    My money is that Kirkland isn’t Red John. I don’t want to know before Jane does. I wonder if it is something a bit different with him. no idea what though. I can’t understand Lisbon’s trust of Kirkland after all they have experienced, she should question just a little especially since he didn’t answere what his interest in the case is. Hoping she is suspicious now.

  • valentinasweet

    hi, I always read this blog and find it nothing short of fantastic, the reviews are done really well and help me a lot to understand the behavior of the various characters, so thank you very much for the work you do, you are really precious, I also wanted to add one thing, the episode was great, I loved it, but you can explained a thing?
    when Lisbon told Jane
    “You must not get in the way the affairs of kirkland, of course I’m glum”

    Jane says, “ah ….. that”
    Lisbon: “yes that”

    and then the phrase of Lisbon if he wants to break the rules he can do in his spare time, then when Jane responds to Lisbon that he does and then goes away, it seemed to me that look “bad” in the sense that I felt that he was angry with Lisbon, instill he has always known that Lisbon is in force the rules, then why this bad reply?
    surely you’ve picked up more than I do, so you’ll explain a little step by step this scene?

    sorry for my english,i am not good….i am italian ^^”
    thank you

  • anomalycommenter

    Very nice thoughts Mosquitoinuk! I just want to add that this strained relationship is in contrast with the somewhat relaxed relationship they had in the last episode. I think that others have mentioned this before, but sometimes it seems that we have different copies of Jane and Lisbon living in different parallel universes! I love this show, but it’s as though (and I hate to say this) that many things in the show can be better interpreted outside of the world of the show and with some information about the production conditions, like less than ideal collaboration (from our high expectations) among writers. And it’s sad, but I suspect that the totally ambiguous things that Kirkland said were a direct result of the uncertain fate of the show at the time of the production of this episode.

    But one thing is clear to me, that it was of no use to Kirkland to lie to a man he is going kill in a minute, so as much as what he said was ambiguous it must also be true. Unless we accept that he was talking to us, but wouldn’t that be bad writing?

    And one last thing is that as much as Lisbon had trust in Kirkland, which is strange considering her last talk with Bertram and knowing that Bertram and Kirkland are collaborating closely, we saw that they too wanted to confide in her (in ‘There Will Be Blood’). So despite all the creepiness at the end of this episode it is not very likely, IMHO, that Kirkland is Red John.

    More later. And thank you Reviewbrain very, very much!

  • donnamour1969

    I have a slightly different interpretation of Jane’s comment about always being on his own time. I think his attitude was more melancholy than warning. His entire existence is for the pursuit of Red John. That’s all he ever thinks about, so all of his time is actually devoted to that pursuit. Also, he feels somewhat alone in this, especially with Lisbon defending Kirkland and still angry about Lorelei.

  • Arco

    Much happiness–LaRoche is back–& supposed to appear again in a later episode this season! I think that J.J. did enjoy his foray into the theatrical world. I don’t believe that J.J. is Red John or an RJ minion. I think that he’s just trying to do his job–sussing out “paper clip thieves.”

    I don’t think that Kirkland is affiliated with RJ either–no evidence, just what I think–maybe what Auli said, that Kirkland could be a vigilante. It seemed to me that Lisbon isn’t so friendly with Bob anymore–but no explanation why. Maybe she didn’t enjoy having coffee with him. This is the first we’ve seen that Kirkland is close to Bertram, & I’m sure that made Lisbon wonder about Kirkland–that despite their working closely on the Lorelei case, Bob has gone behind her back instead of talking to her one-on-one. It looks as if Bertram & Kirkland know each other so well that Bertram says that Kirkland doesn’t trust anyone.

    I have no idea what’s going on with Kirkland quizzing Lennon on whether Lennon recognized him. Kirkland has had the same appearance for 10 years, from the time that Jane was hired. The other possibility is that this Bob isn’t the original Bob but had plastic surgery & took over the original Bob’s life. The reason that I even entertained this possibility was because of the nurse remarking about the FBI guys wearing a mask when a lizard alien was really underneath, something like that. I took that as there’s something different beneath the surface of Kirkland–of course, it might be just that it’s metaphorical–that Bob’s a bad guy masquerading as a good guy.

    Jane seems to be angry with Lisbon–because she’s trying to go by the rules? Well, that’s Lisbon’s default mode. She said that she was trying to get the case back, but she’s outgunned by the FBI & Homeland Security. I don’t know what Jane expects that she can do about that. Frankly, I know that you should stick with your friends through thick & thin, but Jane makes it difficult to be his friend. I would certainly have defriended him by now. Lisbon needs to at least stick up for herself instead of letting Jane manipulate & lie to her (keeping 70 percent of what you know away from your partner would qualify, in my book, as lies of omission).

    To me, Jane is inconsistent. He told Lisbon, when they were in the crate in the episode that I refer to as the Mexican goat boy episode, that he would always save her. Then he runs off to Vegas for six months. There are criminals other than Red John; how was he going to do anything for Lisbon while he was gone? Then he is teaching her his tricks because he’s not always going to be around–so who’s going to save her then? And where is he going (I thought that Lisbon should have asked about that)–he thinks that Red John will kill him?

    Thanks for reviewing, reviewbrain. I always enjoy your comments.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think I got stupid. I think I got stupid. I could not see sympathy or confidence from Lisbon to Kirkland when she says : You must not get in the way the affairs of kirkland, of course I’m glum. When she said: “we looked bad after Lorelei’s case”,she explained everything. She was worried about getting in more trouble with Homeland Security. Jane was worried about being targeted more closely by Kirkland, since all suspicious of Jane’s involvement in the escape from prison of Lorelei and the mess she pitched. I did not understand the angry response to Jane for her too, but he had reason quererficar near Lennon and she should know because she questioned the interest of Homeland Security in this case. Correct me if I’m getting really stupid.

  • mosquitoinuk

    ” I don’t want to know before Jane does.”–> THIS. Absolutely. I think either he will find ahead of us or we will all find out at the same time, which would be quite cool actually. “Us” as part of the team that will chase RJ would be great fun.

    I also agree with you that Kirkland isn’t RJ, but I have a hard time justifying what he did or who he is (or works for?) and the meaning of his scene with Lennon is still a mystery to me.

  • mosquitoinuk

    Hi donnamour, I interpreted that in a totally different way: I thought Jane was quite defiant and rather antagonistic (I don’t want to use the word “hostile” but…). This scene is the one that I understood as showing the true state of their partnership right now: they are at odds, their conflict is evident and they seem to be at a point where they feel rather annoyed by each other.

  • mosquitoinuk

    I think that scene not only showed how at odds they are with each other on the RJ case, it shows that Lisbon is keeping her head down and not helping Jane, which he doesn’t take kindly. Also, there is the little mater of their exchange in the house on Orchid Lane, Jane lying to Lisbon, Lisbon almost loosing it…I mean, it is becoming messy. Right now, things are truly complicated for these two. I believe that part of the discomfort they feel right now has to do with their own messy feelings for each other (not saying in which capacity, although a romantic interest could very well be a possibility). If the case is that they’re under stress *also* because of what they might feel for each other (meaning, they might be drifting away from the comfortable “friends” territory), that makes all the relationship difficult.

    My two cents anyway!

  • Lou Ann

    Thank you for a great review, and hope your life is soon less hectic. The first two times I watched the final scene, when Kirkland murdered Lennon, I was transfixed. It wasn’t until a third time that it dawned on me that there was no logical reason I could think of for him to kill someone who did NOT recognize him. So I am anxious to have that mystery resolved, as I hope will happen, but sometimes never does with this show. Sometimes we are just called upon to take things on faith.

    Something else that I just can’t figure out is the implication behind the fact that Kirkland is from Department of Homeland Security, not FBI. Does anyone remember if that was explained in an earlier episode? I looked up DHS on their web site. Their mission is to protect the USA from terrorist attacks, natural disasters, and man-made accidents. What does that mean we are supposed to conclude about RJ? Is he an American bin Laden? If so, he certainly has grown in stature since Season 1.

    Or is it just that Kirkland is a person in a powerful government position who can therefore use that for his own nefarious purposes, unrelated to the specifics of the mission of the DHS? No one in the CBI or FBI seems to be able to question Kirkland’s authority to take control of witnesses or suspects.

    I look forward to seeing everyone’s ideas.

  • Arco

    The explanation (someone else’s, not mine) that makes sense to me about why Kirkland killed Lennon when Lennon didn’t recognize him was that Kirkland intended to kill Lennon all along but waited until Lennon woke up so that Kirkland could find out if Lennon had told Lorelei or Jane that he recognized Kirkland.

    The way I understand it, Homeland Security has rather sweeping powers & can pretty much get involved in any case without explanation. Lisbon tried to find out what the interest in the Red John case was but got a nonanswer from Kirkland.

  • III Frogs

    Thanks for great review! Rushed is always better than none and it’s terrific the way you get the conversation started.

    Something I’ve kind of puzzled out and discussed in other places . . . Kirkland must know the identity of Red John. He’s supposed to be pursuing him. Yet when he wakes Lennon up, he doesn’t try to get Red John’s identity from Lennon, like Jane would. He’s only concerned whether Lennon recognizes him. Then he kills Lennon! Why would he do that unless he already knows who Red John is? It still doesn’t clue me in whether Kirkland is good or bad, very complex, that.

  • reviewbrain

    Not stupid! Your theory makes perfect sense! Lisbon is always worried about Jane making trouble with the higher ups. I just thought this case might be different because of the famous hair fluffing she had going before meeting Kirkland in her office. Now I’m nots sure what to think he is to her: just another bureaucrat who can get her in trouble, a friend she cares about, or a suspect because Jane doesn’t like him?

  • Carla Oliveira

    I agree when you say: “His entire existence is for the pursuit of Red John. That’s all he ever thinks about, so all of his time is actually devoted to that pursuit”.
    But I think he is angry, yes. She would agree with him that if he did not keep an eye on, he loses Lennon. But he has no right to feel alone. He just needs to be honest with her. And nice for a change. He has been bad with it, in my opinion.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Mosquitoinuk, I totaly agree. I felt the same.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Arco ,the reason for our not being friendly Lisbon and all her problems: Jane. She only cares about him lately. She has not had peace.
    You are right. Jane has been a good partner. I wanted her to see it soon. I’m sick of him.

  • donnamour1969

    This is the best theory I’ve heard regarding Kirkland. I hope you don’t mind if I adopt that theory 🙂 Thanks for sharing it!

  • mosquitoinuk

    P, this is a very sexy theory! I quite like it and in fact you might as well be on the money because Kirkland said to Lennon something like “I hope that if I am in your situation, a friend would do this to me” (killing him without pain). In fact, if RJ gets hold of Lennon, he might end up suffering, hence the more “humane” killing that Kirkland is explaining to Lennon. Very creepy still but this could be interpreted as more acceptable or compassionate.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think kirkland a serious candidate for RJ. He is smoothly scary to kill anyone: notice how he spent time chatting calmly Lennon, saying it was a favor to kill him. And the gaze of a psychopath?
    But if he want to conquer he is kind, friendly [as when he met Jane and Lisbon in the first (?) Time and even now when he meets Jane in the hospital before and after killing Lennon]. I do not know …

  • sabresue

    Mosquitoinuk, I agree. But I also think this is Jane’s comeback to Lisbon’s “threat” about “no longer being apart of this and neither will you if you want to remain on the team” comment in TWBB. In that instance Lisbon was saying “you know I can end this relationship right now if you don’t own up to what’s really going on.” I think she really hurt Jane. Now he’s basically saying the same thing. “Hey you know what, you’re not the only one here that can end this thing.” I think he meant to hurt her back. Folks I think these two had(are having) a “fight”. They are not seen together again until he appears out of the shadows in the theater. It’s funny the lyrics to the song she’s singing are “Everytime we say goodbye, I die.” I’m not sure where this is all leading. I think the lightheartedness in RW&B was just the left over adrenaline rush of as Lisbon put it “the whole Lorelei Martins mess.” I think we as well as those two are grappling with what the definition of their relationship is( at this time, with all that has happened). I think there are realizing its morphing into some new strange thing they really can’t get a handle on yet. I think the finale is going to either have them split up over it OR try to come to grips with it.

  • C Hill

    3 frogs:
    “Something I’ve kind of puzzled out and discussed in other places . . . Kirkland must know the identity of Red John. He’s supposed to be pursuing him. Yet when he wakes Lennon up, he doesn’t try to get Red John’s identity from Lennon, like Jane would. He’s only concerned whether Lennon recognizes him. Then he kills Lennon! Why would he do that unless he already knows who Red John is? It still doesn’t clue me in whether Kirkland is good or bad, very complex, that.”

    I agree in that it’s not clear, i think, if Kirkland is good or bad. However, i think the explanation about why Kirkland killed Lennon (i still go with Lenin :)) is that Lennon did know RJ and “for reasons of national security” no one else can know. It’s clearly early on, for some reason, whether that be a respect for Jane’s abilities or that he does know RJ, perhaps better than he realizes), Jane must be watched.

    I also go back to the various hints about RJ and Russia. Subtle, but there, especially in close up shots to books near Jane’s couch. And we’ve seen, thanks to Violet’s and others work, that books can be very good clues in Mentalist episodes.

    There is clearly strain with Jane and Lisbon, but I’m not sold on it being as dire as some. I think the idea (Carla?) that Lisbon is more concerned with supervisors (Bertram) and other agencies (FBI, DHS). Lisbon’s relationship with Kirkland I think has been a little frosty of late. And I think, with Lisbon, regarding Jane, we are seeing turbulence as certain feelings start coming to the surface.

    I do need to watch this episode again — it was very, very subtle in places I think.

  • mosquitoinuk

    Totally agree, I left a comment earlier on that actually reflects quite nicely what you are saying 🙂 this is getting interesting!

  • sabresue

    Yes,yes, yes! The exchange out on balcony with they way it was lighted etc.felt like we were listening in on an intimate “private” exchange between the two of them. It bobs & weaves back and forth personal/professional/personal and everything always ends up leading back to RJ. The present case is a veil. Everything about them is being defined by “Him-RJ.” Yes, very messy indeed.

  • zee

    Hello Reviewnbrain,

    Its awesome that you could grace the reviews again amidst swampy work!

    Since I’m more of the Red John arc fan, I find that if Kirkland is Red John it’s too obvious (and sad for me as I was quite taken by Bob!). As commentors have stated, ‘why would he ask Lennon if he knows him, then only to kill him?’

    I might sound like I’m defending Bob, but I think he is actually protecting Jane. Kirkland does not want Jane to find out any truth about Red John from Lennon, because I think Kirkland knows who RJ is and what he’s capable of.

    Which means, in Red Dawn, he want to keep tabs on Jane to make sure he doesn’t get close and hurt himself again. It wasn’t because he was bidding for RJ. Then, when Jane started to form a bond with RJ minion Lorelai, he immediately swooped down to CBI.

    Hell, I think when he first dropped by CBI to see Lisbon about Volker, it might just be possible that his real intent was to get Lisbon not to help Jane in his quest for RJ. That Volker case was somewhat trying to test her capabilities of seeking justice.

    So, if Bob is really looking out for Jane, why would he ask Lennon “Ya’ know me pal?” Probably meant as a hypothetical question. Kirkland is unsure what transpired between them before Lennon was shot. Whether or not Kirkland was known, Kirkland wants to make sure Jane stays safe from Red John.

    Thanks Reviewbrain! 🙂

  • sabresue

    mosquitoinuk..saw that “after” I replied to the above! You’re on the ball!

  • anomalycommenter

    Certainly the best theory I’ve heard so far! And if we accept that Kirkland was telling the truth, it also shows how much he fears what is behind the red curtain himself. He sees a bigger picture we may have to wait a year (or two) to comprehend!

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think you’re right. It’s a very nice theory

  • Girl6596

    I just thought of an idea, Maybe Kirkland was with Lorelei when she was torturing Lennon,In the house? Because Lorelei shot Lennon in his kitchen but he was in the living room when Jane entered? Surely Lorelei couldn’t move a heavy man like that! Just a theory!

  • Lou Ann

    That makes some sense of it. I suspect the writers are leading us down a (long and winding) garden path. I trust they will make the trek rewarding.

  • Rose UK

    Yep, agree with Mosquito and Sue! I was particularly taken with the scene in which Lisbon questions the leading lady at the piano – and Jane is already there, waiting in the shadows. She looks totally shocked, almost embarrassed, to see him and to realise he’s been listening in. She totally shuts up, looks at the floor. And she looks even more shocked when he says the line that ReviewBrain mentions – “she’ll understand if you explain.” It’s like he’s telling her that he gets it now, though he can’t do it directly, honestly, straightforwardly. I’m not sure he even addresses her at all. They’re not in ‘that place’ at the moment. It’s a strange scene; another one that feels bizarrely private.

  • Rose UK

    Can I bring up some points that I read on another forum – REALLY interesting ones, too!?

    Title: Behind the Red Curtain – another allusion to the Wizard of Oz and the man pulling the strings… And a whole lot of fascinating references to masks, concealment and deception:

    – the fact that the actors in the play were all playing roles when the victim was killed
    – La Roche in costume
    – the invented financial backer/murderer
    – the nurse saying that Kirkland looked like he was wearing a mask and underneath he could easily be an alien
    – the leading lady’s secret illness (appeared to be something else)

    And the poster also picked out this line “You all believed it was him, and it was easy to make you believe.”

    I wish these ideas were mine, but sadly my brain had to be told…! However, I thought they were great food for thought so I decided a bit of mini-plagiarism might be allowed in this case. 😉

  • III Frogs

    I’m never sure I understand what DHS’s jurisdiction is in the Red John case. Either it has to be issues of which we are unaware, or maybe it’s related to Red John’s infiltration into multiple agencies that DHS has some responsibility to coordinate. Either way, it’s a domestic agency and its actions are bound by the US Constitution. Kirkland has just murdered Lennon, an American on American soil, without his due process rights of being formally charged before a court. That has to make Kirkland a bad guy. I’m just not sure what kind of bad guy: Red John? Minion? Vigilante? When you think you’ve figured something out, it only opens up more questions. That’s part of the lure of The Mentalist!

  • III Frogs

    That’s a great catch Rose UK! Jane is actually telling the leading lady that Lisbon can handle the truth if she’ll just tell her — now if we can see that he’s learned this lesson himself!

  • Rose UK

    @ Arco: I was happy to see La Roche, too. Actually enjoying himself! I’ve posted before that I thought he kind of wanted to join ‘the gang’ all along, and now he’s been admitted into the inner sanctum of crazy schemes. They all secretly love it in the end… 😉 (Even buttoned-up Steiner, which was an episode I loved because Jane took a sad and lonely man under his wing and gave him something very special). It’s shaping up to be a very cool team!!

  • rita

    Thank you for another very good review, it is great that you were able to come up with such an in depth analysis even though your time is limited.

    I enjoyed the episode….I have to admit….mainly for LaRoche, he is such good value, and I love to see him and Jane working together…I had to laugh out loud at the scene in the car…I thought that Jane may have to stop to let JJ rehearse his lines.

    I like the theory that Kirkland may be a double agent, interesting, I will keep it in mind while watching the next few episodes. I really don’t think that Kirkland is red John….mainly because I feel that we are being steered that way by the writers, and they usually lay a trail of red herrings for us…. I did wonder though if he was quite high up in the organisation…hence asking if he was recognised….if the lower orders don’t necessarily recognise the ‘elite’ members as they don’t usually get their hands dirty…..and he was doing some damage limitation….outside his usual role.

    I wondered about the frostiness between Lisbon and Jane too, I was interested by the theory of an earlier contributor (sorry I can’t remember who) that last weeks closeness was due to the euphoria that Lisbon felt at the ending of the ‘Lorelei fiasco’…..we have all felt that at some time I am sure…..just glad to get things back to ‘normal’ only to realise on later thoughts that it really hasn’t solved anything, and all the issues present before, are there still……I agree that some stuff is bubbling under the surface and feelings are there but not being recognised…I’m just not too sure of what the feelings actually are, and I have a feeling that our two heroes feel much the same.

    Again, thank you for taking time out of your hectic schedule to do this review, it is much appreciated.

  • estatica

    The best bit about arriving late to this party is that, not only I get to pick reviewbrain’s erm.. brains, but everyone else’s too! Thanks!

    I would still like to add a few things to everything that’s already been said:

    – For me this episode foreshadows the painful, but necessary fall out between Jane and Lisbon. They have been hinting it all through this season, but this episode to me was the definite confirmation that, whatever they have in store for those two, it’s going to hurt. Really bad.

    Jane may have been through hell all these years, but he hasn’t hit rock bottom yet. And, for the character to develop, I think he really needs to at this point. How? By losing Lisbon, in one way or the other. Like the mother’s victim, he may be convinced that the show must go on and that he must do whatever he can for his daughter, but I don’t think he’s prepared to lose Lisbon’s unconditional support.

    Even after spending 6 months in Vegas, Jane’s confident that she will help him, no matter what. He looks like he is drinking her in when he sees her at the church, he’s really happy and doesn’t seem all that anxious to put her up to date with his plan. Now he’s not so sure. He thinks she is glum because he is interfering with Kirkland’s business and thinking more about how it will make the team look bad. And that, I think, is the dominant feeling behind the “when am I not on my own time?”. To me it’s his way of saying: “I feel like you no longer have my back like you used to”.

    – It’s really interesting how the roles of Lisbon and LaRoche seem reversed in this episode. In season 3, Jane was worried that LaRoche would find out the truth about the break-in at his house and Lisbon was there to save the day and punch the suspect. Now, Jane leaves Lisbon in the dark and brings LaRoche to help him catch the killer. He calls him JJ and goes out of his way to make this a pleasurable experience for him.

    Was anyone else confused when Jane told LaRoche he owed him a favour? Did I miss something? When did Jane do anything for him? Does this have anything to do with the contents of the Tupperware box that LaRoche thinks he knows about? Hmm. Either way, I just love LaRoche. And I refuse to believe he is sinister or bad. If the writers make him a RJ’s minion in a plot twist, I’ll be throwing all my popcorn at the screen and hope it short-circuits.

    – About Kirkland, he may not be RJ’s minion, he may have a personal vendetta or some really fantastic story that supports his actions, or something else that we may not be even contemplating. But like III Frogs said, I’m certain that he knows RJ’s identity. He waited patiently for Lennon to wake up, and the only thing he really wanted to know was if he could be recognized. He didn’t ask RJ’s identity, he didn’t ask what Lennon told Jane or Lorelei, he was only concerned in being recognized. It blows my mind just thinking about it!

    I really thought Kevin Corrigan was excellent in this episode. The way he calls Jane by his first name, how he violates his personal space in both scenes, by touching him. The grooming in the first scene in particular made me shudder in disgust. It felt oddly intimate, caring and threatening, all at the same time, like RJ in the second season’s finale. Poor Jane.

    Anyway, I’m so glad they’re bringing Kirkland back in the next episode. I look forward to see how it will all play out! 😀

  • III Frogs

    I can really see your interpretation here, sabresue, that Jane may be continuing his conversation with Lisbon from TWBB, as people often do, and saying he is in the relationship by choice, too. I have to agree with donnamour also that there is an element of melancholy in how Jane feels when he says this. I think that’s natural and Lisbon felt melancholy when she gave him that ultimatum in TWBB. Both of them probably have many other feelings, too, of course.

  • Rose UK

    @ Estatica: Indeed. I’m afraid they’re heading for a major falling out, too. Although like you, I’m consoling myself with the thought that it needs to happen. The general exasperation that Lisbon often displays is now going both ways, and it’s weird to see. Although I also suppose that’s normal in long-term relationships – you know, when sometimes you’re all “Get out of my face!” with the other half. (Hm. Or maybe that’s just me. 😉 ) Regardless, it add depth and layers to their story and our viewing experience, but it also makes me miss the fond and playful side looks of season 1+.

    Not even going to begin debating Kirkland; I’m plenty confuddled as it is. 😉

  • mosquitoinuk

    I think you are right: what he said what true and I think *all of it* was, including the bit where he was killing him out of kindness. Let’s see how this plays out! 🙂

  • mosquitoinuk

    I love your analogy of the Red Curtain and Kirkland. This is something that I totally overlooked but it is so clever! I hope as you say that it means that Kirkland fears what is behind the red curtain and not that we were offered a peek behind the red curtain (i.e RJ’s doing)

  • mosquitoinuk

    That is absolutely lovely Rose and so insightful. It looks like they are communicating sideways…it is true that it feels private as you say.

  • Arco

    Kevin Corrigan made a list of underrated actors. He was described as someone “who tends to get typecast as a disheveled sociopath much of the time.” I enjoyed his recurring role on “Fringe.” In “The Mentalist,” he definitely seems to be continuing the sociopath stereotype although better groomed.

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you Reviewbrain for your devotion in spite of the very busy schedule you have! Also I’m completely overwhelmed with the sudden rush of all this fantastic comments. Seems I have to read them as many times as I watch each episode!

    One of the writers of this episode is Eoghan Mahony, if we consider some of the episodes that he has written, we can find a recurring theme and that is (as Rose UK truly mentioned above) false identity and faking: ‘Red Brick and Ivy’ (switching an ape with another to fake research results), ‘Paint it Red’ (switching the fake painting in place of the original), ‘Red Sauce’ (using fake identity for witness protection), ‘A Price Above Rubies’ (using a fake identity to start a new life), ‘Redacted’ (using fake identities for surveillance), ‘Blood and Sand’ (fake identity to evade justice), ‘Pink Champagne on Ice’ (fake the real show performer to conduct casino heist), ‘Red Lacquer Nail Polish’ (killing and faking the identity of the victim for financial gain), and this episode ‘Behind the Red Curtain’ (faking a nonexistent investor). One wonders if Kirkland, too, is faking his true identity (the alien lizard quote)?!

    Well, resolving the true identity of Kirkland and RJ at this point is probably impossible. Best we can do is to consider each and every possibility and wait and see which one may turn out to be true. So I’m going to propose yet another possibility:

    One interesting thing that was brought up by estatica and III Frogs in the review of the last episode, ‘Red, White and Blue’, was in the concluding scene of ‘Pink Champagne on Ice’ in which we have a mention of Kansas City (I was mistaken back then in thinking that that episode was written by our dear writer Eoghan Mahony, my apologies! But I still think that it may be of importance.) As I have mentioned back then talking about Kansas City led Patrick to joke about Jack’s undermined memory palace, and yet the notion of memory problem was the main theme of the last episode, and it was mentioned explicitly (and with insistence, as I consider the “Thank you” moment back then, in addition to or in spite of the prevalent consensus most of you had, as yet another attempt on the part of Patrick Jane to expand his memory palace! If you wonder why, you can refer to my comment back then). If we consider what Kirkland was eager to ask Lennon about, we may wonder about its possible connection with this theme! Is it possible that Kirkland and co are conducting a secret experiment (either with or without DHS’s official sanction and involvement)? Or investigating about it? We know that Jane was in a mental institute during his breakdown and his psychologist was also a researcher in the field of neurology, although a discredited one by now (hat episode too was written by Eoghan Mahony!). Keep in mind that recently we had a reminder of that theme in the form of Dr. Sonia Kidd which is a lead researcher in the field of primate brains studies.

    Please feel free to criticize my speculations mercilessly!

    PS. I won’t even try to guess what Chibi’s art work would be about this time! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    @Anomaly: wow wow wow! I am hopping about here reading your list of Mahoney’s fake-outs! Like Violet’s list of keys and locks last week. Sigh. I love this site.

  • reviewbrain

    You bring up a very good point. Now I’m wondering if Kirkland is somehow enforcing the NDAA…

  • estatica

    What a fantastic comment. No criticism from me (how could I?), I think Eoghan Mahony would be proud if he came across what you just wrote. You have certainly given me more things to think about now. Thanks!

  • Rose UK

    🙂 Still thinking about the undercurrents in this scene… Get the vibe that Lisbon feels somehow caught in the act (ho ho ho); just as exposed and vulnerable as the lady she interrupted… I’ll shut up about it now.

  • Valentine0214

    Thank you, reviewbrain, for your review. This is my favorite site for my favorite show. I have been thinking about Bob Kirkland as Red John or at least high up in the Red John network. It could be as simple as Jane’s explanation to Rigsby about Occam’s razor, that is, the simplest explanation for something is the most probable. I dismissed Kirkland like many others because he was too obvious, but I’m not sure now. It could be the classic double bluff which would, at least, be worthy of Jane, the ultimate con man.

    I love Jane. I really do. But just for a minute I really hoped Kirkland, or even Mancini, was being brought in as a possible love interest for Lisbon, or at least some relief from the soul-wrenching reality that is Jane. I only hope that he won’t crash and burn in this pursuit of Red John.

  • P

    feel free! I adopt others’ theories all the time if I like them 🙂

  • windsparrow

    “Was anyone else confused when Jane told LaRoche he owed him a favour? Did I miss something?”

    I’m pretty certain that Jane was not counting in any strict one to one correspondence of favors. I’m pretty sure that was Jane Math. I am more sure that La Roche owed Jane zero favors at that point than I am about who owed who that $50 in Kansas City (Jack or Jane… I still think Jack might just have to call it a lost cause, and chalk it up to the cost of getting saved by Jane).

  • windsparrow

    I have two words to say about Kirkland asking Lennon if he recognized him before killing him:

    Plastic Surgery.

    Kirkland waited until the guy woke up because he wanted to ask him… what? “Do you recognize me?” What kind of question is that? Why would he care? If Kirkland was worried that Lennon could somehow implicate him as RJ or a part of the RJ network, he could easily have knocked him off before he woke from the coma, with no risk that he might waken and talk outside of Kirkland’s control. No, there was a special reason for wanting the answer to that specific question – Kirkland was testing the strength of his disguise.

    Now, that leaves open the question of who Kirkland really is. Is the Kirkland who had FBI Agent Alexa tell Minelli about Jane’s stay in the hospital the same guy, or did someone steal his identity? If they are one and the same, then the disguise is not recent – someone on Twitter (maybe cjconnor) suggested it could be Orville Tanner – who would have faked his own death in prison, then had plastic surgery to assume a new identity. Then again, he could be anyone, really. Red John himself? Maybe, though it is hard to imagine the two voices matching. But then, what if Tim Carter WAS the one who quoted that poem at a plastic-wrapped Jane, acting as a stand-in for his master. (or as one tentacle of the many-armed octopus that is RJ).

  • P

    I really don’t know what to make of the Lisbon / Kirkland relationship. The hair fluff episode seemed to indicated a mutual attraction and the possibility of a future romantic involvement. Since then the writers seemed to have reversed course and made her somewhat hostile to Kirkland. I don’t see the point of a one episode only attraction. I feel like they need to do something in the future to make that storyline (more like story fragment!) make sense.

  • Cricridb

    De-lurking a little hehe!

    Funny thing you mentioned that sometimes the simplest explanation for something is the most probable and that it could be a double bluff. I was talking to a friend about the last episode and I remembered a conversation between Jane and Lisbon in the season premiere where they were talking about RJ telling Jane that he had a mole in the FBI, and it occured to me, what if Heller was talking about the RJ storyline?

    ” LISBON: Why would he tell you the truth?
    JANE: Because he knows we’ll assume he’s lying.And he knows we’ll begin to suspect the truth anyway. It’s a double bluff to conceal his friend.”

    It may be too far fetched but I wouldn’t put it past Heller to write those lines on purpose.

    He may be obvious but if we look back so was Craig O’Loughlin.
    Besides, comparing him with the other candidates he’s not a bad choice. He’s one of the few people that from what we’ve seen(even if it was very little) can match wits with Jane (unless Red John is making himself appear less smart than he really is on purpose like you were discussing sometime ago…)
    The best one imho would be Stiles, but he’s too old so…

  • P

    I don’t think he is actively trying to protect Jane. I do think he either is watching Jane because he thinks Jane might have information that can help him with his own agenda, or that he is just trying to make sure Jane doesn’t get in the way and accidentally screw up whatever Kirkland has planned.

  • P

    Maybe the mask Kirkland is wearing is that of a Red John minion. Perhaps he is really a good guy underneath, but in pursuing his real agenda (which the viewers don’t know yet) he does things that mislead the viewer and make him look like a bad guy.(Bruno has deceived us before) And Red john mistakes Kirkland’s mask for his true face and does not know who he is really dealing with. Kirkland could secretly be pulling the strings on the entire investigation…keeping tabs on Jane from the beginning, getting involved actively in the investigation now,

  • P

    I didn’t view that so much as Lisbon telling Jane off about interfering in Kirkland’s business as giving him a friendly warning. Yes, she is concerned about the image of the team. But, more importantly, she must know that they are on thin ice. Kirkland is now “sharing” the investigation with them. If they, and by “they” I really mean Jane, screw up again, the case could be taken off of them all together. She is doing her best to regain control through official channels, and Jane making a nuisance of himself can only hurt in that regard. She knows if Jane ticks off Kirkland, they could lose all access for good.

    Jane can’t understand this because he is (as always when RJ is involved) blinded by his emotions. He interprets her words as Lisbon not having his back, or abandoning him. I think him lashing out at Lisbon is unjustified. She is doing all she can to help him (even though I personally think she needs to reign him in), but she is not a magician. If he was half as smart as he thinks he is, he would look at the pattern. His emotions always cloud his logic on RJ matters. Lisbon always gives him good advice. He always ignores it and carries out his desperate actions. Things always get screwed up. If he were to TRULY accept her as a partner, he would realize she has his best interests at heart and would consider stepping back when she tells him to. If Jane feels alone in his quest, it is only because he won’t let Lisbon help him.

  • canddee2012

    Thank you Reviewbrain. Such a good review. I constantly am in awe as you and Violet are able to analyse each episode and help us understand things, especially when we overlook them. I have gone back quite a few times after reading and seen the episode in an entirely different light.

    I hope your busy schedule is giving you at least a small amount of time to relax abd recharge your batteries. Please know that you both are so appreciated.

  • valentinasweet

    I fully agree with you, the mentalist, nothing is left to chance, there are no coincidences, and when an act is done is because it “means something” is still a TV series and as such every movement and action of the actors has a reason, for example, that lisbon has fluffly her hair means something or there is “warning” of something in the future, is a gesture that has never done before with anyone and i do not think it’s a coincidence, that kirkland asked lisbon to go get a cup of coffee, the sentence of Jane “and you have not even told your best friend kirkland” Jane has never been jealous of lisbon or at least has never seen, while no have witnessed the “working torque lisbon / kirkland” because he is too busy to fulfill lorelei, showed some jealousy kirkland, it is no coincidence and are not phrases thrown there, I think from now on we will review very often in Kirkland epidodi and all those little gestures made in the episodes (5×07-5×08-5×16, 5×18) will have a reason, in my ignorance, kirkland lisbon and they will deepen their relationship and if kirkland trying to get close to lisbon to know what she actually knows Jane? (remember the dialogue kirkland / bertram) something will happen, and in my opinion are paving the way for a possible romance between kirkland continuing involvement and lisbon,
    its a pleasure talk in this blog….
    so amazing ^^

  • bloomingviolet2013

    I think the favor LaRoche « owed » Jane was that Jane didn’t reveal his secret (in the Tupperware) which he is supposed to know. That’s Jane Math indeed, but at his worst: I didn’t tell on you yet, you owe me! 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    This is a very, very impressive review: I *love* it! It’s great to have such an awesome review from Reviewbrain for a major episode! 😀 Also I’m amazed at the comments: wow, you guys are very enthusiastic and insightful… I’m in awe! Some very interesting discussions are ongoing!

    I’ll just add my two cents on one point (it’s been already examined in many comments so I guess it doesn’t belong to any particular discussion). I really hope Kirkland isn’t RJ himself, since there would be a huge pet peeve: Lorelei has warned Jane against men he shook hands with. Kirkland had only been introduced to him after she was put into jail by the FBI. She would have no way to know they met, unless RJ reached for her while she was incarcerated and then, she would have known it wasn’t him who helped her escape in ‘Red Sails in The Sunset’. There is no doubt for me that he works for RJ still: the way he killed Jason before he could talk to Jane, the talk about “friends” (that’s a theme largely used by minions: Lorelei told Jane RJ wanted to be friends with him, Hardy defined himself as one of RJ’s friends, O’Laughlin stated to Grace that he was her only friend, her coworkers were not,…). Moreover his interest in Jane is telling (and creepy): he brushes Jane’s jacket lapel while telling him “look at you, you’re a mess” in the beginning of the episode and later lays a comforting hand on his shoulder when Jason has died. He’s very touchy-feely with him. Creepy.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Very interesting! I need to watch the episode again to catch more details, but I can already add some more similarities with the “Wizard of Oz”: Dorothy is from Kansas (continuity with the song “Kansas City”); the victim fell from the sky and crushed a car (like Dorothy and her house fell because of the tornado and crushed the Witch). Also, there was a snapshot showing the black shoe she lost: it’s rather to be expected that she lost it when falling, but why show it in particular? It reminds of Archie’s glittering broken shoe in ‘Ruby Slippers’ which was “Wizard of Oz” themed episode. Back then, this reference was linked to hope of a new life for Archie and for Jane, shortly before the dramatic finale. Now, it reminds that Jane is on a quest and that it is coming at a pivotal moment… hence Jane’s gentleness to the mother who abandoned her daughter and lost her a second time (like him who failed Charlotte and “lost” her again when he was hallucinating): the themes of a quest and of grief are intertwined closely along with a form of peace of mind (the mother’s attitude at the end if I’m not mistaken)… I really need to watch it again before I elaborate… 😛

    I must say was intrigued too by the « Behind the Red Curtain” reference but it was more linked to acting: the actors in the musical, the false appearances (the secret illness for instance as you pointed out). The fact that everything seems to take place behind the scene/ out of sight of the supposed main action:
    -the murder in the deserted changing room
    – the reveal of the killer’s identity behind the scenes when the musical is about to start and the spectators’ attention is focused elsewhere
    – most importantly the way Kirkland killed Lennon when they were alone. When Jane arrives at the hospital, they watch the doctors try to reanimate him behind the window: it’s almost as if they were watching a kind of show, while the real action has already taken place behind the scene.
    Beside, Jane is a spectator both at the hospital, where he sits at the beginning waiting for Lennon to wake up, and when he is listening to Deandra, waiting in the shadows… Both storylines are linked, as indicated from the start the red carpet, an expected element in showbiz and, at the same time, a way to show a red element from the very first moments of the episode to remind that RJ is lurking around. Also, one more mask: the stone face above the entrance of the hotel at the beginning.

    Also, I that me or the name of the musical “Torch” is intriguing? Is that a reference to torch songs, where someone expresses their lost/ unrequited love for someone? The poster showed a man and two women: could it be an indirect way to allude to Jane who is divided between two goals, his RJ obsession (torch/fire linked to the color red) and his feelings for Lisbon (who he seems to be carrying a torch for so far, since she’s hell bent on not acknowledging him)? I think Cho described the storyline as a story of lies or love or something like that, but I may be wrong….

    @ P: I’m not sure. He’s already wearing a mask since he’s keeping his own hidden agenda from Lisbon (hiding while she’s talking with Bertram) and from Jane (watching him and killing Jason). If he was faking his “bad guy” act for us viewers, that would make him wear a double mask so to speak: he would be a good guy who impersonates a bad guy who impersonates a good guy… Not very likely in my opinion. But I agree with you: he doesn’t seem to be a simple minion obeying orders (nor RJ himself): there is definitely something fishy here…

  • bloomingviolet2013

    I agree with Valentina: I think Lisbon liked Kirland from the start (hence the hair fluffing) and she came to trust him when they teamed up to “save” Jane from Lorelei. Still, she knows he may be a threat since she’s been keeping things from him –namely that Jane was responsible for Lorelei’s escape- and she didn’t appreciate that he put their budding friendship/closeness at risk by going behind her back to ask for Bertram’s collaboration. When she asked him what his goal was, he answered in a very vague fashion and she called him on that. I think she doesn’t really know what to make of him: she trusts him to some point (he helped her with Jane after all), but she’s still wary of him and this feeling must have deepened since he took Jason from them quite brutally. That’s why she doesn’t want Jane to be too antagonistic with him: this is pretty ambiguous but there is potential for something more between them. And that makes definitely Jane uneasy.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I totaly agree with you, P. He is blind, attacking her for no reason. When Kirkland appeared on the CBI for the first time because of Volker (I believe it was a kind of excuse to get close to her and Jane), he was soon invited to Lisbon “a coffee”. So when he came in it seemed that she thought it was because of her, so she “straightened” her hair but then only cared about Jane. The third time, she was not as receptive to the man, she seemed suspicious, so there is continuity of her trust in him, in my humble opinion.
    I also think our friend changed her behavior with your consultant since he disappeared for six months and said “I love you”. That stuck with it, I guess. She is sweeter and caring with him. I think she loves him. That makes me a little sad because, lately, it seems one-sided. Since Devil’s Cherry (when “Charlotte did insuanuações about Jane and Lisbon and he was embarrassed [the girl was totally Jisbon!]) There is no further significant demonstration of feelings from him to her (am I wrong?). Without contiuidade of” I love you. “Like that I don’t want to. Why is this asshole said” I love you “, then. this left the audience (read: me) full of hope for then he say to her face that maybe tivese feelings for another woman . He is is blind? Didn’t he see the woman on the verge of tears? This is the season limit for me. Depending on what happens in its final ,the Mentalist will lose me as a spectator.
    I’m not enjoying this season as in the other. She has left me tense, sad. If so is best forgotten. I think not more like Jane. I’m a fan # zero Lisbon and she is suffering.
    Sorry for the rant.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Should I withdraw my comment? Did I offend someone?

  • windsparrow

    I do agree with your comments about Lisbon and Kirkland. She had a small personal interest in him, but I think it wore off while they worked together after Loralei’s escape. Lisbon’s internal tension from appreciating Kirkland’s help in finding out what was going on while simulataneously having to hold back from him because she had good reason to suspect Jane had not been abducted would have killed off any desire in Lisbon to have a personal connection with Kirkland.

    I am not certain I agree with your interpretation of Jane’s feelings and actions about Lisbon’s feelings – I think he has a great deal of internal tension – I think he has very deep feelings for her, but the deeper those feelings go the more he fears Red John’s ability to use her to hurt him. And while Jane has been letting her in on much of what he is doing, treating her more as a partner on the Red John investigation, he knows they still fundementally disagree about what should happen when they do identify and locate RJ.

    As far as withdrawing a comment, I do not see anything offensive about it. The great thing about the community reviewbrain has built here is that we can have disagreements and even change our own opinions and do so while respecting each other. Some of the best discussions come from having different interpretations of different aspects of the show. And the show is well-written enough that there is plenty to discuss and disagree on.

  • windsparrow

    If La Roche’s secret does turn out to be something more personal and not sinister or illegal and someone else reveals it in such a way as to embarrass or hurt La Roche, I can see Jane taking some kind of revenge on that person.

  • windsparrow

    Reviewbrain? Is WordPress being wacky? It says my comment is awaiting moderation. I thought you had it set to do that to new people’s first comments…

    I haven’t been that much of a stranger here, have I?

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Do not worry, Windsparrow: at least one third of my comments are continually awaiting moderation too… WordPress is sometimes in a rebellious mood… XD
    (Not to mention I can no longer use my old account as “violet”… sigh…)

  • bloomingviolet2013

    “is” awaiting, not “are”, sorry. Sent too fast 😛

  • bloomingviolet2013

    I agree with that. Jane seems to like La Roche; although the circumstances were very different, when he asked for his help it reminded a bit of his meeting with Minelli: respect and a little bit of antagonism/wariness mixed together. And La Roche trusts Jane enough to participate in his scheme even if he’s not comfortable in playing a part. It wouldn’t be too surprising if his secret is revealed to be something personal and/or shameful.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thank you, windsparrow . I’m relieved to hear that.

  • windsparrow

    Thank you for your reassurance, violet. Should I repost the one that’s stuck?

  • bloomingviolet2013

    No, just wait: Reviewbrain needs to accept it and it’s ok. Either way, she will have to take care of the one you just sent, even if you repost it. It happens all the time, don’t worry! 🙂

  • windsparrow

    Ok, thanks!

  • valentinasweet

    i am agree with you too 🙂

    the relationship between kirkland and lisbon will become clearer in the next few episodes, all those “signals” between lisbon / jane / kirkland are just a way to pave the way to make clear the relationship that is being created between the three characters, I may be wrong, but it may be that you kirkland infiltrate between jane and lisbon putting out a good time to test the feelings jane lisbon?
    dmentichiamoci not instill that the only time jane “demonstrated” jealousy was for kirkland, I do not know, but that phrase jane “your new best friend kirkland” is not a phrase that was born and that was it, but according to me is a sign of what we might see in the future, but maybe I’m wrong, are just my guesses

  • Carla Oliveira

    That really make sense, windsparrow.

  • Auli

    I totally agree with you, P, that Lisbon didn’t talk about Kirkland to Jane but instead she was more worried about losing the case completely and causing harm for the team. And who can blame her! The last two operations against RJ without the other authority’s knowledge turned out to be quite catastrophic: Jane shooting an “innocent” man, the whole team getting suspended, Wainwright ending up dead, the whole Lorelei business and a lot of tension between FBI and CBI.

    I think that Jane however understood her warning differently. After reading about various comments about Jane’s being quite cruel to Lisbon, the shifting moments between personal and professional in the balcony scene and Lisbon/Kirkland relationship and Jane’s uneasiness about it, I couldn’t help to have a little thought that maybe there was a tiny bit of jealousy in Jane’s mean and to me quite personal response to Lisbon in the balcony scene. Jane is and has always been quite possessive of Lisbon and doesn’t want that she is been influenced by others, Bosco and LaRoche comes in mind. His way of showing jealousy, or uneasiness would be more appropriate word, has been quite subtle, for example distancing himself from the situation (the guy who kissed Lisbon in the high school reunion, the stripper), by provoking them (Hafner) or just showing suspicious and uneasy face (with Mashburn in the hotel room). The only time that I could say that Jane was definitely not so subtly jealous was with the “your new best friend Kirkland” scene. The sharp tone of his voice and how he put the words was quite interesting and had more personal vibe in it.

    I don’t have anything to back up this, it is just a feeling. I just hope that we would have a scene where all three of interacting with each other. It would be interesting to see how they all would behave, especially when Kirkland seems to know how to confuse and upset Jane by touching him and I think he would dare to be all sweet and charming towards Lisbon infront of Jane just to mess up with him. 🙂

    Another thing that came to my mind was Lisbon’s changed behaviour towards Kirkland. I agree with the comments that she was interested in personally of him and he really gave that impression by coming at first straight to her and asking her to coffee (I think that was just a way to get to close to her and hence Jane). Lisbon started to behave differently towards him as soon as she saw him with Bertram I think she realized that Kirkland’s intentions were just professional and then she became suspicious. The thing that came to my mind is that did Lisbon tell about Bertram/Kirkland relationship or cooperation to Jane? And how much actually does Lisbon tell things to Jane? I assume that if Jane knew that Lisbon’s boss seems to be quite close “friends” with Kirkland, he would have given her some slack.

  • SteveK2013

    What if RJ forced him to kill Jason?

  • bloomingviolet2013

    You mean that, if Kirkland truly is a good guy, RJ may have blackmailed/threatened him in killing one of his minions? Well, I can’t say it’s utterly impossible, but RJ never acted this way so far, he usually uses followers who are convinced they’re doing the“right” thing (relatively speaking, since “there is no right or wrong”). Besides Kirkland referred to himself as a serial killer’s “friend”: would a genuine law enforcement officer do that, even before being forced to murder said killer? It’s not as if he was gaining anything from labelling himself as a friend: it wasn’t a hostage situation or anything like that. He could have told Jason that he was sorry or that the man was a monster, it wold have had the same result in the end.

  • P

    Carla, I agree with much of what you said. I also feel like after Devil’s Cherry there has been no sign at all of Jane having feelings for Lisbon. This season, he really seems to be using her. I am kind of in the same position as you. Depending on the season finale, I may not watch next year. I am already tired of the Red John story, and it appears they seem determined to string that out to the very end. I don’t like the “darker” Jane of this season – in fact, I very much dislike him which is making me not enjoy the show as much as in prior years. If they don’t catch RJ, there is no reason to believe they won’t keep Jane dark or make him even darker next season. Finally, they are making Lisbon suffer and making her a doormat (in my opinion- I know others disagree.) She, not Jane, is my favorite character. I can’t watch her continue to sacrifice for Jane and just be lied to and hurt by him in return. If they don’t very clearly fix at least some of this in the season finale, I won’t be back next year.

  • Carla Oliveira

    True, P. I do not want Jane to be a saint, not me. I like his irreverent personality, is one of his qualities, he made ​​me laugh. He really needs to break some rules to catch RJ, we know. But he was also loyal and caring, especially with Lisbon. He was there to defend her, help her (like when she caught Volker). Now he’s making me sad and suspicious. Imagine how Lisbon must be feeling … She take him back and even helped not agree with the effectiveness of his plan at the end of last season, after 6 months without news. I liked him so much …

  • Lou Ann

    Pardon me if i am repeating myself. I responded to this comment and then “lost” it.

    I wanted to say that I agree with Valentinasweet and others that nothing is by chance in TM, even a “hair flip.” I believe that Kirkland’s being in DHS is intentional. I just looked up the NDAA on line (ACLU site). For a citizen of the USA, I admit I was quite ignorant of the huge powers it gives the government, encroaching on civil rights, among others to detain and incarcerate persons without trial.

    I think the theme of power, especially veiled power, is pervasive throughout the series. We see it in RJ’s mysterious power over others and seemingly unfettered power within the government agencies to control events and people. We see it in Jane’s mentalist powers: as the season 1 titles always said, “a master manipulator of thoughts and behavior.” The idea that some people may have supernatural, psychic powers. The clash of the various state and federal agencies for power.

    How this all concludes is going to be fascinating.

  • valentinasweet

    I agree with most of the comments above, but I ask you something?
    during the balcony scene when Lisbon tells Jane that he should not interfere with the kirkland’s affair and that is why she is glum, Jane says, “ah that”
    and she says “yes that”

    the “that” who was refered?
    that is, do you think Jane meant “that” referring to kirkland or meant to say “that” referring to why lisbon was glum?
    like “ah is for that who you are glum” (the fact that he interferes with methods not worthy,
    sorry for the stupid question but I wanted to hear your opinions, I realized that “that” said by Jane was related to kirkland.

  • milaf

    well, i desagree… rj killed his minions by other means and not only like he usually kills ppl : cutting them open.. do you remember how rebecca died?? she was poisoned, not cut open…also,that other guy that died bc someone set fire on him and he died whispering to jane “tiger tiger”… there was hardy that wasn’t killed by rj, but by jane.. but i think that since he was going to prison and i doubt that rj would invade a prison to kill a man, he would have died poisoned, or killed himself like the wife of that other man that told jane he was rj.. so, nbot every minion rj has, dies by his hands.. i do believe kirkland has some connection to rj.. repetituve?? i don’t think so.. coz they were repetitive already, by killing, AGAIN, another person who could lead jane to rj…….. o.0

  • Carla Oliveira

    Well thought out, Lou Ann.

  • milaf

    awesome review , as always ^^ its my first comment here but i’m a fan of your reviews coz they really give us a new view in the episodes…i also like to read all the coments coz its good to see all the different point of vews about the show.. so i’ll give mine about kirkland and that crazy scene at the end.. i don’t believe the man was forced or is trying to go on a personal vendetta to catch rj.. why he would do that its what i can’t think of.. i mean, he works for a organization that, according to him, is looking closely to rj’s case.. so, why he’d risk his job , a investigation that its not his but HS?? we don’t know anything about his personal life yet…we don’t know nothing about him ..but what we know is that the man killed another one in a cold way. without any guilty and believing that he was doing a good thing coz if the man wen’t to prison : he would be the toy of monsters inside the prison…¬¬ i mean… you guys would kill somebody coz you believe would be better??? he is a federal agent.he can easily can anybody just because he is one?? i mean, not even lisbon shoot people, unless she has a good reason.. this man killed a man bc he believe he was doing something good?? i can’t believe that.. what i believe is that he can be rj..Can, not he that he IS…In 5×16, after Lorelei is found dead, the camera focus on Kirkland’s face before moving to the next scene where we see Jane and Lisbon moving closer to Lorelei’s body. Now,I don’t have that much insight in film production but as a viewer it seemed very significant to me, why was it important for us to see his reaction?there was a nervous energy around him.. like he wanted to see jane’s reaction. Also, about the ” it would be so obvious if kirk was really rj”.. well, lots of people say that the obvious, the easier answer sometimes is the RIGHT answer….

    1-Lennon said that he brought miranda to red john, so, he could have see him , right?? if so, that might be the reason to kirkland asking him TWICE if he knew him at all….if lennon saw his face when he brought miranda to rj and kirk was rj, then he have all the reason to ask the man if he knew him- also , the fact that lennon didn’t know lorelei or her, him, tell us that rj minions don’t have to know each other.. its not bc they are all rj’s minions that they have to know each other or every minion rj has…-

    2- , kirk said that it was ALWAYS a pleasure to talk to jane… I bet they didn’t have much time to talk to each other.. unless…. You know, he talked to him as RJ.

    3- in the season 2 finale rj touched jane’s chest, patting him, when he talked about kristina frye…kirkland does the same when he says goodbye to jane…

    4-Red john said that he had a friend in the CBI..well, in the 100th episode we saw him saying “thank you” to alexa after she called minelli…Alexa could be rj’s, kirk’s friend in the FBI.

    5- i saw a comment in a spanish forum about the last episode making a parallel between the killer- the producer – who invented an investor to his play…well, the man created someone, a character that everybody respected, was rich, powerful – cho or vanpelt said that the man could buy the state -but nobody ever saw his face or anything….We never saw rj’s face, just him wearing a mask , a disguise – like the killer did-, he is powerful,people respect him – his followers-, but we’re not certain that he shows his face to everybody…-the character the killer invented was never seen by anyone-…What i want to say is: maybe RJ doesn’t exist. he is a character created by some man to do what he likes to do : kill people. so, this man said to a bunch of people about this rj man, that he can give people a new life, a new choice, they just have to follow him and his oders, and that he is rj’s voice,everything that rj wants , these pppl will know by him.I know its crazy, but i thought that at some extent, makes sense…..

  • SteveK2013

    True! Eventually, the writers will reveal the truth about Kirkland.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I liked you, milaf. The points you raised are excellent. I think you opened the eyes of many people (mine, of course). I agree that Kirkland is a strong canditdato RJ. The man looks with a psychopath.
    I think RJ can be an invention of someone, it is possible. But one thing I’ve always felt is that it is someone who has something personal against Jane. So I thought bullshit he be so happy with Lorelei revelation that he met RJ and that in the end this woman only served to prove that.
    And certainly Kirkland is a sadist, he has nothing good.

  • Ness

    Excellent discussions! ^ I’m liking Kirkland as a third party…

    What if Kirkland is dirty, but not an RJ-ally? He wanted Lennon dead to avoid being implicated in some other/linked illegal scheme that may overlap with RJ’s network.

    Do we have evidence of (non-RJ) underhand dealings in canon? I give you Ardiles’ Furland case and Shettrick’s capacity to sell out (5.12 Little Red Corvette).

  • Lou Ann

    thank you. i do not consider myself in the same league as RB, Violet and many others who comment, but I am pleased to be able to put out my thoughts. And of course, while I was making dinner, I thought of more examples of where power comes into play in the show, but they’ve all escaped my brain right now!

  • zee

    “I have two words to say about Kirkland asking Lennon if he recognized him before killing him:
    Plastic Surgery.”

    There’s rampant theories pointing to disguises and stolen identities. I don’t know if this sounds silly, but I remembered Kirkland had facial hair when he first met Lisbon? Then I noticed he looked clean shaven in the following episodes appearances… I’m not sure how wardrobe/make up works in TV or maybe Kevin Corrigan working on other projects, but dare i say in the Mentalist-verse it might have meant something?

    (shallower end, I know….)

  • suzjazz

    God, it would be too awful if Lisbon fell for Kirkland and he turns out to be Red John! It just occurred to me that this is a possible plot twist.

    I still love the show even though I think it is sadly lacking in romance, and in this season, humor. I am not a shipper and I generally despise Jisbon, but that being said, I think it would be out of character for J and L not to end up in a romantic relationship. I’m not sure how that would play itself out, especially now that Jane is extremely cold and even cruel to Lisbon. And it does appear that the love is on her side only, despite his profession of love last season, Lorelei’s observation that “you are a little bit in love with her,” and the revelations of Jane’s subconscious (unconscious?) in the form of the teenage Charlotte saying she liked Lisbon and that J and L should get together.

    I’ve said it before: the series needs an episode told from Lisbon’s point of view. We know far too little about either her inner life of her life outside of work (we are to assume that she has no life outside of work.) Her one night stand with Mashburn is the only time we have seen her involved with any man, and we have occasional hints of dating, but we see her portrayed as celibate, rigid, tense, angry, and reticent about her feelings.
    None of the CBI team seem to have any friends or people they confide in (except Rigsby and Cho in their endearing relationship) We can only surmise that Lisbon is a terribly lonely, proud, tough-minded but vulnerable woman who thinks she can control her emotions, but who has in fact fallen for a man whom she really can’t trust. She is so angry with herself for falling for Jane that she just might go on a date with Kirkland to spite Jane and prove to herself that she has moved on. And if Kirkland is RJ…well, I shudder to think what he has planned for Theresa!

    Maybe I am reading too much into this, but I don’t think so…

  • reviewbrain

    Valentina, I think it’s actually a very good question and reflects the question on what Lisbon feels towards Kirkland, and how Jane perceives that relationship. Lisbon says she’s glum because Jane is interfering with Kirkland’s work. Which Jane replies “ah, that”. But is she glum because she’s worried about Kirkland making trouble for Jane and the team? I think, based on Jane’s ambivalent at best tone *he* thinks she’s glum because she cares a bit about Kirkland and doesn’t want Jane making thing hard for him. Whether that’s true or not is another matter of course…

  • suzjazz

    I think (and I could be wrong) that Jane told someone that he really didn’t know what was in the Tupperware container but he wanted La Roche to think he did so that Jane could blackmail LaRoche if he doesn’t do what Jane wants.) The great thing about this show is that it is like a con that is orchestrated on many levels: the viewer usually doesn’t know what to believe. There is always ambiguity. Jane himself is quite capable of lying to anyone and everyone, so we can’t even trust information we get from our protagonist. It’s possible that Jane is playing a very deep game with Lisbon, in which he pretends not to have any feelings for her even as a friend, in order to protect her from RJ and also to get her off the RJ case which he wants for himself. Or it could simply be that he has been using Lisbon all along just as he uses Lorelei, just as he plants evidence on people and deceives, cheats, and manipulates people toto reveal the perp. And there are still other equally credible explanations for his behavior. J and L are already hurting each other and I agree that the writers want things to end badly (maybe even tragically) between them. It’s a disappointment to me, because I would like to see something good come out of Jane’s long ordeal: once RJ is killed (for he must be killed, not imprisoned) J and L should at least share a real kiss and the hint of more to come.

  • suzjazz

    Very true about the red herrings. I get exasperated that each episode builds up my hopes for a clue and then taunts me by giving me nothing. I also doubt that Kirkland is RJ because RJ is never sloppy or reckless, and to go into a hospital where he might be caught poisoning a patient would be taking a foolish risk. RJ has enough minions so that he can stay behind the scenes safely out of sight. But I could be wrong. Also: Jane’s RJ antennae might be down, or else he would be very suspicious of Kirkland if there was even a chance he could be RJ.

    I loved the re-appearance of LaRoche–the scenes with him were beautifully written.

    Regarding the frostiness between J and L: see my commentary at the end of this thread (if it gets approved) I hate to watch it, because I want to see them being drawn closer together, but obviously it’s not what the writers want.

  • suzjazz

    Nice analysis!
    Interesting what you said about the song lyrics. I’ll take that further: another line from the song is “how strange the change/from major to minor/every time we say goodbye.” As a professional musician, I see this as a commentary on the disagreement/fighting between J and L–major to minor in music means happy to sad–and the two of them have been ranging from happy (the kansas city singing) to miserable (the acrimonious dialog between them.) I am familiar with all the lyrics of the song (I play it from time to time) and it is a song about someone who can’t be happy without the other person. J and L are distancing themselves from each other when they really want to get closer. At least that’s what I think.

  • suzjazz

    I agree with you totally but I will still watch the show regardless. I too believe that Lisbon is the true hero of the series–a truly noble, courageous, and compassionate woman who is being used by a man who used to be a con artist *and* has difficulty loving or getting close to anyone. I wish that they could write a show from her point of view.

  • Julie

    I think that the writers are playing things just right. There has to be friction between Jane and Lisbon because their ideals and modes of working are so different. The fact that Lisbon wants Jane to stay away from the hospital proves this. It is impossible for the man to stay away. He gave up six months of his life for this lead, how is he to walk away and leave it in the hands of someone else, especially when it worked out so well with the FBI and Lorelei.

    I don’t think Jane means to be mean to Lisbon he tries to protect her. The more she gets involved in his investigation the more laws she breaks, as she said herself she is now an accessory to murder.

    I certainly don’t think anyone needs to give up hope of them getting together. It can go either way.

  • windsparrow

    I agree, Julie. Jane and Lisbon between them have more issues than a box full of National Geographics at a library sale. There will be tension between them, friction while they are working. There will be friction and tension between them personally. Can you imagine the stress of knowing that simply having feelings for someone puts them in the crosshairs of a serial killer? That stress on top of the guilt and drive for revenge over losing one’s family to that killer, and being thwarted time and time again in pursuit of him? The only hope for the safety of the person you have feelings for is finding and stopping that killer, and until then maybe, just maybe the killer does not know for sure just how much that person means to you, so making open overtures to that person would likely increase the danger by a large factor.

    So yeah – No, Jane is not going to be playing happy families with Lisbon anytime soon. As an ardent shipper, I don’t want them to yet. For them to have the long haul happy ending, they must stop Red John. Until then, the tension should be all the way up to eleven.

  • Julie

    I’m on my phone so can’t copy and paste but the national geographic line – so funny

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks! And you’re completely right! That could be a real possibility, too. Because despite all I have said the creepiness was profound, especially the last thing he said to Lennon:”I won’t leave you!” (As a loose and?), also there is a remote possibility that Kirkland could be deceiving Bertram into thinking that he is a good guy.

  • anomalycommenter

    You’re welcome! I certainly am not worthy of your kind words, and what I suggested is just another theory with its many flaws. Thank you very much!

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks! I just enlisted some trivial things. Deep analysis is the department of you and our geniuses Violet and Reviewbrain! I must also confess that I’m totally addicted to this blog obsessively, compulsively!

  • valentinasweet

    thank you very much for your response to my stupid question, you’re very kind and I must make my best compliments for both the blog and because of the reviews, you’re fantastic * v *
    I agree with you, maybe it is true that Jane has misinterpreted the response of Lisbon, she just wanted to keep the team out of trouble and do not interfere with national security (kirkland) instead Jane realized that Lisbon meant not to interfere with kirkland because she trusts him (kirkland) and knows he will do a great job for the case “lennon”
    just so can explain jane’s bad answer to Lisbon, tell me what you want, but it was just mad with her O.o

  • Carla Oliveira

    If Jane thinks this is a fool. He does not see that she is worried about him and this team being watched by senior government. They can find out his involvement in the escape of Lorelei.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I also think he even knows Kirkland invited her to a coffe…

  • Carla Oliveira

    I do agree with you. I have ever thought in these points and i’m afraid things turn out tragically. I love our heroes.

  • mosquitoinuk

    Hi Milaf, this is why I said “…he might end up…” it should be interpreted as a possibility. Certainly, the death was quick and painless. RJ is capable of extreme physical and psychological cruelty as we know. Just think about Lorelei.

    Whatever we say, it will be pure speculation until the big revelation of course!

  • mosquitoinuk

    this is so interesting Suz! I don’t know anything about music and I thought “why are they letting us watch this whole song…” I found it pointless to be frank (I can be shallow like that ;-)) but I’ve learned lots from comments on this blog and now I can see this in a different light…in fact, I’ll re-watch…

  • mosquitoinuk

    “I also doubt that Kirkland is RJ because RJ is never sloppy or reckless, and to go into a hospital where he might be caught poisoning a patient would be taking a foolish risk. RJ has enough minions so that he can stay behind the scenes safely out of sight.”–> THIS

    I’ve read several interpretations in this blog so far about the “behind the red curtain…” thing and RJ:

    1.- Suz: RJ has enough minions so that he can stay behind the scenes safely out of sight–> Kirkland is an RJ minion and RJ is the master puppeteer.

    2.- Anomaly wrote: “And if we accept that Kirkland was telling the truth, it also shows how much he fears what is behind the red curtain himself” –> Kirkland is not one of RJ’s minions and he’s a good guy.

    3.- Myself: I thought that we could have been offered a peek behind the red curtain (i.e, RJ’s doing)–> Kirkland is RJ or one of RJ’s minions.

    I’m sure there are many more floating around…which one is it? this is great fun!

  • Rose UK

    I was hoping you’d respond with your comments about this, Violet! I always look forward to your thoughts on recurrent allusions, imagery and themes. 🙂

    Didn’t Lisbon also say something like, “You’re playing with fire” (which made me perk up my ears, given previous discussions!) When you mentioned ‘Torch’, I’m afraid I took it in a slightly more violent (erk) way – my immediate reaction was that something’s going to go up in flames…

    And as for the whole behind-the-scenes aspect… Well, I suppose the whole storyline with the FBI/Kirland is pretty much behind the scenes, too! As is the poker game and what goes on there… And finally Jane himself, of course – he’s somewhat of a man behind the mask himself! 😉

  • Rose UK

    P.S. Not to mention the ultimate man behind the scenes/puppet master – Mr Bruno Heller… 😉 (Come to think of it, didn’t he make a cameo appearance in one of the episdoes? I forget which.)

    Anyway, the theme of identity in TM is a very intriguing one indeed. You could fill a few pages on that idea alone!

  • valentinasweet

    jane and lisbon are like a pressure cooker now, I felt the coldness between them in the last few episodes is really obvious, I believe that sooner or later something will burst like a balloon and, if that is too inflated it then explodes, Jane and Lisbon have never behaved well with each other, I do not know about you, but I do not see him smile Jane to Lisbon for a while (apart from the scene kansas city song) and Lisbon as well, even though I miss their moments of laughter together , teasing and various tricks, I must say that I’m liking the situation as it now has to rain sometimes in heaven or not? particularly impressed me
    the coolness with which Jane responded to Lisbon during the balcony scene, Lisbon has accused the coup, poor lisbon face that she did after the bad response when he goes away, something has to understand, something you gotta see in next last episodes, I get the feeling that Kirkland will try to get close to lisbon because he knows that she knows much more about Jane and red john’s hint,what she does believe (bertram / ​​kirkland dialogue episode 5×16) it may be that there will be an “rapprochement” between Lisbon and kirkland and this will make jane become insane and he will blow the whole,

    I believe that in a show every move and action taken by the actors and because it has a meaning that sooner or later the viewers will see the reason for these acts, it is no coincidence that Jane showed jealousy kirkland and his recent connection with lisbon (5×08)
    kirkland play a very important role for our two heroes, at least I hope and believe,
    P.S.
    ok I’m a 100% shipper, I have discovered XD
    i think that the mentalist is one of the most beautiful show *-*
    forgive again for my bad english :p

  • Rose UK

    Yes, I wondered about the Furland thing, too. That’s got to come up again, surely?

  • Carla Oliveira

    Please, tell me: what XD means?

  • valentinasweet

    its e smile 🙂 (my japanese friend taught me )

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thank you. I’m brasilian. i haven’t been familiarized with idiomatic expressions, especially the internet. Sorry my ignorance.

  • valentinasweet

    i am italian 🙂 nice to meet you,
    oh please don’t worry 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    Nice to meet you, too.

  • kate

    I haven’t read all of the comments so may be repeating something someone else has said. If so, sorry.

    My take on Lisbon/Kirkland is that there was potential for a relationship at the start but that is now gone. In fact, it kind of disappeared after the hair fluff. The hair fluff showed Lisbon found him attractive. His coffee invitation could have been because Kirkland was thinking the same way, but given recent events, it was more likely a calculated invite to worm his way into her confidence and tap her for information about Jane and his RJ quest.

    Lisbon and Kirkland worked together to ‘rescue’ kidnap victim Jane. Lisbon would have worked with anyone to find Jane, at least when she truly believed he was in danger. I don’t recall any signals from her during that episode that she liked Kirkland. She kept things from him. Which indicates to me she didn’t trust him fully. I did love the signs of jealousy from Jane though 🙂

    And now, not pointing to anything in particular, I don’t have the sense Lisbon has any thought that Kirkland is potential dating material. He is someone she is forced to work and get along with given their respective positions in law enforcement. This is the practical reason for her exhorting Jane to behave and (sort of) defending Kirkland’s role in the Lennon thing. Which in and of itself may drive a wedge between Jane and Lisbon unless/until Jane convince her that Kirkland is an evil, murderous bad guy. Assuming she needs convincing.

    I don’t see Lisbon looking to alien lizard Kirkland for romance. It would strain credulity too much if the writers take us there. Just my take.

  • kate

    Suzjazz I remember it like you do. Jane said he didn’t know what as in the Tupperware. But LaRoche doesn’t know Jane doesn’t know so thinks he owes Jane for not revealing.

    Also agree on Jane’s long game with Lisbon. To a point. He may be pretending he has no feelings for her – or even denying those feelings to himself – to protect her. But I’m not sure he’s doing it to keep the RJ case to himself from a purely selfish perspective. Possibly because in so doing he protects Lisbon.

    I keep trying to make sense of the two Janes we’ve been given by the writers: one, Jane denying any feelings for Lisbon and determined to get RJ at all costs; and the softer, subconscious Jane we saw in his interchanges with Charlotte and the ‘Love you’ he gave to Lisbon then pretended to forget. One is truly stuck in neutral, the other shows a glimmer of hope for happiness (and relationship with our Lisbon?) beyond RJ. The two don’t reconcile very easily. Perhaps Jane flips between them both in the arc of the story and on an internal level. It is a struggle for sure and one inconsistency I find difficult.

    This season has definitely had a dark tone compared to others as promised at the start. I wonder if it will end that way though. I hope not from a personal perspective and because I fear it would alienate a lot of viewers. There are many out there who hate the RJ arc (not I), love the lighthearted mischievous Jane and/or want to see a Lisbon/Jane romance. I think there would be many who stop watching if the season finale gives us a rupture in the J/L relationship.

    Totally agree that I want something good for Jane once his ordeal is done. And, yes, RJ cannot go to jail.

  • kate

    And what about Brenda? Will we see her get her comeuppance? They can’t let that drop can they?

  • kate

    Windsparrow I think you are right on the money here.

    A few glimpses of hidden/subsumed feelings coming to the surface and Jane showing a some tenderness wouldn’t be unwelcome however :). And I do think those are necessaries to maintain viewership, even if they are ambiguous.

    The Mentalist does ambiguous often and intentionally. Keeps options open. Clever writers.

  • kate

    I want to add udos and thanks for reviewbrain’s and violet’s reviews, be they mini, full or in between, and the insightful comments that I read here. All give me much (more) to ponder about this terrific, intelligent show. Love it!

  • Carla Oliveira

    I do agree.

  • ortforshort

    Did anybody notice that Kirkland talks exactly like Christopher Walken? I suspect Walken of being Red John

  • iiifrogs

    I ABSOLUTELY noticed it, but not until he was in Lisbon’s office that time she fluffed her hair for him. I don’t know if it’s the character or the actor himself who has a slight speech problem. Kind of a lisp or something (not a speech therapist) on the r, w and I think s. Anyway, He’s obviously had speech therapy and the way he enunciates and phrases, even the kind of hoarse voice quality, sounds very much like Christopher Walken to me!

  • kate

    Oooh … Christopher Walken as RJ. That would be cool and a real coup.

  • phoenixx

    The actress tweeted that she’ll be back in ep 20 or 21 – not sure which one it was.

  • phoenixx

    First of all thanks for the great review!!! =)

    Don’t know if anyone mentioned it in correspondence with the balcony scene but i thought it was interesting that Lisbon referred to Jane to the producer and the others as a “consultant” instead of “partner/colleague” as she did in the rest of the season so far. Together with their talk on the balcony I think it shows that she really is concerned about the teams reputation, they didn’t like the way Jane spoke to them when they asked her and she obviously decided to put a bit of a distance between the team (CBI) and Jane (Jane’s behaviour). Though i thought before she chose to go with the “consultant” she hesitated a moment as if she was deciding but maybe that’s just me, have to watch again.

    Well not gonna mention Kirkland – what a creep, but love Kevin Corrigan, he’s brilliant. Just, the way he spoke to Lennon, he sounded like a hypnotist or someone from a sect would, imho. But don’t think he’s RJ, probably not even a minion but then O’laughlin was quite obvious too and he was one, soooo, you never know with the writers.

  • phoenixx

    Makes sense especially with the phone call before, where she stated she trusts Kirkland to handle the Lennon-case and he says he disagrees. So Jane already thought she “trusts” Kirkland and then when she again mentioned Kirkland he got the wrong idea of her statement.

  • OldMan

    After Patrick crashes into the tree, after Lorelei “escapes”:

    LISBON: Jane! He’s okay.
    JANE: Have you got her?
    LISBON: Not yet.
    JANE: She’s… She’s on foot.
    KIRKLAND: Agent Kirkland, Homeland Security. I need rescue south of Orr lake, forest road 42 north 12.
    JANE: Who is that guy?
    LISBON:Don’t talk. Help is on the way.
    JANE: Hurts.
    LISBON: Shh, it’s okay.

    Why does Patrick not recognize Kirkland? They have met before. Why was Patrick unsure if he had ever met Kirkland, years ago, when they first met? Why was Kirkland concerned that Lennon “recognized” him? A lot of odd questions about who does, and does not, recognize Kirkland.

    When Patrick and Kirkland meet:

    Kirkland: Sorry Mister Jane.
    Patrick: Do I know you?
    Kirkland: No. But I know you.

  • estatica

    In the scene, Jane is still in the car, injured, and so he can’t really see much what’s going on in the back. He hears Kirkland, but he can’t see him. I assume that, once they got him out of the car, he could easily see who he was. I also imagine Jane must have seen him talking to Lisbon during the whole operation, or that she mentioned Kirkland’s collaboration with the CBI while they were trying to rescue him. This explains why Jane mentioned him (sounding quite jealous too) in the last scene of that episode, saying “…and you didn’t tell your new best friend Kirkland either.”

  • OldMan

    Forgive me if I seem to be quibbling here, but Patrick was the Boy Wonder in the Carnival, who did a lot of what he did blind-folded. His training included both audio and visual. His memory palace should contain Kirkland’s voice. He should not need visual confirmation. Now, granted, he was injured, dazed, after he crashed the car. But the way his brain works it should have been telling him that he “knows” that voice, and he hears that voice identify “itself” as “Agent Kirkland, Homeland Security…” Ah, he should be thinking, THAT’S who it was I met in the CBI hallway all those years ago!

    After Kirkland’s strange conversation with Lennon, which seemed to be centered on “do you know me?”, I researched other conversations Kirkland has had involving “do you know me”, or “do I know you?”. Maybe it is just a recurring theme by the writers. Maybe not. In the second conversation I quote above in my first blog, Kirkland says “Sorry Mr.Jane.”, Patrick asks “Do I know you?, to which Kirkland responds “No. But I know you.” He does not say “I know your reputation, read about you, saw you on television…”, he says “…I KNOW YOU.”

    Kirkland has been involved in the TM story-line for a very long time (his meeting with FBI Director Alexa Schultz in Rd Dawn, her talk with Minelli…) One friend of mine suggests that Kirkland knows Patrick from the insane asylum, but that Patrick does not remember – or never saw Kirkland. Kirkland saw Patrick, was part of his “recovery” – and possibly part of implanting into Patrick an obsession with finding/killing Red John. Possibly. Whatever he is up to he has been doing it since before Patrick first walked into CBI.

    Sorry for the long post.

  • Lou Ann

    Lord, I love this blog. What a brilliant congregation of reviewers. Shall we call ourselves “fun (with) thementalists?” (NOT putting myself in the brilliant category, though.)

  • Carla Oliveira

    Neither do I.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    But Kirkland never introduced himself properly to Jane. That’s why I don’t think he asked “who is that guy” because he didn’t recognize him, but rather because he was wondering something along the lines of “who is really that guy/ what is he doing here/ what is his goal?”. After all, when Jane met him in the CBI building, Kirkland was visiting Lisbon because of the Volker case (assuming Jane asked her what this stranger was doing in the bullpen): it wasn’t obvious that he would also be taking an interest in the Lorelei’s case. That had to be at least a bit unexpected.
    But yes, the writers are playing with the theme of Bob’s identity here: that’s the question the viewers are wondering (who is really Kirkland? A good guy, a mole or RJ?)…

  • Suzanne Davis

    Love the National Geographic line! I hope you are right about J and L. I also think J might be trying to protect her–either by giving her deniability or from RJ (although RJ undoubtedly knows he cares about L, and has his own reasons for not trying to kill her up to this point; he probably wants to use her as bait for J) The Mentalist is so ambiguous. Maybe that’s why we love it?

  • Suzanne Davis

    So Jane never shook hands with Kirkland?

  • Suzanne Davis

    Sono stata a Roma 1967 quando avevo 14 anni con mia famiglia e ho studiato italiano a l’università molti anni fa! Mi dispiace, scrivo molto male. ( I am trying to improve my Italian by studying online!) Your English is WAY better than my Italian. And I agree with your comments.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Very good points, Rose! Especially the “something’s going to go up in flames” part, love it! 😀

    It’s a bit of a paradox, but even though Jane is indeed the “man behind a mask” (liar, conman, keeping an hidden agenda), it seems that he’s becoming a bit less of a mystery now, as a character for us viewers as well as a person for Lisbon. He tends to come clean more easily than he did at the very beginning and we can see more frequently how he truly feels, imho. On the other hand, the other characters are becoming increasingly unreadable, may they be Lisbon (and her complex feelings), or the suspicious characters around them :Brenda, Kirkland, Bertram… everyone seems to be having an hidden agenda, contrary to Minelli or Hightower for instance, who were more straightforward. Or maybe I’m reading too much into it, I don’t know.

  • Suzanne Davis

    Unless it’s not a permanent falling out. I could not stop watching even if i wanted to–I am hopelessly addicted to this series.

  • Suzanne Davis

    The plastic surgery idea is brilliant! Of course RJ would have to change his appearance…that is, if Kirkland is RJ.

  • Suzanne Davis

    That would be brilliant. I can totally picture Walken as RJ. Except he might be too tall.

  • Suzanne Davis

    Sorry, my post ended up after the wrong comment…

  • OldMan

    NOT RJ, to me, at least. But, still, obviously someone who is very interested in these 2: Red John and Patrick Jane.

  • Suzanne Davis

    Is it me, or does Jane seem to have a blind spot when it comes to being suspicious of Kirkland? Has he ruled Kirkland out because they didn’t shake hands? Kirkland has been dropping RJ type hints all over the place, and if he isn’t RJ, he certainly seems like someone who knows where to find RJ.

  • Suzanne Davis

    Wow, Valentina, great analysis! I’ve watched every Mentalist episode since Season 1 more than once–some even 3 times–and each time I see something i did not notice before. Jane IS jealous of Kirkland, Kirkland is very likely to have his eyes on Lisbon and he may do what Craig O’Laughlin did to Van Pelt (or at least try to win Lisbon’s affections.) I am not a 100% shipper but I do want J and L to come together in a romantic relationship. They have to have it out in a huge fight at some point. I mean, come on, almost 10 years of hiding their feelings for one another, even sleeping with other people! If the writers do not honor this, then the show will be ruined. All signs have pointed toward a J/L pairing since the beginning. It’s quite revealing that in the episode showing Jane’s first days at the CBI, he says “Theresa is a lovely name” as he walks out the door. Quite possibly love at first sight.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    … Interested enough to commit a murder, hence impeding the latter from discovering the former’s identity… 😉

  • Rose UK

    Poor Patrick; been downgraded so soon. Haha!

  • anomalycommenter

    Violet, I always enjoy seeing your references to literature, and something you said before about the “Adventure of the Empty House” has tickled my curiosity, probably there is nothing to it like my other theories, but let me say it even if just for relieving my mind:

    There are some things in that story that made me think again, that first adventure after the return of Sherlock Holmes involves capturing Colonel Moran who was a close associate and the right hand of Professor Moriarty and whom Holmes suspected of being responsible for murdering a fellow card player, he was also a tiger hunter, and to arrest him in the act of committing a second crime Holmes prepares a wax bust of himself as bait to lure him out. Holmes considers an empty house across the street from his old quarters in Baker Street as an observation post, and to reach that place, chooses a back route involving crossing a Manchester Street! Now is that not interesting? Or am I being paranoid?

    Also I’m very grateful to Rose UK for her insightful ideas! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    Who sent him screw up? haha.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I do not know, but I still think Jane mysterious with their feelings. I do not know if I believe in what he often speaks.

  • anomalycommenter

    As for the reason behind Jane’s question about the identity of this mysterious man all of your assumptions Violet, estatica, and OldMan seem reasonable to me. It could even be a mix of all those feelings. Maybe it was the writers’ intention that Jane’s true feelings toward him to be as vague as his true identity is to us.

    Also I’m very glad to see OldMan back here commenting. Your comment under the ‘Red Barn’ review was a real eye-opener! And I tend to agree with you that Kirkland’s old interest in Jane seems to be more than a passive one.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Yes, he’s still mysterious. But he tells Lisbon more easily about what is on his mind, he tells her about his theories on RJ; he didn’t do that in S3 for instance. At that time, he was repeating to Hightower and Minelli that he was “better off alone”. Now he tells her about Lorelei (albeit reluctantly) and about his list. Both things were true.
    Plus, we have better insight on his feelings: at the beginning of the show, we didn’t know at first that he liked Kristina, nor how he really felt about Sophie Miller (was it a crush, affection, friendship, gratitude?). Now? He told Lisbon that he loved her –and denied remembering it, but that’s another point -, he admitted to liking Lorelei and to have feelings for her. He has shown signs of rethinking his life and setting his sights on personal matters (“Charlotte” was a figment of his imagination: what she said was coming straight from his mind). That’s progress, I think… We are able to better know how he feels.
    On the other hand, without mentioning suspicious characters (who have to be mysterious to remain suspicious), what do we know about Lisbon’s feelings for instance? We aren’t even able to really determine what she thinks about Kirkland (at least in a way that gains unanimous agreement), let alone what she feels for Jane… 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Very interesting Windsparrow! Also another thing that drew my attention to his face was his queer facial gestures.

  • Rose UK

    @ Violet: Perhaps that’s part of the arc; Jane has been trying to teach Lisbon his ways, and as he gets more desperate (or to be slightly more optimistic about it, further along the path to REDemption) so he becomes more predictable. Yin and yang. Like Suz said above, I’d love to get some more backstory on Lisbon. And indeed Grace – she’s the only team member that we haven’t really seen in a personal setting (we’ve had glimpses of Cho and Rigsby’s home lives, at least). Addendum: can we get some love for the Grace/Teresa hug?! That was so sweet and shows how far Lisbon has come in her personal relationships.

    @ Anomaly: Oho! Goodness me, how funny. I think I need to read some more Holmes – it’s part of my cultural heritage, for gawd’s sake! Also Heller did state in an interview that he wanted to create a Holmes-esque character, so it wouldn’t surprise me if those little details are intentional! Nice deductive work; you and Violet and ReviewBrain need to team up as the literary detectives. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Well, I don’t know. But if you’re referring to that moment in the car he hasn’t had enough time to use that handshaking information yet. And if you’re speaking generally, actually he is suspicious of Kirkland for one reason or another, and more so after this episode, as he explicitly opposed Lisbon about trusting him with handling Lennon. But it is not very clear as to how much that handshaking info is applicable in his case.

  • ortforshort

    Not only that, he would be able to explain it all away in such a manner that not only would we not hate him, we would all become RJ disciples

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Very, very intriguing! The Manchester Street reference is pretty interesting; even more since if I’m not mistaken the Manchester United soccer (/football) club is called the Red Devils: that would make it a double reference (if the writers are really quoting SH that meticulously; otherwise it makes for a very amusing coincidence). And it’s probably a huge Red Hearing too… 😉
    But, yes it’s very remarkable that you mention Colonel Moran… We already have a Holmes, a Watson and a Moriarty on the show… could it be now that Kirkland is Moran? Moriarty’s calculating, murderous, faithful right-hand man?

    (Also, Anomaly and Rose, you’re both very kind, thanks… :D)

  • Rose UK

    Funnily enough, Roberto MANCINI is the manager for Manchester City (not Utd). I don’t know why I know this; I hate football. Also irrelevant!

  • ortforshort

    We may be Fun-duh-Mentalists

  • OldMan

    Season 5 episode 7 “If It Bleeds, it Leads”: they shake hands.

  • ortforshort

    I can see Walken in the interrogation room,
    Jane, you putz, I’ve been leaving clues everywhere for you.
    The Smiley Face, that’s me! Don’t you see the resemblance? I didn’t want to put the hair on it because that would have been tooo easy.
    And I sent Kirkland who even talks like me!
    And don’t you remember when I shook your hand? I’m a celebrity for chrissakes, how could you forget?

    And what about Lisbon?
    I’ve been waiting for you to make a move on her so that we could wrap this thing up. You’re a putz!

    It would be a classic episode

  • bloomingviolet2013

    “I have two words to say about Kirkland asking Lennon if he recognized him before killing him: Plastic Surgery.”

    Very clever. Even more intriguing since, if I’m not mistaken, Carter mentioned to Jane that he/RJ planned to change his face when he would retire…

    Just a question about this possible new identity: does anyone remember if there was a defined timeline for Miranda’s murder? I can’t find it…. I mean, supposing that Kirkland is RJ: is that

    – 1) Jason meeting RJ at least once with another appearance; 2) Kirkland watching Jane in ‘Red Dawn’ ? (= RJ changed his identity in between and him watching Jane has an ominous meaning).

    – Or rather 1) Kirkland watching Jane; 2) Jason meeting RJ with another face? (= the “Kirkland” in ‘Red Dawn’ may not be our Kirkland; RJ could have killed the man and taken his identity).

    Not that I’m convinced that one of those two possibilities is more plausible than the other, but Windsparrow’s theory is too interesting not to be explored a bit. 😉

    Also, there may be another –less thrilling- explanation for Kirkland waiting for Jason to woke from the coma: he couldn’t approach the man without giving a good reason. Jason was watched alternatively by Jane, by the nurse and probably by cops too. Entering the room of a man who was still unconscious would have been too suspicious: waiting to be called in it by the nurse was much more discreet. Not to mention it was more suspenseful for us viewers if we were waiting to know what Jason would reveal to Jane… 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    just LOL XD
    “we would all become RJ disciples”, that really cracked me up! If only Jane could wear the Indian headdress he had in a earlier episode during that scene, that would just be… utterly perfect! XD

  • III Frogs

    This is true. It happened below camera, but it’s very clear Kirkland and Jane shake hands in the hallway after Jane turns back to ask if he knows Kirkland.

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you both, very much! And to have some more “irrelevant” fun there is a 1962 movie by the name of “Days of Wine and Roses” featuring a song by the same name, which was written by Henry Mancini! 😉

    (Reference? Wikipedia of course!)

  • SteveK2013

    If, and only if, Jason was a real member of RJ’s network. We realized that the driver, who drove Lorelei to a federal prison, was blackmailed by an FBI agent. What if Kirkland, who has all RJ files, setup the whole scene so Lorelei would reveal or kill RJ? I mean what if RJ didn’t really kill Lorelei’s sister?

  • Carla Oliveira

    But even this confession on the Lisbon Lorelai seems to be just because she didn’t believe the denials of him. I’m Not sure if he was sincere. He showed no particular feelings for Lorelai when she died. That’s the feeling I had. I believe in the Lisbon declaration because it was something said in the heat of the moment without planning. There he was sincere.

  • P

    Now that is an intriguing theory. I like how you think! Don’t just mindlessly accept things as presented, but question all the assumptions. The only reason I doubt the theory is that Lennon admitted that RJ killed Lorelei’s sister. Of course, he was being tortured, and evidence given under torture is notoriously unreliable. But still…

    But regardless of whether or not your theory it is true, I do think the fact that Kirkland supplied the crime scene photo is strong evidence that Kirkland is not Red John. Why would Red John give Lisbon a photo linking himself to Lorelei’s sister’s death, knowing that Jane is with Lorelei and will certainly pass that info on to her? He would not. In fact, assuming that Red John’s minions know Red John used the Roy alias (which is debatable- maybe they do, maybe they don’t, maybe only some do), a minion would also not pass on that information. I think this really supports any of the theories in which Kirkland is not on Red John’s side.

  • anomalycommenter

    Wow! what an accurate description of us, Lou Ann and ortforshort! 🙂

  • P

    Just realized I misread your post…I read Kirkland where you wrote Jason. I like this version even better! It is plausible.. Kirkland could have used Jason to play Lorelei. The only thing I’m not sure about is this: he would have needed to set this up ahead of time. Lorelei just escaped from prison the day before Kirkland gave that photo to Lisbon. That would have given Kirkland less than a day to fake the photo and get the pieces into place. UNLESS, he knew that Jane was breaking her out before it happened. The only way he could know that is if Bret Stiles, or someone else from Visualize told him. If so, things get very interesting very fast. Is there a split within Visualize…some people working for RJ, some secretly against? Or is Stiles himself secretly working against RJ? Or being blackmailed by Kirkland? Either way, Jane is being used as a patsy to help accomplish his goals.

  • thebeatboy

    Hi 😀

    I’m so glad that you wrote a review for this episode. I would like to make some comments.

    I was surprised that Lisbon told Jane to let Kirkland handle Jason. Yet Lisbon didn’t wait for Kirkland to handle the Volker case? However as another fan pointed out, (Jordan) perhaps Lisbon recommended to allow Kirkland handle Jason because Jane tends to lose control when he gets closer to finding RJ.

    . I don’t think Lisbon is interested in Kirkland at the moment, from the cold comments she gave to Kirkland while she spoke to him in Bertram’s office. Lisbon getting with Kirkland is not something that I really would want to see.

    I was also surprised that Kirkland ending up killing Jason? It is puzzling that he asked Jason if he remembered ever seeing him?

    Could it be that Kirkland knows the identity of Red John but for some reason he is trying to keep it from Jane to protect him in some way?

    I recently resaw the episode where Tod Johnson is arrested. Near the end in the room, Tod Johnson says to Jane, – there IS a big Picture, ((IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND )) – does this phrase mean something regarding how powerful Red John is?

    It would seem that Red John must indeed have a helper/friend high up.

  • windsparrow

    ortforshort, you win. Best. Comment. Ever. You win the internet. You win everything. I laughed so hard after reading this comment that my cats fled the room, and a few minutes later, the Man asked why I was laughing and if I was alright. It was a couple more minutes before I could answer him. I’d still be laughing now only my abdominal muscles are aching and I am suppressing the laughter.

  • suzjazz

    Gave me a much-needed laughing spell!

  • valentinasweet

    quindi sei stata a roma? Rome is my favorite italian city,so amazinga nd magic 🙂 i love rome,but i don’t live to rome,unfortunalety 😦
    thank you for your comment 🙂
    and thank you for you compliments about my english also if i don’t think it is perfect 😦
    but i try my best 🙂

  • valentinasweet

    thanks for your comment, I watched the show so many times that I happen to predict their moves, but only sometimes;)
    I think the phrase jane episode 5×08 (your new best friend kirkland) has been inserted to “pave” the way for a “later” because we look at the reality, the phrase Jane was put there a little pointless , which means “and you have not even told your new best friend kirkland”? it is normal that Lisbon would not reveal anything to kirkland it to anyone else and he “knows” so that phrase has no “sense” in the context of the discussion between the two, but it makes sense if we think that he has said because “jealous” and I wonder if patrick never showed jealousy towards lisbon in other cases “the most obvious” such as Mashburn, why jane has shown this apparent “jealousy” for someone who only has “cooperated” with lisbon to find himself?
    I think that Lisbon is attracted to kirkland, nothing special, but still is a little attracted, apart from her fluffy hairs, in the office of Bertram (5×16) kirkland she asked why he had to take up the case lorelei, kirkland replied to her in a vague and Lisbon blinked a little laugh and then tell him that before then wanted to learn his trick of “answer” but “no answer” really,
    I do not know but I’m sure something will happen, partly because the tension between the two (J / L) trovvo is evident in the last episode, maybe in episode 19 will be all roses as episode 17,but being that there will still be kirkland I think it will create yet another tension between Jane and Lisbon, maybe I’m wrong, but my feelings are just nothing concrete, just feelings 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    Sorry! it actually was Violet who reminded us about a film with that name. That must have been the true source of the info without me realizing. 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    And Kirkland learned from his past interactions with Lisbon and Jane (in Volker and Lorelei’s cases) not to let those perpetrators he has an eye on become “the play thing of monsters” by them; whatever that means?!

    And I hope you are right about the big picture being mind blowing and Red John’s identity doesn’t turn out to be a disappointment as Heller said somewhere before!

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Actually, it was Reviewbrain. She wrote the (great) review for ‘Days of Wine and Roses’. 😉
    It’s amusing that there are so many “Mancinis” involved. It’s possible that one of those has inspired the name for Gabe’s character, or it could have been yet another one… most of all iit makes me wonder how many “Janes” we could gather, lol! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    Hi Valentina,
    Could I have your email to respond? It’s hard doing it from Reviewbrain’s blog and WordPress.
    We lived on Via Cola di Rienzo (vicino a San Pietro)
    I was last there in 1995 (too long ago!) I am a jazz pianist and hope to get gigs in Umbria or other places in Italy with jazz festivals. I love Italy SO much.
    It’s great to hear from a Mentalist fan in another country! I am impressed that you are able to follow it in English–I could never do that if the show were in Italian (unless there were subtitles.) I really like your analysis of the show. I hope that Lisbon and Jane have a huge fight and she punches him in the nose again–he has been despicable [spregevole, riprovevole] to her.
    I will try to write more in Italian but I am out of practice. Ciao!

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, my apologies! Seems I’m in urgent need of a functioning memory palace! 🙂

  • valentinasweet

    oh with pleasure:)
    this is my email:
    mylovelylunetta@yahoo.it

    i am glad to hear that you like italy 🙂
    oh yes,follow the mentalist in english is not so easy for me….but i try my best for uderstand the episode 🙂
    hear you
    ciao 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    In ‘Red Sails in the Sunset’ when Jane calls Lisbon from a public phone outside of the motel that he and Lorelei was staying in, she informs him that Miranda’s death happened 5 years ago. Now the question is when exactly did Jane join the CBI? It’s probably more than approximately 5 years (the number of series seasons up until now) and less than 10 years (when Lisbon joined the CBI). Can anybody narrow it down any further?

  • reviewbrain

    If i remember correctly, my opinion was nine years. I think I explained why in the Red Dawn Review…getting old :p

  • OldMan

    FANtastic

  • anomalycommenter

    On the contrary, you are very sharp! Very good analysis back then. It is me that feels his brain is ceasing to function properly, as is evident by my recent posts! 🙂

  • mosquitoinuk

    This is most probably totally and utterly irrelevant but I noticed (after re-watching last night) that Kirkland touched Patrick’s arm as he walked off, as Patrick has done in the past to other people (I remember a young woman in one of the very first episodes, can’t remember which one) to either hypnotise them or for them to remember/forget things. He also touched him at the beginning of the episode after saying something like “you are a mess”.

    In any case, I though Kirkland’s ‘tactile’ approach to Jane was a bit…disconcerting to say the least. Why the physical proximity? is this an alpha-male thing, trying to destabilise Jane or something else? Red herring do you think?

    The supposed RJ (we still don’t know if there is a one RJ or what is it, to be frank) that rescued Jane that time from the copycats (“Red Sky in the Morning”) got also awfully close…and also asked “do you know who I am”? spooky.

    After Kirkland leaves, Jane looks at him like he’s figuring something out.

    Let’s see where this long and winding path takes us…

  • SteveK2013

    Jane spent hours with Lorelei on their way to the cabin. For some reasons, he exluded almost a thousand people. The list ended up with 408 suspects. Why did Jane exclude people he had brief encounters with? I think it’s due to more info given by Lorelei on their way to the cabin (which was never revealed to us). I think that “brief encounter” definition should apply to Kirkland, who (by then) had met Jane once only and just days before Jane broke Lorelei out of jail. Lisbon doesn’t know everything and Jane is still hiding info from her. We didn’t know that Jane had an agreement with Lorelei to identify RJ to him if he was behind her sister’s death. No such agreement was ever revealed to us.

  • C Hill

    not all brief encounters are created equal — certainly in the case of a high end homeland security official.

    it was noted earlier that kirkland was making a habit of invading jane’s personal space. it’s certainly worth noting and discussing. it certainly, along with kirkland’s initial “i know you, mr jane”, indicates that kirkland, in addition to knowing jane by keeping tabs on him, may have a relationship further back with jane (if we consider the plastic surgery angle).

  • windsparrow

    “We didn’t know that Jane had an agreement with Lorelei to identify RJ to him if he was behind her sister’s death. No such agreement was ever revealed to us.”

    I think the agreement was not revealed to us because it was not so much an agreement between Jane and Loralei as an assumption on Jane’s part that if Loralei finds out Red John raped and killed her sister in order to turn her into a disciple, then she would naturally betray RJ by revealing his identity to Jane – either out of gratitude to Jane for opening her eyes or because Jane would supplant RJ in Loralei’s mind as her leader. After all, if she is weak enough into RJ’s cult then she must need someone in that role (Jane might think).

  • Rose UK

    Interesting take, Mosquito! Also echoes of Lisbon’s “Clean yourself up; you’re a mess” remark in Red Dawn.

  • anomalycommenter

    Both of you are definitely on to something! Did Lennon recognize Kirkland at the last moments of his life when Kirkland touched him and told him that ”I won’t leave you”?

  • Rose UK

    Are we saying that Kirkland is planting some sort of [post-hynotic] suggestion in Jane’s subconscious, as well as other people’s?? (I know a few people have touched on the, err, touching thing further above in the comments.) Could he be Visualise? Carny? That NLP group? Or is it all just smoke and mirrors? Roll on, next ep!

  • mosquitoinuk

    True true…Lisbon said that…nothing is coincidence in the mentalist, I wonder what that means!

    Hmmm…it is quite poignant actually in “Red Sky in the Morning” the way RJ spoke to Jane. Why, oh why is RJ asking Jane the same question that Kirkland asked Lennon? I swear I go backwards and forward with Kirkland as RJ. Can’t make up my mind but of course we all know this is the way the writers and BH want it 😉

  • valentinasweet

    yeah,i agree,nothing is a coincidence in TM everythinf has a goal….everything

  • mosquitoinuk

    I didn’t pick up on that, Kirkland touched Lennon? what is going on with this man! very tactile…it is all a pretence of course of “human warmth” now that we know what he’s capable of, but still. Kirkland touched Jane because he wanted to. I think there is something dodgy there…perhaps Rose is right in her comment (below) and Kirkland is Visualize?

  • mosquitoinuk

    I meant, comment ‘above’.

  • anomalycommenter

    Damn you Heller! You knew quite well what kind of episode to put before this three weeks looong hiatus! 🙂

  • Lou Ann

    Is it me, or has PJ STOPPED shaking hands with people?

  • anomalycommenter

    He may be less eager to do so, especially in the last two episodes. But if we consider all of the episodes after ‘Red Sails in the Sunset’, there are some instances of him shaking other people’s hands.

  • OldMan

    Forgive me for changing the topic of conversation. How is it Red John seems to know what people are doing, going to do, saying?: It occurred to me that he may be listening in on their cellphones, WHETHER THEY ARE TURNED OR NOT. I did some research and found this article from the year 2006:

    By Declan McCullagh and Anne Broache
    Staff Writers, CNET News…

    “The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone’s microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.

    The technique is called a “roving bug,” and was approved by top U.S. Department of Justice officials for use against members of a New York organized crime family who were wary of conventional surveillance techniques such as tailing a suspect or wiretapping him.

    Nextel cell phones owned by two alleged mobsters, John Ardito and his attorney Peter Peluso, were used by the FBI to listen in on nearby conversations. The FBI views Ardito as one of the most powerful men in the Genovese family, a major part of the national Mafia.

    The surveillance technique came to light in an opinion published this week by U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan. He ruled that the “roving bug” was legal because federal wiretapping law is broad enough to permit eavesdropping even of conversations that take place near a suspect’s cell phone.

    Kaplan’s opinion said that the eavesdropping technique “functioned whether the phone was powered on or off.” Some handsets can’t be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set.”

    Red John is probably listening in on conversations in the vicinity of cellphones. Like Patrick’s, Lisbon’s, etc. This may be part of the reason why he always seems to be one step ahead.
    Forgive the long post.

  • OldMan

    edit: WHETHER THEY ARE TURNED ON OR NOT

  • anomalycommenter

    Very nice and intriguing thoughts milaf, I do agree with most of what you said, I just have a little reservation about the fifth point you mentioned:

    The dramatic events at the end of this episode surly cast a shadow on the rest of it so much that for example I myself did not think about the rest of the episode as much as was deserved. You are absolutely right, most probably it was the intention of the writers for us to make a parallel between the main story of this episode and what is going on with Kirkland and Red John. But there is a subtle point here that makes a lot of difference. The invented Investor, Mr. Hanover, was supposed to be a real person with ‘Hanover’ as his actual surname. Red John on the other hand is not an invented or faked real name; it is just an alias, a pseudonym for whoever is behind his mask, being it a single person, an organization, or a group of people. Of course he is created character. He does not have and is not supposed to have any identification documents in the name of ‘Red John’, so in that sense it doesn’t make much sense to say that Red John may never have existed, because no one expected him to exist as a real person anyhow, but if what you are saying is that Red John may be not a single person, surly that may be true! But what about Kirkland? I think that the writers just wanted us to think more about his identity, to imagine him as Red John, his disciple, or someone else who probably knows RJ’s true identity.

    And thank you very much for sharing your interesting thoughts with us! 🙂

  • rita

    Wow….this is very….worrying!!!!

    Hafner (?) was a surveillance expert according to Lisbon in the season 4 premiere….AND he is a member of Visualize….and Visualize and Red John seem to be intertwined somehow.

  • OldMan

    Well, I’m no expert. But, the technology today does not require that you have possession of the cellphone you want to tap:

    “By Erik Arvidson, eHow Contributor:

    Spyware can be installed on a cellphone in multiple ways without the owner knowing it and without another person ever touching the phone. For example, the owner of the device could download an application that secretly contains spyware or viruses. Some spyware can be installed onto a cellphone remotely, over a cellular or Bluetooth connection, or even by a multimedia messaging service message that the cellphone owner opens.

    Law enforcement organizations sometimes use spyware to perform electronic surveillance on suspects. In December 2006, Cnet reported that the FBI had remotely installed software onto cellphones owned by a New York organized crime family. The spyware activated the phone’s microphone, transmitting audio of conversations to investigators, without the need to gain physical access to the devices, Cnet reported.”

    You can buy all that you need to do this on the internet. You need the cellphone number you want to tap. RJ is pretty clever. It is not the answer to all the questions, but may answer a few.

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    Hey Reviewbrain,
    Enjoyed reading your review yet again. Thank you.
    I know this doesn’t have much to do with episode 18 but, I was thinking that Lisbon could possibly be in danger this season finale.
    This isn’t just a storyline I would like for the series, I think there is plausible evidence of it.
    In episode 24 of season 4 there’s proof that Red John seems interested in Lisbon’s demise. Two rather ominous quotes from Lorelei suggest this.
    “Teresa Lisbon’s dead body would be the perfect thing.” and
    “I can’t think of anything else that would please him.”
    Two other quotes, which are not exactly threatening overtly, still, are somewhat disturbing in the way they were toned.
    (To Lisbon) “Good to meet you too. Heard so much about you.”
    “I think you do it to be close to Teresa Lisbon. I think you’re a little bit in love with her.”
    Something interesting about this season is that Lisbon seems much more involved in the Red John aspect of the show. Not just in the way that Jane is sharing more, but the people connected to Red John.
    First up there’s Kirkland (a definite mystery) who seems in some way or other to be linked to Red John. Not saying in cahoots just linked. Then Bertram who appears to be in with Kirkland. Haffner a member of Visualize and a possible friend to Red John. The last less obvious link is Mancini. The question about the Red John FBI mole has not been answered. In fact at this point it would seem that, in a way, Lisbon is more interwoven in the Red John situation than Jane is.
    Last point, and I do apologize for the length of this post. The season 5 finale title.
    SPOILER ALERT!
    Red John’s Rules. The title would suggest that the rules of the game Red John and Jane are playing will be dictated by the serial killer. Doesn’t that mean he would have to gain some kind of advantage over Jane? And as in the game of chess what better move than to threaten you opponents queen, in a manner of speaking.
    Please, anyone let me know what you think of this “evidence” I’ve gathered. Feel free to nip my theory in the bud.
    Again, love the review.
    Have a lovely day.
    Bonnie

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    Hey,
    Again not really relevant to episode 18 just something about the significant flowers on the show.
    One flower that has been very common in the series is the orchid. Even more so in season 5. (The Blue Orchid in 5.02, Orchid Lane in 5.16)
    The orchid means beauty, luxury, and love. The white orchid (the most common variety on the show) is innocence, humility, grace, kindness, truth, and new beginnings. The blue orchid is power, beauty, and peace. The yellow orchid is friendship.
    The hydrangea (in 3.22) conveys heartfelt deep feelings when given as a gift. Thankfulness to a person for their understanding nature. The blue hydrangea means comfort, peace, serenity, devotion, hope, and stability.
    Last is the gardenia (in 5.17) which has intense emotional meaning. Joy, purity, secret love, and thoughts of beauty.
    At first I thought the choice of flower was by chance. The flowers were just there. But after finding out their blooming season is May through July I had to revise my opinion.
    Any ideas anyone? The gardenia can’t have been referring to Pete because he had made his attraction to Lucy known.
    Sorry for my chattiness, but I thought the information about these flowers was very interesting. I’d be delighted if anyone wanted to offer any ideas about why the writers for The Mentalist have used these flowers.
    Bonnie

  • Donnamour1969

    I don’t think Kirkland had plastic surgery. He looked the same when Jane was hired on to the CBI years ago.

  • kate

    Bonnie I love your thoughts about Lisbon in peril and the symbolism of the flowers. Logical and appealing.

  • windsparrow

    I admit that the idea works only if Kirkland had the work done years ago OR if the Kirkland who was in that limo in Red Dawn is not this guy who indeed had work done in order to assume Kirkland’s identity. But I simply cannot think of any reason why he would need to know if Lennon recognized him so badly otherwise.

    I suppose Red John could have trading cards made of various allies and enemies to pass around to his minions, in which case Kirkland might want to know if he was in the pack (and was the bubble gum any good?).

  • P

    This plastic surgery theory does not make sense to me.

    1) We know Kirkland has looked the same at least for 9 years,

    2) We also know that Kirkland is the person who gave the Miranda Martins crime scene photo with Roy scratched into the floor to Lisbon. He knew Lisbon would tell Jane, and he knew Jane was with Lorelei and would certainly pass that little tidbit on to her.

    3) I assume (and I think it is a reasonable assumption) that Red John saw Lennon 5 years ago when he killed Miranda Martins. Therefore, if the 2004 Kirkland is the same person as 2013 Kirkland (i.e., nobody stole his identity via plastic surgery), then Kirkland cannot be RJ because Lennon would have recognized him.

    4) If RJ, or a minion, had plastic surgery recently in order to masquerade as Kirkland, why on earth would he give that photo to Lisbon? He would understand that would risk turning Lorelei against Red John and revealing his identity. He would never do that. So to me this is compelling evidence that Kirkland is not Red John. It is also a pretty good indication that he does not work for RJ.

  • valentinasweet

    amazing analysis, I really liked your analysis, I have always wanted to understand what it meant to the hydrangea that Jane gave to Lisbon in episode 3×22 and thanks to you now I know 🙂
    so do you really think the white gardenia in episode 5×17 had a special meaning?
    would be really nice

  • C Hill

    actually, lisbon’s brother used this cell phone trick in “where in the world is carmine o’brien” (great memory? no, it’s on right now 🙂 )

    and now jane bumps ron to steal the keys to the interview room…that pesky ron is everywhere!…lol…

    interesting theory on the phones. there are shots, at times, shot from above, especially in the squad room, that is to give the effect of someone listening/watching, at least that’s the impression it gives me.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Good recap, Bonnie Caledonia!
    If I’m not mistaken, each of these flowers has been discussed (or at least mentioned) on the review/comments of the corresponding episodes: the hydrangea in the review for ‘Rhapsody in Red’, the orchids in the comments for ‘Devil’s Cherry’ and the review for ‘There Will Be Blood’, the gardenia in many comments for ‘Red, White and Blue’.
    If I recall correctly, the interpretations so far are

    – the hydrangea symbolized Jane’s gratitude for Lisbon’s understanding and help in ‘Redacted’ when he told her a big part of what he knew about Todd Johnson’s death/ him hiring a burglar to break in LaRoche’s house (“thankfulness to a person for their understanding nature”). It also probably hinted at Grace’s wedding with O’Laughlin, since it’s a flower often used for ceremonies.

    – the orchid may be a recurring theme, as the butterfly was for Jane’s hope for a new beginning. It was used in Devil’s Cherry in association with said butterfly, when the episode expressed via Charlotte his ambivalence towards his quest (desire to let go/ inability to do so… cf.” new beginnings”, the meaning you pointed out for the white orchid in his hallucination) In ‘Red Lacquer Nail Polish’, it was not expressely mentioned, but Nero Wolfe’s mystery novels by Rex Stout are a reminder, as Nero Wolfe is a very-well known orchid lover (they are featured in many books). This literary reference seems to be more linked to RJ though than to a possible hope for a new life. The last allusion so far is ‘Orchid Lane’, where Jane met Lorelei and argued with Lisbon about “truth” (another meaning of the white orchid you mentioned). They are rather hard to interpret and I still don’t know if
    1) those flowers simply remind of his obsession, as opposed to hope (the butterfly)
    2) they express the ambivalence of his state of mind towards RJ ( both obsession *and* hope)
    3) they are connected to a “new beginning” in his quest (thus not for a new life like the butterfly)
    4) they have a deeper meaning concerning his relationship with Lisbon: two of those occurrences show a shift in Jane’s acknowledgement of their relation, both in ‘Devil’s Cherry’ and in ‘There Will Be Blood’, while Lisbon called him her “associate” in ‘Red Lacquer Nail Polish’…

    – the gardenia has been discussed as a hint at his “secret love” for Lisbon… mostly to tease the shippers, I guess.

    Therefore, it *seems* so far that those references held a deeper meaning than just flowers, even though it’s always rather hard to tell with something that is in fact nothing more that interpretation… In the same way, the “roses” seem to have been associated with Erica’s dangerous beauty (‘Every Rose Has Its Thorns’ and ‘War of The Roses’).

    Of course since, as I said, those are only interpretations, the discussion is open on every one of them. Feel free to add anything!

    (I hope it’s makes some sense, I’m pretty tired… 🙂 )

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    Thank you very much.

  • OldMan

    Well, the cell-phone technology Tommy uses requires that he actually have possession of the cellphone. The technology used by the FBI against the Genovese crime family did not. All you do is call and leave a message. This would be the type of technology Red John would be using: it activates your cellphone’s microphone (undetected by you) and works even if your cellphone is “off”. RJ then can hear what people are saying: he could what Patrick is saying and whoever is speaking around Patrick, if Patrick’s phone has downloaded the software RJ has sent to it.

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    I’m not sure. It doesn’t make sense to me that they would use a flower that was not blooming when the episode was filmed or aired.

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    Thank you for answering back. I don’t think I need to add anything. Very good. It made quite good sense even if you are tired.

  • OldMan

    I also get the feeling Lisbon will be the target (of someone) in this season’s last episode.

  • Lou Ann

    Continuing with the use of roses: “A Dozen Red Roses” in season 1, in which the wife is the murderer of the husband, as Erica was; and the yellow roses that were used twice in”His RIght Red Hand,” which, according to Wikipedia, symbolize (among other things) jealousy, infidelity, a broken heart, intense emotion, dying love, and extreme betrayal.

  • All-I-need

    This is a brilliant theory. I so hope you’re right – and if you are, Kirkland better pray that Jane won’t get wind of this or there will be hell to pay. We know how Jane gets about having his revenge taken from him….

  • suzjazz

    I think that it’s Lisbon who is carrying the torch for Jane, who seems lately to have forgotten that he loves Lisbon, if he really ever did. His behavior to her is hurtful and despicable sometimes. It’s obvious that Lisbon loves Jane, but Jane is very guarded about his feelings (possibly to protect Lisbon, but who knows? it’s clear that RJ knows they have feelings for each other) Jane’s obsession with revenge has eclipsed any normal feelings he might have. And I am afraid that if he doesn’t get the kind of revenge he wants (literally ripping RJ’s guts out) he will not get closure and be able to move on. He knows that Lisbon will do everything in her power to prevent him from killing RJ (because then she’d have to arrest Jane) so he is trying to distance himself from her and is hoping to pursue RJ without her. No good can come of this. Jane is bound to do something foolish like taking RJ on himself with no backup. I think this is where the RJ arc is leading. I am an expert on unrequited love, having experienced it with several men, unfortunately, so I know what the clues are that “he’s just not that into you.” I hope that Jane is just playing a very deep game and really does love Lisbon, but in my experience, with men, what you see is what you get. It’s unbelievable to me that he has asked Kristina on a date, had sex with, kissed, and hung out with Lorelei, and obviously has a thing for his psychiatrist also, and yet has never even kissed Lisbon. Not even on the cheek. In almost 10 years! But this is TV, fantasyland, and I guess it’s supposed to be romantic in some way, and he IS supposed to be carrying a torch for Lisbon.

  • suzjazz

    This is really scary stuff. Not only as it relates to the show, but if it’s really true, our privacy is being SERIOUSLY compromised.
    The writers are pushing our paranoia up to match Jane’s (at least my paranoia!) It seems that RJ has not only eyes and ears in the form of minions but is also listening in on cell phone conversations. He may even have installed video
    surveillance cameras in key places (say, Lisbon’s office and Jane’s attic) Therefore, we have to assume along with Jane that no place is safe from RJ. Maybe this is why he denied saying “I love you” to Lisbon. In any case, that secret is out, and I still don’t understand why Jane allowed himself to be drawn into that whole fake “bring me the head of Theresa Lisbon” thing. He must have been having a weak moment. If he had simply refused to do what Lorelei asked without giving a reason, RJ might still be in doubt as to whether J cares for L. And if, by being mean to Lisbon, Jane is now attempting to do damage control, it’s not going to work. RJ has a plan for Lisbon–if he had wanted to kill her, he would have attempted to by now. My guess is that he wants to use her as bait to lure Jane to where he is hiding and make J watch while he kills L. But this would be entirely too gruesome. I don’t think even the writers want this to happen. Getting back to topic: In the real world, it is all to easy to spy on anyone and find out where they live using AnyWho and Google Earth. Bugging cell phones with surreptitious software was bound to happen. And once we have given up our privacy, it’s going to be very hard to get it back–unless you decide to live completely off the grid.

  • suzjazz

    Right on the money, Bonnie. I believe that RJ is going to capture Lisbon at some point and use her as bait to lure Jane. Not sure if it will happen at the end of this season, though it would be a great cliffhanger (though a lot of people hate cliffhangers.) RJ is getting closer and closer to Lisbon through people he is connected with (not necessarily minions, but as you pointed out, Ray Haffner and Kirkland, who unquestionably have some connection with RJ.) Threatening your opponent’s queen is an excellent metaphor for this situation. And playing by RJ’s rules is what the TV series is predicated on. If Jane refused to play, there would be no series. Since the very revealing episode with Lorelei, Lisbon, and Jane in which Lorelei taunts Jane with “you’re a little bit in love with her” (which, by the way, he refuses to confirm or deny–I just watched that episode again) and the other hints (“I’ve heard so much about you”) happened last season, I think many fans may have forgotten exactly what was said. I thought this was a pivotal episode, myself. In dramatic terms, the plot arc appears to be moving inevitably toward a) a huge fight between J and L–I keep trying to imagine what would be said and how their out-of-control tempers would manifest–we’ve seen Lisbon lose it, but Jane, although he can be icy cold and witheringly sarcastic, has yet to lose it. and b) Lisbon in danger.
    Great analysis!

  • suzjazz

    While all of these interpretations of various flowers do make sense in the context of the action (also,Grace has a small orchid in a pot on her desk) I’m wondering if the writers researched the meanings of the various flowers in such detail. We fans who want to see J and L together in the end naturally want to see romantic significance and symbolism. There are hundreds of clues, suggestions, flirtations, occurrences and dialog cues which do more than suggest that they have romantic feelings for each other–we don’t need flowers to support our argument against the fans who believe that the J/L relationship is that of siblings or “a great friendship.” However, when you consider how many levels the plot runs on, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that the flowers all do have symbolic significance, and I will not rule it out.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    I’ve always though the ‘Dozen Red Roses’ was only a attribute to the wife character (the killer), because she was an actress: you often send flowers to famous artists such as the wife in this episode, like the hydrangeas were offered to the victim in ‘Rhapsody in Red’… The idea that it may be linked with Erica because both were manipulating seductresses who would use younger lovers is pretty intriguing. But I don’t know, it may be just a coincidence since those weren’t the only cases of murderous wives (“Ladies in Red’ for instance).
    Beside the roses for Erica weren’t labelled as “Red” ones: they were obviously, since every title contains an allusion to this color, but the fact that they were only implicitly red may give them a slightly different meaning. The flower represents Erica, and her “thorns” are a metaphor for her flaws: she’s beautiful, yet dangerous and she will hurt you if you are fool enough to believe you can grasp her. Like she hurt the men fool enough to think they had a hold on her and that she loved them back… Similarly, in ‘War of The Roses’, there is a battle of wits with Jane; she wants to regain her freedom and to prove him she’s smarter than him. But this historical English struggle for dominance opposed the Red Rose of Lancaster to the White Rose of York; in the show context it could also refer to the femme fatale Erica as opposed to the pure-hearted Teresa (white rose: purity), since they are implicitly compared in that episode: Lisbon was hurt that Jane pretended to “need” Erica and he was gleeful to notice her (jealous?) reaction.

    Also yellow roses always represented “friendship” for me, but both meaning work perfectly since Rebecca considered herself RJ’s friend and killed because of it. 🙂

  • zee

    ” there are shots, at times, shot from above, especially in the squad room, that is to give the effect of someone listening/watching, at least that’s the impression it gives me.”

    I felt this too C Hill. Especially *obvious* in Season 4 Red Rover Red Rover. The camera view from the top of Jane’s couch area pull back when Wainwright suspended Jane. Then as Jane taunted him again, you can see the camera view pulling forward, as if someone leaned on the second floor ledge again to see what the commotion below was about.

    Sometimes, I think we are the *eyes* of the RJ moles on this show.

  • estatica

    We still have a week before the next episode, so I can’t help but add that, throughout the season, we have seen constant references to the concept of family:

    – 5×02 – Jane’s imaginary relationship with Charlotte;
    – 5×03 – The murderer turned out to be the fiancée who held the power in the relationship;
    – 5×04 – Rigsby’s family – his relationship with his father and son;
    – 5×05 – Jane finds a new pretend family at the CBI;
    – 5×06 – The murderer was also a woman who wanted a new life, and wanted to break free from her partner, who never understood her;
    – 5×07 – errmm.. oops. Can’t spot anything relevant here;
    – 5×08 – Lisbon is faced with a Lorelei’s mother, who abandoned her child, and lost the other one because of that;
    – 5×09 – Lisbon is again faced with a dilemma and ends up acting so the older sister and her little brother aren’t torn apart;
    – 5×10 – The victim was separated from his family, so he had a pretend family;
    – 5×11 – The victim had been trying to do the right thing by coming clean with her family;
    – 5×12 – Jane reunites a kid with his mother;
    – 5×13 – The murderer turns out to be the daughter trying to protect her mother. Visualize is an organization which demands that all ties must be severed with one’s original family;
    – 5×14 – Dr. Kidd refers to the department as one happy family. Jane replies that people kill family members ever day;
    – 5×15 – The murderer wanted to frame her own family for the murder she committed so she could enjoy her life.
    – 5×16 – No words necessary. Lorelei acts because she needs to find the truth about her sister’s murder.
    – 5×17 – The murderer is trying to break free from the heavy burden his ex-wife left him. Cho’s notion of team reminds us why the CBI is also a pretend family. They all have each other’s backs.
    – 5×18 – The mother of the victim, again in front of Lisbon, tells that giving up her daughter was the hardest thing she ever did, that she needs to get on with the show to honour her child. Jane nods in agreement as he listens.

    Along with everything that’s been said in previous comments, I think these family moments could be foreshadowing Jane and Lisbon falling out or momentarily breaking free from each other, which will be the hardest thing they will have to do. Perhaps only after they created enough distance, they’ll be able to work out whatever is going on and really appreciate what they have. Not really sure how the writers will play this out or how long it will last, but it seems it needs to happen so their relationship can develop in season 6.

  • C Hill

    indeed, regarding these shots seemingly being the “eyes” of RJ or his followers.

    i also recall the camera work from the Bosco arc episodes, especially when Jane had planted the bug in Bosco’s office, where it strongly suggested someone was “watching the watcher”.

    what a nice run of discussion on this episode. clearly there’s no interest in the april 14 episode…lol.

  • anomalycommenter

    Very nice work estatica! Aside from the amazing list, you have brought up a very important and crucial issue; others must have said this before, but let me repeat it one more time that matters of family and troubled relationships have always been a core issue in ‘The Mentalist’. I mean, just consider the main characters, maybe aside from Van Pelt that we have no real info about her past, the rest of them did not have a normal or peaceful childhood and none of them have a normal relationship at the moment. And I have to say that your prediction of a temporary separation of Jane and Lisbon seems to be a real possibility. Ironically at the same time we see a possibility for Van Pelt and Rigsby to reengage!

    Well, I just want to borrow this theme to put forward yet another explanation for the strange behavior of Robert Kirkland. Forgive me if it seems to be very remote and improbable! But now that we have no solid info about him, such speculations could not do much harm. I think that there is a very slight chance of Kirkland’s involvement in the Red John’s matter because of family issues. This man really confuses me! But two brief moments made me think again, both of them in the episode 5×08, ‘Red Sails in the Sunset’: First is when Lisbon and Kirkland go to Lorelei’s mother’s to ask her about her daughter. In the middle of the talk Lisbon asks her about an old man seen with her in some photos, she sighs and says that it’s her husband that is away in Munich. Then camera shows Kirkland who also sighs (Involuntarily and suspicious!) Is it an indication that he knows this man? And what caused him to react similarly to Lorelei’s mother when he was mentioned? And the second moment is when the foster parents of Miranda showed up in Lisbon’s office to talk about her. I see Kirkland hiding some rage when they are speaking, right after her foster father says that ‘She turned out to be a very troubled girl, very unhappy.’ I know it’s very thin, but none the less! (Forgive me if someone has stated what I mentioned before, seems this episode’s review is breaking a record in the number of comments!) 🙂

    Thanks, and Keep up the good work! 🙂

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    Thanks! Like your comment too.

  • Julie

    i hate cliffhangers. They are just manipulation. I love bruno’s for not giving in to them. Something bruno’s said when he was talking about the blood will flow episode made me wonder if Lisbon may because target in the finale but can’t remember what it was.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Good analyse! 🙂 Indeed Lisbon ought to feel threatened. This season, she’s seen by the people around them as more than just the woman who allows Jane to do as he pleases: every player seems to gauge her reactions and to study how to use her to get to him, one way or another… Being so close to Jane is definitely becoming dangerous, even if she does not realizes it fully yet apparently.

    @ Suzjazz: a huge fight and Lisbon in danger… Yes, both are two very plausible possibilities.. 🙂

  • bloomingviolet2013

    This is great! Very detailed!
    I think this can be linked to Reviewbrain’s theory from a few episodes ago -late season 4-early season 5, I think-, that there was a budding opposition between flawed biological family and supportive chosen family. For instance: Rigsby, Lisbon and Jane come from dysfunctional families, but the bond they have formed as a team is very strong and allow them to find some measure of comfort and help in the others when some crisis arises. Recently the notion has been nuanced and twisted with RJ’s followers who seem to have cut ties with their families (Lorelei has showed that it may have been done voluntarily or not) to enrol in his troops… like they do in Visualize, since RJ probably has inspired himself from it. Even RJ probably fits this description: we can suppose he came from a dysfunctional family too, since he’s refered to as a “kid” left alone in a farm/sect, but he has built his own surrogate family, who is devoted to him. This particular vision of murderous surrogate families is illustrated thorough the season (the “happy family” described in 5×14 and in this episode by the publicist) and has comes to concurrence the positive one.

    Still, your analysis makes me realise that there seem to be a theme that completes this picture: recently the characters seem to try to mend their ties with their estranged/ lost family, like Jane finding comfort in his imaginary daughter who has forgiven him, and Rigsby overcoming his issues with his father before he dies… many plots seem to follow that line too (in your description: 5×11, 5×12, the mother and daughter in 5×13, the mother and daughter in this episode)…
    Are they trying to prepare us for something? A fall out (and a reconciliation maybe) between Jane and Lisbon as you suggested? Either way, it looks like there is something to study here (meaning I need to dig some more, lol…) Has someone any ideas? 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    (Sorry for the typos, was in a hurry… :p)

  • anomalycommenter

    Your ideas are great estatica and Violet. I responded but mine got suck for moderation! Appreciate it if you would kindly evaluate that when it passes this much dreaded filter! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    Sorry! Very,very sorry! Stuck is correct, please forgive me! 🙂

  • P

    I tend to agree. Can’t rule it out, but it seems unlikely to me that these choices are deliberate. Out of curiosity, I googled flower symbolism. It seems the majority can symbolize either love, passion or beauty. Most symbolize several things. Only a minority seem to symbolize negative things. I love symbolism when it is done well, but I tend to think the examples in this show are more coincidence than anything else. The writers often create plot holes and a lack of continuity that we have discussed often on this board. It would seem a little odd to me if they overlook these big, highly visible things, yet take the time to deliberately write in symbolic details less than 1% of the viewers will even notice, If that is the case, perhaps they should reconsider how they prioritize. But this is just my guess, and it certainly does no harm to speculate, so if people enjoy analyzing that aspect of the show, then I’m happy that they do even if I don’t draw the same conclusions.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    The thing is that it’s not the meaning of flowers that really matters in those readings, imho: except for the minor example that is the gardenia, the other occurrences work without knowing the meaning of the flowers involved. The hydrangea for instance: Jane could have expressed his gratitude with any other flower or gift, his gesture would have been as meaningful. After all, he gave her the shinny stone on the beach in the island episode and it was interpreted as a display of affection; if he had done it one or two episodes after ‘Redacted’, it would have felt like a gratitude gift too… Same with the orchids: they seem to be a recurring theme, even without a floral interpretation involved. In both cases, the fact that the traditional meaning of the flower also matches the circumstances is more of an added bonus, in my opinion. As for the roses, their meaning is so well-known it doesn’t take an expert to interpret them: red roses are the flower usually offered for Valentine’s Day for example. So, I guess they’re more playing with the way red roses are generally perceived (flower of seduction/ desire/ passion) than with the deeper meaning attached to them (unconditional love, respect, courage and so on).

    Anyway, of course you’re right and it’s awfully easy to get carried away with over-interpretations… 😉

  • Rose UK

    Re: family – what about Jane’s carny family? I don’t mean his dad, but rather the other members of that world. He cut ties with them too, but as we have seen with Lorelei & Rigsby & even Lisbon (with her brother), those kinds of ties don’t stay cut forever. So perhaps this element of his life will end up playing a role somewhere, somehow – as foreshadowed by the blatant carnival environment of Lorelei’s death scene. I took that not only as a reminder to Jane, but to us as well…

    Also the theme of family overlaps with the theme of trust – and what I wouldn’t give to see Jane put his full, absolute trust not only in Lisbon but also in Cho, Rigsby and Van Pelt! His “other” family! The best episodes for me are always when they operate as a real team; those moments when they’re all sat round at a table, whether in the Irish pub, or the bull pen or whatever.

  • estatica

    I went back to see those scenes and I think you might me on to something!

    Well, the first scene, back at Lorelei’s mother’s place, I can’t really detect anything suspicious. He seems to be reacting to the way Lisbon conducts the interview.

    But in the interview with Miranda’s parents, his reaction here seems to be of suppressed rage. Maybe we’re both seeing things?

    Also, when Lisbon and Kirkland are discussing Miranda, his expressions are very controlled. There are moments in which he seems genuinely sorry she died in such a cruel manner, but then he becomes detached as he gives more details.

    And then, we can’t forget the fact that he hands Lisbon the Red John incriminating photo. This, for me, is the main reason why I can’t see him working for Red John or being Red John himself. Surely he wouldn’t have given Lisbon, who is handling the Red John case, proof that Red John is involved in Miranda’s murder?

    And have I mentioned how much I like Kevin Corrigan’s performance on this show? The speech impediment, the ambiguous tone and body language in everything he does… Thank goodness we’ll get to see him again on the next episode. I can’t wait!

  • estatica

    I’ve come across several spoilers, which, for obvious reasons, can’t be mentioned in the discussion. But yes, it would make perfect sense if we learned more about Jane’s background, as well as his carnie family.

    One thing I find surprising about Lisbon’s character is how the writers barely mention her family, her brothers. She practically raised them and yet, the only pictures in her office desk are of dogs. Dogs, which we do know, she doesn’t own. We see some pictures at her apartment, but that’s it, basically. In all these years, we’ve only met her brother Tommy and her niece Annabelle. And in that episode, all we are told is that Lisbon simply doesn’t have the time to visit them.

    We know Lisbon is devoted to her team and considers them family, but why would she be so disconnected from the people she raised on her own? Perhaps this is a cultural thing and it’s harder from me to understand. Or maybe it simply isn’t relevant to the plot, so they leave her brothers out of the story.

  • suzjazz

    I was actually quite impressed that the writers used a Cole Porter song at all–music from the Great American Songbook is rare in any TV series, even though it is some of the best music ever written and part of our American musical heritage. I did not think much of the actress’ performance of the song–her voice is like nails on a blackboard, and her piano playing is vestigial at best–she played several wrong chords and left out the correct chords (I just re-watched the episode last night to make sure that I was not being extra judgmental.) I have accompanied many, many singers, so I know what I am talking about. I also have the credentials of being a professor at Berklee College of Music. But feel free to disagree! Jane says that her singing is “beautiful,” so obviously he doesn’t know what the song should sound like. Or maybe he was flattering her so as to get at the true story. Poor Lisbon’s consternation is a pitiable sight. I wonder why cops never apologize when they accuse the wrong suspect. I had the feeling that she wanted to say,”Listen, I’m sorry–I was so, so, wrong about you.”

  • Bonnie Caledonia

    No problem. Liked your answer back.

  • suzjazz

    I’m glad that the season premiere of Mad Men airs tonight, otherwise I would be livid and fuming about CBS ditching TM yet another time, this time for a stupid awards show!

  • Ifrah

    Well at least that’s something to keep you occupied, as every awards show takes up the TM slot every so often.

  • thebeatboy

    hi :DDD !! thanks for replying to my comment.. I’m a little late. I think it will be huge indeed. .

    I know that Lisbon gets upset when Jane keeps things from her and it is disappointing since they are supposed to be a team. However, it seems that Red John knows how close Lisbon and Jane are. Jane probably keeps Lisbon in the dark in order to keep her safe.

  • P

    I don’t understand how keeping Lisbon in the dark could possibly keep her safe. It seems to me it just puts her in more danger. She is heading the investigation, clearly close with Jane, and already on RJ’s radar. If Jane has information and doesn’t tell her, she could easily walk into a dangerous situation blind and be hurt or killed. If he suspects someone and doesn’t tell her, she could be lured away and kidnapped by that person because she doesn’t suspect them. If he has a clue (such as the Tyger Tyger thing from Todd Johnson) and doesn’t tell her, she may not realize when something relevant to that happens (Like when Bertram and Laroche recognized and quoted Blake…Lisbon thought nothing of it because Jane never told her about the Todd Johnson clue). I’m sorry, I don’t believe Jane keeps her in the dark to protect her. I think he does it so that he can find Red John before she does and so she can’t prevent Jane from killing him. I don’t see anything altruistic in his motives. I see them as 100% selfish, and they put her and the team at risk.

  • estatica

    To be perfectly honest, I never paid much attention to the meaning of flowers on the show, since like P said, most of them symbolize basically the same things.

    However, the fact that Jane told us (audience) that gardenias were his favourite flower does make a difference, in my opinion. Why would the writers go out of their way to tell the audience he was holding a gardenia? Why would they make the character say that they were his favourite flower to no one in particular but us?

    Wikipedia, on the meaning of gardenias, says: “You’re lovely, secret love, joy, sweet love, good luck”. And coincidence or not, Jane does tell Lisbon she was sweet in 4×23, and blurts out: “Good luck Teresa, love you” and denies it later in 4×24. And he does show joy when he hears her sing.

    I normally try not to over analyse random things, but when too many random things start to pile up to reinforce a single idea, they can no longer be considered random, in my opinion.

  • Rose UK

    I always dismissed it as an irrelevant aspect, but this blog has taught me to distrust everything! Same with Jane’s parents; we know absolutely nothing at all about his mother. And where’s his dad gone? He must have been aware of tragic events in “Paddy’s” life, saw him on TV, etc.

    Your mention of spoilers is intriguing! The episode Throwing Fire happened to be on TV here yesterday – and it made me wonder about how stories often finish where they started. That little sick girl and her grandmother… I dunno, just musings.

    I’d dearly love to know what goes on in the writers’ rooms! Does Bruno tell them what themes/symbolism to weave into their episodes at the start of each “school year”, and then just send ’em off?!?

  • Lou Ann

    I admit the Dozen Red Roses connection is thin. Just threw it out there as continuity. But the yellow roses at or near the crime scenes in His Right Red Hand are significant considering they were place there purposely. However, they’ve never appeared again, so maybe I’m taking them too far.

  • suzjazz

    I am reluctantly starting to agree with you, P. Lisbon should certainly be informed of any of Jane’s suspicions for the reasons you give. He says he wants her to have deniability (but he’s already got her involved with him as an accomplice to Lorelei’s murder by withholding info) and I think he used to genuinely want her to be able to deny knowledge of Jane’s questionable activities. However, as he becomes ever more obsessed with capturing RJ himself and without her help, he is unwittingly endangering her. As the “normal” Jane is never unwitting about what he does, this shows the extent to which he has allowed his RJ obsession to turn him into a totally selfish, cold person.

  • suzjazz

    Fortunately, Mad Men repeats its episode from 11-12, because it’s on at the same time as TM (10 pm Sunday) Tho AMC, unlike CBS, doesn’t pre-empt MM for worthless shows. I could always watch TM on my computer the following day, but I prefer it on a large screen. Thing is, if TM starts later than 10, it will screw up my viewing of MM. I hate CBS.

  • Ifrah

    I don’t entirely agree. Jane is protecting Lisbon, because he knows that the more she knows about Red John, the more her life will be at peril. He keeps certain information from her to protect her, because he doesn’t want her too involved in the case, but yes, he does become rather cold while doing so. Jane has yet to progress on the lengths of how involved he will be to keep Red John away from Lisbon, but I have a feeling that we’ll find that out quite soon.

  • P

    Any of the interpretations people have put forth could be valid. My take on it was that it was that it had no hidden meaning. I simply took it as a dismissive, condescending gesture. A bit of posturing, a display of dominance. I have seen people, male and female, do similar things in real life. It is like when you see two people who clearly dislike each other run into each other at a social gathering. There are often lots of fake smiles, backhanded compliments, and obviously insincere well wishes. It is hostility hidden behind social niceties. Just a game…these two men don’t like each other but aren’t yet willing to openly declare it.

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks! You may be right about the first scene, but up to that point Lisbon had not said anything too provocative to cause him to sigh. Yet, I do agree with you that it might be a reaction to the way Lisbon conducted the interview. Not considering the nervousness, she actually assumed the role that Jane often plays, wandering about, being nosy and insulting people!

    I, too, felt that genuine concern and controlled expressions you mentioned! Actually Kirkland was too cooperative and it was him who put forward the version of events that Jane wanted to be believed and never questioned Jane throughout the episode; although I suspect that he knew the truth all the time and was putting on an act in believing that Jane was abducted, but to what end? And you’re absolutely right; Kevin Corrigan’s performance is one of a kind!

    So, there remains one question for me here and it’s about the dress Lorelei’s mother was wearing in one of the photos. Could that be a carnival/circus/magician’s assistant costume?

  • P

    But she already is too involved in the case…she leads the investigation and she lied to cover for Jane breaking Lorelei out of prison (and I’m sure RJ knows that as well). I’m not really sure how she could be more involved. It seems to me if Jane wanted to “protect” her, he never would have involved her in that Vegas plan. She faked her death to try to fool RJ (which I suspect angered him much more then her just knowing the same info Jane does would do.) Lisbon actively took part in trying to trying to turn RJ into a mark. Trying to make a fool of a serial killer is not something that would generally increase life expectancy.

    How can not knowing things now make her safer? If Lisbon was somebody not connected with the case, that might make sense. If she was some old carnie friend, not telling her about RJ would protect her because it would keep her from getting involved at all and keep her off RJ’s radar. But she is already in this thing up to her neck. Lying and deception just endanger her. Maybe I am just missing something obvious, so if you could explain to me what I am missing, maybe give me an example of a scenario illustrating this, I would appreciate it. I realize this is a popular belief, and I just really cannot comprehend what you guys are seeing that I don’t.

  • Ifrah

    Well if you recall the moment between Lisbon & Jane in church, he had a very long plan, but there was so much that he kept from Lisbon, because he didn’t want her to go ahead & put herself in danger. He put his life on the line, & faked her death later on, because he knew he could never lose her to Red John. Lisbon means a lot to Jane, & he doesn’t want to lose her like he lost Angela & Charlotte.

  • P

    My take on that is he didn’t tell her about the Vegas plan because he didn’t want Red John to find out. It was that simple. I don’t see how she was protected by not knowing. He put his life on the line and faked her death because he thought that would get him a meeting with Red John and allow him to finally kill the guy. Nothing about that plan was to protect Lisbon…it was all to get to RJ. And if anything, faking her death put an even bigger target on Lisbon’s back. Jane knew that, but didn’t care. The chance to get RJ was more important than protecting Lisbon if something went wrong.

  • Rose UK

    I know what you mean; it’s such a gossamer detail that there isn’t much to substantiate an opinion. Still, it’s fun to speculate! 😉

  • P

    It is fun! And all we can do for now is speculate. At least until we’re proven wrong, we all get to be right: 🙂

  • estatica

    There are several legitimate reasons for Jane to hide stuff from Lisbon.

    1- Deniability: the less she knows, the less responsibility she has;

    2- Lisbon has trouble hiding things, she is too honest. Remember in 4×24, as soon as Wainwright talks to her, he gets a feeling something is off and about to happen. He wasn’t particularly astute when it came to reading people, and still she wasn’t able to conceal things completely. We see the same in Bertram’s office in 5×16. Both Bertram and Kirkland can clrealy see she is hiding things.

    3- We’ve learned in the past that Jane is embarrassed /ashamed to admit his weaknesses to Lisbon. He always likes to project the image of a guy who is never wrong and never fails, someone who never gets played or tricked by others, someone who is always at the top of his game. Telling her the complete truth would mean to be open about everything he’s done wrong so far and he wants her to think the best of him. It’s stupid, really, because she will think the worst if he keeps hiding, but that’s Jane.

    4- He stupidly believes that he is protecting her from himself. If he doesn’t open up and gets close, he thinks she will be at a safe distance and won’t get hurt.

    5- Jane thinks Lisbon no longer has his back as she used to. The fact that she told him to back off a little, to let Kirkland do his job and they they needed to keep their heads down after the Lorelei incident makes him irritable and need to distant himself from her.

    6- He knows she will try to stop him from killing Red John, so he selfishly hopes she won’t get in his way when the time comes, so he rather keep her in the dark.

    Jane has proven time and time again he isn’t cold hearted. He is determined, stubborn, pig headed and used to keep things to himself. Keeping things from Lisbon will most likely get them both (perhaps the team too) in trouble in the end, but hopefully he will finally learn his lesson.

  • III Frogs

    If Red John hadn’t figured it out before the fourth season finale, he certainly knew from that point that Lisbon is working as hard to catch him as Jane is. And that they nearly succeeded, really all the way to the last minute. That’s how powerful they are when working together.

    Secrecy used to protect Lisbon, but not anymore. Either one of them holding back information from the other divides their power and weakens their efforts, increasing the danger for both of them. Jane can’t protect Lisbon from Red John anymore. I agree with P, withholding information from Lisbon puts her in greater danger, not less. It forces her to act blind. Jane must reign in his own impulses, his stubbornness and rebellion towards Lisbon’s hand and trust his partner as an equal. Lisbon cannot do that for him by external control. It must be internal. I think we’re already seeing some attempts on his part to do that, but they are not enough so far.

    It is necessary, even inevitable that the two become real partners, completely sharing and coordinating information and efforts. It’s the best way to increase the odds that either of them, and hopefully both, survive. The danger only grows now for both of them anyway, as they get closer to RJ. Lisbon is an officer of the law. She’s as dedicated to catching RJ as Jane is.

    Lisbon wants to prevent Jane from murdering in cold blood. Jane wants either to protect her or make sure he has RJ for himself. Both people are flawed. RJ probably cannot be caught using regular police methods. And he would be as dangerous alive in prison as out and free. He has to be killed, but it must be molded to the law. Jane and Lisbon are trying to protect each other from a dire outcome. But they are delusional.

  • III Frogs

    I get the logic of your list, estatica, and agree with the items that are there. So my comment is more about their true legitimacy as reasons for Jane not to withhold from Lisbon.

    Deniability for Lisbon makes sense as a reason for Jane not to tell her everything. I question its legitimacy because makes her work blind. More danger I think than if she knew what he knows. Her inability to lie and hide things is a big, and very legitimate, problem. Perhaps as Jane comes to see the need to include Lisbon in his info and plans, and trying to meet her desperate plea for it, this explains why he is trying to up her poker game. Jane’s ego and need to appear in control explain a lot of his personality for sure, but I have a hard time thinking of it being a legitimate reason to withhold from Lisbon. Same for withholding so he can kill RJ without her stopping him. Danger on two fronts: keeping Lisbon blind, and acting on the mistaken notion that he is actually in full control, which he is not. Keeping Lisbon at a distance from himself used to be a legitimate way to protect her from Red John’s notice, but it’s too late now. He’s noticed.

    Jane’s sense of betrayal that Lisbon does not have his back, that seems like a huge, real, legitimate problem to me. It eats at the foundation of every aspect of their relationship, certainly as partners. Trust. Maybe the hardest issue to resolve in such a danger-charged atmosphere. He’s proven he has Lisbon’s back, even killing a prime RJ informant to save her life. I agree with you that Jane is not cold-hearted, far from it, and that real trouble is coming to them both and to the team.

  • III Frogs

    Sorry, ecstatic, I meant legitimate reasons to withhold. Didn’t mean “not to withhold.” Sorry.

  • Carla Oliveira

    That’s it. You said it all, estatica! I do agree 100%. I wouldn’t speak better. Thank you.

  • C Hill

    this almost didn’t make it. whether that’s good or bad is open for interpretation 🙂

    ===============

    How long it’s been part of the plot development is something only Heller and Co can tell us, but certainly backstory regarding Jane’s and Lisbon’s family (including more of Jane’s carnie family) are rich plot veins to mine.

    There have been many references to this, both directly and obliquely, over the past nearly 5 years.

  • thebeatboy

    Hi Estatica 😀 , yes there is the Deniability factor. the less Lisbon knows the less responsible she is for Jane’ s actions. I suppose Jane doesnt want to get her into trouble with her superiors.

    It is indeed also dangerous because what if RJ decides to attack.

    I wanted to mention though that I was surprised that Lisbon asked Jane to let Kirkland handle Lennon and Red John. She had decided to handle Volker.

    I wonder why is it that Lisbon doesnt think or isnt convinced that RJ has a friend in the FBI when she already got shot by O laughlin who was an FBI agent??

  • Carla Oliveira

    I’m already homesick of the comments. Come on Red Letter Day!

  • anomalycommenter

    I’ve just noticed some little interesting thing! In episode 5×16, ‘There Will Be Blood’, when Lorelei shoots Lennon in his kitchen and he falls, we have a shot of a similar (bigger) fish fossil replica that Jane bought as a gift for Van Pelt from the university museum in 5×14, ‘Red in Tooth and Claw’ standing on his kitchen counter-top! It could be nothing, yet another object related to fishing in Lennon’s house, a red herring, or a real clue to Lennon’s connection to that museum. What do you think about it? Does it give us any further information about Manuel Montero and Jason Lennon’s connection to Red John? I mean, way back in 3×16, ‘Red Queen’, when it was revealed that there was a connection between Manuel Montero, Todd Johnson and football, I could see a worried look on Van Pelt’s face!

  • Lou Ann

    I noticed the fish fossil, too, but didn’t make the connection. Good eye.

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks! That was quick! 🙂

  • estatica

    That is really interesting! I didn’t see the bigger fish fossil replica in 5×16 until you pointed out.

    There are a few things that intrigue me about Van Pelt:

    1- Her name. The world ‘Pelt’ usually means ‘fur’, or someone who trades fur or animal hides/skin for a living. Symbolically it could represent someone who changes identities.

    2- Her father was a football coach. O’Laughlin mentioned him when he first met grace. Manuel Montero and Todd Johnson also played football in college. Is it possible that Grace’s dad was somehow in contact with them?

    3- Jane mentioned in 1×16 that Grace is deeply repressed and emotionally shut down because of a trauma in her past that she never spoken of, not even to herself. From her reaction, all of it seems true.

    4- In order to convince a woman not to commit suicide, in 2×10, she told her that her sister had killed herself and that she had never talked about anything. Later in that episode Grave told Rigsby she never had a sister.

    I think at this point, specially knowing she shot and killed her fiancée, it’s safe to assume Grace is one of the good guys and isn’t associated with Red John. But that doesn’t mean that her father or someone in her family isn’t connected to him.

    I don’t know if they did this intentionally or not, but the connection she established with Stiles in season 4, along with her propensity to defend Visualize in season 5, could end up revealing the trauma in her past. Something that she will need to resolve and that could well be linked to Red John.

  • Rose UK

    Oooooh, very interesting! Great weaving together of points, Anomaly & Estatica. Doesn’t Bertram also have some sort of fishing figure on/behind his desk? Or a painting of a boat in his office? (Reminded me of Cap’n Ahab). And while we’re at it, we’ve seen that Minelli likes fishing. Not linked to fossils/the Museum, though, which is a far more tangible connection. Anyway, if that’s all true – oh dear, Van Pelt… She’s already had two nutters for boyfriends, poor girl. (And indirectly because of Jane!!) 2×10 happened to be on TV here the other day. I thought then how weird it was that she invented a suicide, only to deny it (really quite chirpily, I thought) later on. I thought that maybe if it were true, it would explain why she was so convinced that her cousin Yolanda could communicate with the dead.

    Anyhow, I think your theory is very plausible. She was certainly one of the early candidates for RJ, merely because of the red hair. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Thumbs up to the continuity from your last comments! Here you also laid out the family connections of Van Pelt in one nice piece. I, too, cannot see Van Pelt as a bad person. I don’t know how much of this was covered before in this blog, but she obviously has a strong sense of moral duty, although that might be a double edged sword as one can see from the actions of the followers of Visualize cult or some of Red John’s disciples, they have a somewhat twisted sense of morality compared to the norm (although in different degrees)! And one further point is, now that there is a possibility for Van Pelt and Rigsby to reengage, it’s good to remember that it actually was not O’Laughlin who separated them, it was Grace herself who broke it off before knowing him! It might have been the case that she needed this job for a higher cause than just to have a successful career and make money, yet having a relationship with a coworker was against the rules! In 2×18, ‘Aingavite Baa’, when she broke it off, she told him “I love you. I do. But I think I love the job more!” And when Rigsby says that it’s no problem and he will leave, she continues: ” You’d be leaving the unit for us. I don’t want that responsibility. You’ll hate me for it. Maybe not today, but someday you will. I’m sorry!” Now, why does she love her job this much? And why is she sure that someday Rigsby would hate her for it? Is she implying that she’s not that good a person? What could happen in the future that she seems so certain about?

    Contradicting what I suggested above and strengthening your position , Van Pelt says something interesting to Rigsby in an episode with a very interesting name, 3×21,’Like a Redheaded Stepchild’, when Rigsby wants to do a heroic action and go without backup: “You don’t need to prove anything to anyone. Your father is the last person in the word you should be trying to impress! You’re a good person in spite of him! You don’t owe him anything.” One wonders how much of that also applies to her as may do the name of the episode!

    This much ambiguity really kills me (in a good sense)! I totally agree with one of the comments mentioned in the latest video of Americ Ngwije (Thanks to you estatica!): “I hate that I love how painful this show is getting to watch!”
    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALFLfb4gF1E)

  • Rose UK

    Just had another thought: isn’t Grace from Iowa? I’m *sure* that Iowa has been mentioned more than once, also in relation to Jane, but I can’t for the life of me pinpoint it. Something to do with the carnival circuit? Gonna Google…

    Ok, am back! It was – again – in Throwing Fire (2×10), which I keep referencing on these comments!! That’d be it.

    Coincidence? 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    “Now, why does she love her job this much? And why is she sure that someday Rigsby would hate her for it? Is she implying that she’s not that good a person? What could happen in the future that she seems so certain about?”

    I think that she was implying that Rigsby would resent her for making him leaving the team if he chose to do so for her. Maybe not consciously, but, after leaving a very successful team he loved to work with and seeing her keep her job within the unit, he could make her reproaches one day. We saw when Haffner took over Lisbon’s job that his position was not as well established as Cho’s for instance; that means that the job he would get in another unit or agency could be less interesting or useful career wise: even though they must have now a pretty unruly reputation with Jane’s shenanigans, at the time they broke up that was not the case and Jane was the CBI golden boy. What would they have done is, after a few years together and Rigsby realizing he ended up in a dead end, he began reproaching her his demise?
    And yes, Grace loves her career, she wants to prove herself. That’s why she tried to reach to Lisbon in the very beginning of the show; she admires her because she made others respect her.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    About the fossils, you have a great eye for details, Anomaly! 🙂
    For me, it makes sense that Jason had a fossil of a fish in his kitchen as he enjoyed fishing; it links him to Lorelei who was a siren, both temptress and related to the sea (in ‘Red Sail in The Sunset’)… But I don’t see very well how that would link him to Van Pelt as it was an object she didn’t even chose. At best, it would have served to remind us of the fish/sea theme connected to Lorelei in the episode ‘Red in Teeth and Claws’… unless of course we get another fossil in a meaningful episode, like we did with the blinking red light in the past season. (That would be very interesting…)

    Of course, Estatica is right and there are many unanswered questions about Grace… but, truth be told, we could say the same for every character on the show: take Lisbon for example: 1) if we wanted to analyse for the sake of it, we could say that her name is based on the capital of Portugal, whose flag is green and red (ie Patrick Jane/ St Patrick is the patron of Ireland, whose color is green, vs Red John: thus in those two colors displayed in the flag, we can already see the opposition between the two characters). 2) We don’t know much about her past, only that she had a difficult childhood and still maintains a strained relation with her brothers, that she was engaged and had an office romance with Bosco. For all we know, the traumatic childhood she endured with her brothers and their obvious inability to maintain deep personal bonds with other people might have made them good candidates for becoming RJ followers too… Even more since we know that her brother has a knack for lying and deceiving people.
    It’s even worse for Rigsby: he had a brutal father, has a violent streak and is overall pretty naïve. Cho had a criminal background before joining the army and he believes in witches… Both could have fit into RJ’s cult too (violence/willingness to believe in someting) or have met someone during their life involved with him. I mean, if you are searching for indications that there is something fishy, the characters’ background is so mysterious and traumatic that we could see anything in it: there are plenty of unanswered questions about them and we know close to nothing about their families (probably to give the writers some more opportunities for dramatic plots).
    Now, about Van Pelt, I think the hints about something very dark in her past served to give her more depth, since she was only the pretty rookie back then… That’s pretty much why bad guys keep reaching out for her: they feel that she is naïve enough to believe them and, at the same time, there is an hidden dark side in her that makes her attracted to “dangerous” men, like the “ghost” of Craig put it.

  • anomalycommenter

    Does he? Wow, very fishy! 🙂 I have not noticed that. I have to check that out! That’s very interesting, seems the truth is gradually coming to light (Most certainly to go back in the dark in the season finale!) Oh, yes our dear Minnelli too does go fishing. Also your point about the Cousin Yolanda and the supposed dead sister of Grace is just brilliant! Brilliant!

    And thank you very much! Also pardon me for my late replies although I’m online, ‘cause it takes a lot of time correcting my mistakes and shaping my sentences into a not too confusing format, yet they often end up riddled with all sorts of mistakes! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    It does seem that the choice of the gardenia was not random. You make an undeniable case withe the quotes, which are more specific to the meaning than general. Someone said that no incident or dialog on TM is without meaning, which is what intrigues us all about the series. It’s like putting together pieces of a puzzle within a puzzle. Excellent observation.

  • suzjazz

    Great analysis, anomaly!

    “You’ll hate me for it. Maybe not today, but someday you will.”

    A side comment: These words of Grace’s are a paraphrase of Humphrey Bogart’s words to Ingrid Bergman at the end of Casablanca (I hope this isn’t a spoiler for anyone who may not have seen the classic film) I found this interesting an it probably points to something but I am not sure what.
    Not much analysis has been done yet on Grace, and yours is excellent. She is hiding or repressing a terrible secret of some kind and it may or may not have to do with RJ. (Lisbon’s childhood in which her mom is killed, dad becomes a violent drunk and commits suicide, leaving her to take care of her brothers, etc. is also a terrible secret which she does not share with anyone except in some oblique references.) Grace and Lisbon are very much alike, very private and buttoned down, very serious about their jobs, as they must be in the macho world of police work. We know that Lisbon is a role model to Grace and that she admires her and wants to be like her. They also have affection for each other beyond simply the regard of coworkers; Grace asks Lisbon to be bridesmaid at her wedding, they have hugged each other in moments of crisis and expressed concern for each other. Grace asks if she can speak to her boss “as a friend” on one occasion. At the same time, Grace does love Rigsby and it gave her a lot of heartache having to choose between him and her job–this is a choice that no one should have to make. Then her attempt to move on with O’Laughlin ends in disaster and she refuses counseling in order to appear tough. (Lisbon also resists therapy and takes a phone call mid-session) Then she has to endure seeing Rigsby have a child with another woman. Grace is in terrible pain but like Lisbon she does not reveal it, and like Lisbon she is never seen crying, except in the scene in which she and Lisbon are in the elevator together and we see the doors close with Lisbon wearing a mute face of misery at her inability to comfort Grace.

  • suzjazz

    Although Grace says she made up the story about her sister, she may be lying to cover up the truth. Or, maybe we are intended to take that statement at face value: she was trying to prevent a desperate woman from committing suicide and she used some quick thinking.

    All the evidence we have about Grace indicates she is a good person–I think it’s a stretch for her to be RJ, we don’t have any real smoking gun or suspicious leads. We do know, however, that she can be naive and actually defends Visualize members to Jane (I think) saying that maybe they have a point, or something to that effect. I think there is a Visualize connection somewhere and it may be with her dad, not sure, but that is an indirect connection to RJ and if so Grace may not have connected the dots. She is very intelligent and a good detective so it’s hard to believe she would not be more suspicious of Visualize. She can’t be a former member because they would have killed her by now (unless she is an intentional plant in the CBI) And about the red hair: there is at least one woman in every episode with red hair–often it is an actress who is only in that one episode, or a minor character. I have heard that this is intentional on Heller’s part. Having said this, the Rosalind Harker story is quite disturbing because she actually had a relationship with RJ–the only woman that we know to have done so–and significantly, she is blind. The fact that Grace is a redhead may be significant in the RJ arc but I have no idea how. I am sure one of you with better powers of observation will come up with the answer! 🙂

  • Rose UK

    Hehe! Don’t worry – your points are clear and interesting. 🙂

    You know, I think I might be seeing things. In There Will Be Blood there is a small statue behind Bertram in the scene with Lisbon; I thought it was a fisherman but I’ve just YouTubed it and now see that it could be… anything. However, his mug *does* have fishes on it. 😉

    As to the painting, that’s going to annoy me! I am pretty sure that in one episode there was a huge painting of the sea behind him; of course, the videos I’m currently checking show a variety of items, all changing about.

    Anyway, I realise that this is very irrelevant in the grand scheme of things so I will stop now… Just had to get it off my chest.

  • Rose UK

    Oh – any red-heads are intentional?! I’ve noticed a few, but I didn’t realise it was every episode. That’s a fun detail. I’ll have to keep my eye out for it. 🙂

  • suzjazz

    Just as every show title refers to something red.

    I’m intrigued by the fish/fishing meme and I do not think all the fish references are coincidental.

    This is the greatest commentary thread! It just goes on and on and on!

  • suzjazz

    I also don’t understand why Lisbon has distanced herself from her brothers–she clearly loves Tommy and her niece Annie. But Lisbon herself is a puzzle and the writers have kept it that way intentionally. I so wish that there would be an episode from Lisbon’s POV. Her character would be much more believable if we knew what she was really thinking (and not just about Jane) The writers probably think it’s irrelevant but that’s a huge mistake on their part. Lisbon is as important a character as Jane and RJ (though we don’t get to see his POV! but then he is the elusive villain) We need to know more about Lisbon.

  • Rose UK

    Until ReviewBrain or Violet posts the next review (we hope!), and then we’ll all move on to that! 😉

    Re: the fishing, well, I suppose you could link it to various metaphors within the show: “reeling someone in”, “bait”, etc. (And us fans… who are “hooked”) …And I’m out.

  • anomalycommenter

    That would be something if correct! Yes, in 1×16, ‘Bloodshot’, we see that she is from Iowa and has a car with Iowa plate. But I downloaded a subtitle file for 2×10, ‘Throwing Fire’, and searched through it and there was no mention of Iowa in it. Are you sure you heard Jane’s connection with Iowa there and not somewhere else? (Well, we can download all the subtitles and search in them, but it takes a little time.) 😉

  • Rose UK

    Sorry – should have been more specific in my post! It was a flashback title that read: “Iowa, 1986” or something like that. In Bloodshot, Jane also quips that gullible women are from Iowa… (Which I came across in my search above!)

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, yes it’s there! Very acute observation! And pardon me for wrongly assuming that everything should be verbal and included in subtitles! Also that “gullible women” quote you mentioned is very interesting, because of the “That little sick girl and her grandmother” you talked about above! And by the way, what kind of spoilers estatica was talking about there?

  • anomalycommenter

    You are right with a very high probability, great analysis as always! But I think that this matter was intended to be ambiguous so that we could not definitely decide to interpret it which way. And although I, too, believe that Van Pelt is essentially a good person, there are some hints in the show suggesting that she is somehow, maybe not knowingly, connected to Red John (definitely more hints compared to Cho or Rigsby). Also very nice take on why Van Pelt tried to reach to Lisbon, thanks!

  • reviewbrain

    It was in the Season one episode Bloodshot by Gary Glasberg. Grace had fallen for a man who pretended to be a law enforcer interested in her to get to Jane, which is why Jane called her gullible. Love that episode.

    With regards to Lisbon family; I think we don’t see more of them simply cause it’s not pertinent to the story, same ad every other character (for now at least)…

  • Rose UK

    For some odd reason, there is no ‘reply’ button to your post above…

    Probably best not go into spoilers! 😉

    Clever that you drew a link between Jane’s remark and the gullibility of the grandmother & girl – I hadn’t actually considered that… Gosh, there are connections – whether coincidental or not – to be found all over the place!

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you very much suzjazz! And sorry for the late reply! I must confess that I’ve committed the terrible sin of not seeing such a classic movie! But what you said worked as a teaser for me and now I must see it, very interesting point there!

    And I love how you compared Lisbon and Van Pelt, I was blind to most of what you said till now! What you mentioned about Grace being in pain, that’s the point. Was it really that necessary to endure this much pain? Was there really no better way out of it? Well, Violet has a very well reasoned answer to that above, but I still think that there is more to this matter than meets the eye!

    And now that you are so enthusiastic about Lisbon’s character, may I ask you to let me know of your opinion about the discussion some of us had at the end of the comments for the ‘Red Barn’ review. I think it may answer your question earlier about why they don’t show things from her point of view, in the same terms you addressed the same question about Red John. My thoughts there would definitely seem to be very odd and remote, yet I would love to hear someone’s opinion about them who probably is as much enthusiastic about Lisbon as I am. Thanks in advance! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    That’s probably because of not letting columns get too narrow. They already do get too narrow in some small handheld devices (as narrow as a single character!) You can instead respond to the last comment with a reply button in that thread in such situations. And thanks again!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Very well thought out, estatica. I’ll keep an eye on her.

  • suzjazz

    I am going back to the “Red Barn” review to re-examine the discussion. It’s near the end? I hope I can find it because there are SO many comments on these reviews! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    I went back to the Red Barn comments, which are just as interesting as the ones here. I have only really been drawn into the analysis of this episode (Behind the Red Curtian), having discovered Reviewbrain’s blog only recently. There is so much food for thought on so many levels. I still find Lisbon to be a mystery and a puzzle. She seems to be a loner despite her affection for her brothers and her team. She feels safest when she is cut off from others, and she thinks she doesn’t need anyone messing up her responsible, law-abiding, law-enforcing, clean, predictable, paperwork-laden life. She doesn’t realize that she is afraid to get close to anyone. When Jane throws a wrench into her machinery, she becomes angry and fearful of losing control. Yet she always allows him to persuade her to go along with his schemes, because he has a great track record in closing cases. He has more control over her emotions and actions than she will admit. And she is also lonely, which she certainly won’t admit to herself. Vulnerable to Jane’s charm and manipulations, she falls in love with him in spite of herself. Even if he were not a loose cannon, her obedience to the rules would forbid any relationship with a co-worker. And yet…part of her longs to cut loose, to do something wild, unplanned, and against the rules! This is one reason why she loves Jane: he occasionally gets her to live a little, and up until this season, he could get her to lighten up and be happy temporarily. His obsession with RJ is deepening and it is causing him to push her away. She doesn’t know how to deal with this, so she clings to the safety of the law and angrily tells him that she won’t have anything to do with his questionable tactics. Lisbon is someone who believes
    erroneously that she can keep her thoughts and her feelings
    totally separate, that she can compartmentalize.

  • suzjazz

    Even though we know all this about Lisbon, I still think we should have an episode from her POV. It honors her importance as a character. She has great qualities: she is courageous, even heroic (observe her behavior with a bomb strapped to her body, and when she believes she is about to die from a bioweapon germ, also when she rescues Jane from drowning) loyal (to Jane, Bosco, and her team) compassionate and forgiving. She has been given the nickname “Saint Teresa” for her police accomplishments, although she is anything but a saint. Her love for Jane is not selfless enough that she does not get jealous. She has forgiven him for wounding her deeply. I find Lisbon to be one of the most admirable TV heroines ever, up there with Emma Peel of the Avengers. We fans want her unhappiness to disappear. We are all hoping she will be happy in the end. She deserves to be. But that may not be what the writers have planned. Something monumental has to happen to her and/or Jane that will transform both of them. I am not sure I answered your question, anomaly–others have a slightly different take on her, and maybe most fans do not love her as much as I do.

  • III Frogs

    Your analysis of Lisbon is spot on and brings together so many threads of her character into a terrific picture. Having an episode from her point of view would be fantastic. I haven’t known TM to do that with other characters, but I could easily be forgetting. I went back and read the Red Barn Lisbon comments, too. She gets overlooked easily because Patrick Jane is such a force. I really appreciate your discussion about this. Lisbon is a phenomenal character.

  • anomalycommenter

    Very nice and comprehensive take on Lisbon’s character! I love your thoughts, thank you suzjazz! Yes, she has always stated Jane’s extraordinary ability of closing cases as her reason for tolerating him, but we all know that it’s more than that, and I suspect maybe not just because of her feelings for him! Well, that’s only my gut feeling and sort of my wish. And that I think it would add much more to the artistic value of the series, story wise, if it turned out that Lisbon had been keeping a huge secret to herself all these years, just like your take on Van Pelt, related or unrelated to Red John, and hence the loneliness I presume. Yet what I long for would be a huge disappointment for most of the fans and casual viewers that I find it very unlikely turning out to be the case eventually! As someone somewhere stated, it’s a TV show, not a movie and so I have to adjust my expectations accordingly!

    Your second comment is also very enlightening. I don’t see her feelings for Jane to lessen the value of her virtues that much, as many times she has shown compassion towards total strangers. And being jealous in love without actually hurting anybody does not count as a bad point in my humble opinion, and maybe even shows the strength of love, like we saw in Rigsby’s case. Also I hope you’d get to your Lisbon POV episode soon! May I somehow misquote you and say that Lisbon is the most admirable TV heroine for me? 🙂

    @III Frogs: Thanks for reading them! I totally agree with what you said, although this season places more focus on Lisbon, yet IMHO, it does not do her rich character justice. 🙂

    Also sorry for my late reply, I think roundness of the earth has its own problems! 😉

  • Rose UK

    Sometimes I miss early-seasons Lisbon for her tomboy attitude (tweaking Jane’s nose, kicking his couch, thwacking him with crutches) and propensity to scold people (“You be quiet!” – Tunney’s delivery cracks me up) but I do appreciate her character development. Yes, I’d like a bit of “Little Miss Fierce” back, but I agree with all of you – she’s a great heroine whatever. Characters in literature often seem to have one “fatal flaw” that they must face/work through, but hers has already been stated by La Roche – she protects her team/family at all costs, and she’s a fixer. There are certainly worse fatal flaws to have, imo!

  • C Hill

    actually, if we get literal, van pelt is dutch for “of peels”. like an onion? hmmm indeed.

    i’ve mentioned before some of the names of characters in the series seeming to hint at the overall nature of the character — “la roche” is “the rock”, di bueno is “the good” .

    very nice work here on van pelt and lisbon, though. this is the discussion that will not go away!

    and fishing, yes, something is there, along with lisbon being a great port city.

  • Rose UK

    Well, at the risk of bothering everyone further by continuing the discussion even more (!), re: fishing, I think Violet has already touched on the theme of Moby Dick (in her Cultural References thread, and perhaps elsewhere) – so all that would definitely tie in very nicely. The book itself even plays a role in a season 1 episode.

    I haven’t read it, but I’ve been skimming the Wikipedia article (what else?!) and there are a few nice parallels between some of the characters, themes, etc. Though I hope TM doesn’t end the same way! I think I might take the rest of my thoughts over to the other thread as it seems like an appropriate place for them… (I am fine blathering to myself over there… 😉 )

  • C Hill

    MD is another free book I got on my reader a while ago. Guess I’ll put that next in the queue, Rose!

  • Rose UK

    Awaiting moderation now… 😉

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Actually, I’m not sure about the fish/fishing pattern you’re defining here. I mean, except for this season, the references to fish and sea are too sparse and scattered (and a bit far-stretched I think). They don’t seem connected, or at least I can’t see any truly deep meaningful link between them. For me, there is a visible pattern only in season 5 and it has a specific meaning: it alludes to Lorelei, the siren, who is a temptress and is related to the sea in ‘Red Sail in The Sunset’… (although the original Lorelei was connected to a river, but whatever.) For instance, it makes sense that Jason had a fossil of a fish in his kitchen as he enjoyed fishing and it linked him to Lorelei. Jason had “fished” his victims and she provoked his death like the siren she was; thus the fish in the kitchen where she confronted him enhanced that opposition… Indeed, I’m not sure that the fossil given by Jane to Grace in ‘Red in Teeth and Claws’ should indicate something about Van Pelt either: at best, it could have been a metaphorical reminder of Lorelei and a way to announce the climax of her arc… a bit like we had the recurrent blinking red light all thorough the second part of previous season.
    (Huh, I really hope I’m not sounding too unenthusiastic and patronizing… And of course, feel free to disagree… ;).)

  • suzjazz

    I also miss the tomboy Lisbon and the “angry little princess.” I miss hearing Jane calling her something affectionate (the “pocket rocket” and “poster child for the NRA” are two examples. They are no longer openly enjoying each other’s company. (Well, Lisbon used to roll her eyes at Jane’s antics, but she secretly loved it.) I like that she’s kickass and can defend herself, but I would also like to see some vulnerability, which we last saw in the episode with the scene in the church. It’s true that her fatal flaws are of the good sort. I’m afraid I share in her denial about Jane’s ability to be “fixed.” She’s not one to give up on fixing him, even though he himself has said, “Some things just can’t be fixed.” But just maybe he is salvageable, and if he is, she’s the one to do it. It was Lisbon who persuaded Minelli to hire Jane to consult for the CBI, and in a way she saved him then from the despair he was feeling, and gave him a purpose while allowing him to pursue his revenge (although she wants him to give up the revenge–though by now she knows he won’t unless he has a real change of heart.) I think it would be interesting if Jane ends up deciding that he will only kill RJ if he is threatening Lisbon, himself, or another person. (He would help the team find and capture RJ) Then RJ might capture Lisbon and Jane could rescue her at the moment RJ is about to cut her. I’ve imagined Jane taking shooting lessons so that he becomes a good enough shot to hit RJ from a distance. That way, he would still kill RJ but Lisbon would not have to arrest him for murder because he was saving her life.

  • suzjazz

    I am not, needless to say, a television writer of any sort, although I am a writer (I wrote a textbook on jazz piano playing) I have been reading quite a bit of mentalist fanfiction, and there are a very small number of stories which are quite well written and the writers for TM and Bruno Heller would do well to read them. I have lots of ideas but I can’t transform them into something dramatically interesting and consistent with the characters’ personalities. For example, Jane has an extreme aversion to guns and is somewhat contemptuous of the cops who use them. It’s not likely that he would train himself to be a crack shot. The once (or twice?) that he fired a gun was not a planned action (I think that he gets the gun away from the guy who turns out not to be RJ but is a psycho nonetheless) I’m sure the writers have some excellent plots lined up for us, and I know there will be anguish and maybe even tragedy to come, but I hope that there is a happy ending, although somehow I don’t expect one. TM isn’t a Jane Austen novel ending in a marriage, with order restored. 🙂

  • suzjazz

    Good one on the names! Most of the names on TM are unusual, which leads me to believe that each name has a meaning or significance. Nice work!

  • III Frogs

    @Rose UK, Laroche’s description of Lisbon makes me think maybe she’s the Tyger, tiger!

    @suzjazz I hope there is not a sad end to the show as you describe. Although the TM ending may not be happy all around, Bruno Heller has talked more than once about a concern for what viewer’s want. That sure depends on which viewer you are, and some wants are entirely incompatible. TM has had some very dark moments and arcs. It has taught us to love its lead characters. I was once heavily into a network show that killed off a beloved lead character. Of course the show didn’t even last a half season after that. I don’t know when I’ve resented anything more on television and resent it still when I think about it today. Here’s the kind of viewer I am. Theres almost nothing I love better than a good story. TM is at heart lighthearted and fun, but with lots of depth and so many layers. I don’t want it spoiled by writers wanting to seem cool to their cable buddies or trying to teach the audience some fleeting lesson about the tragedies of life. I hope Heller doesn’t forget TM is not cable and there’s no requirement to kill off our most beloved characters for some hipster edge with that genre. What could be worse than to end it with an entire team of aging single cops with no meaningful personal relationships? And of all the characters who have sacrificed most and deserve a good life, who more than Jane and Lisbon deserve that richness in their life? My shipper is showing here and I don’t care! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    “Little Miss Fierce” . What is that? Sorry my ignorance.

  • Carla Oliveira

    “Little Miss Fierce” . What is that? Sorry my ignorance.

  • C Hill

    carla.

    s02e16. look for the punch 🙂

    a big epi i think. i need to rewatch it.

  • phoenixx

    Ok, so because of a comment on another board or YT, not sure, which suggested Kirkland could be a double-agent, i gave this some thought, and think it could explain some things, if that is true.

    1.) Why he asked Lennon if he recognized him but still killed him, if it was an order from RJ he didn’t have a choice in order to keep up his cover.
    Would also explain why he seemed a little nervous (though his behavior is something everyone interpretates differently). And yes there is the rest of his speech which was creepy but if you’d “work” for RJ for so many years, i guess you couldn’t help it to become a little weird yourself.
    2.) Why he asked Bertram if they could trust Lisbon. Maybe they’re thinking about “letting her in”. Of course that would imply Bertram and maybe some other people (Poker friends?) know about it.
    3.) We know he keeps tabs on Jane right from the start, probably even before, he knew Jane spent time in a psych ward but never got in contact.
    He could have been making sure Jane doesn’t get to close to RJ so Jane doesn’t ruin “their investigation”. If he really managed to fool RJ into thinking he’s another ally he wouldn’t want anyone, especially not a revenge seeking ex-psychic, fiddling with his plan. After all Jane is no cop but a civilian.
    4.) It could also explain why Kirkland only now makes his presence known though he is around since the start. The whole Jane/Lorelei thing might have made both sides a bit nervous, as neither RJ nor “them” know how much Jane really knows and how close he really is.
    5.) Or he might suspect Jane after all, as we know through Lorelei/Lennon RJ’s minions don’t know each other. Darcy suspected Jane and after the finale the story was sort of dropped, never mentioned again.

    About point No.1 I also want to add that Kirkland could be capable of hypnotism as well as Jane. When he infiltrated RJ and met Lennon he might have visited him at some point later and planted a trigger which would make Lennon forget a face to the name, so to speak.
    Which is why it was so important for him to know, Kirkland could’ve been checking if the trigger still worked after the coma.
    And for all we know RJ might do the same, it always puzzled me why RJ never killed or broke Lorelei out of prison. He seemed to have trusted her implicitly which is something i just doubt he does. How did he never fear she would tell anyone his real name or tell them what he looks like. So what if she actually just thought she knew but if she would’ve want to tell she would’ve given false information, because RJ makes sure the one’s closest to him don’t remember when it’s important.
    I just don’t believe in the whole plastic surgery story, seems too farfetched given how long Kirkland looks exactly the way he does now, so hypnosis could be a different explanation.

    Just some thoughts, although there are still some wholes in it.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Ha ha ha! I put “Little Miss Fierce” on Google and appeared a lot of reference about Lisbon also this episode. But I didnt know that expression. Thank you C hill.

  • Carla Oliveira

    “it always puzzled me why RJ never killed or broke Lorelei out of prison. He seemed to have trusted her implicitly which is something i just doubt he does”. Jane had said to Lisbon that he trusted Lorelei. I thought that as weird as Red John keep Lorelei live so long time.

  • Rose UK

    Sorry I didn’t reply, Carla: different time zones! 😉

  • Rose UK

    You’re right that the marine/water references are predominantly season 5 (Red Lacquer Nail Polish springs to mind!) and you certainly make a good case for them being simply a signpost for the Lorelei arc (if they’re even that). I’d also just like to point out one more thing (again, it might be quite far-fetched, but it’s still interesting to ponder) that I came across on the Mentalist Wikia site when I was researching fishing symbols in TM. It is this:

    In episode 5×14 (Red in Tooth and Claw), Bertram in the poker game uses the expression “gutted” (i.e. to gut a fish). The site reminds us that this is the episode in which Jane states that a person’s vocabulary reveals unconscious passions (the Bingo game). So that would suggest that Bertram is also perhaps a fisherman (the site mentions the mug here too).

    Perhaps the fishing symbolism doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things; perhaps its a total red herring (albeit a subtle one); perhaps it’s all sheer lucky coincidence (I confess I am prone to making links where perhaps there are none – must be the literature student in me!!), but I was quite interested in this use of language.

    Which also reminded me that Jane said to Lisbon: “unless you sing to the coppers” (echoing the “make her sing like a bird” he said to or about Lorelei). Is all this repetition/linguistic echoes meant to signify something?? We’ve already touched on the fact that Kirkland’s “you’re a mess” echoes the same thing said by Lisbon. Are those episodes written by the same person? I completely understand that this might be a huge stretch; people say the same sorts of thing all the time – it’s just that the ‘sing’ really stood out for me. I hope RJ doesn’t make Lisbon sing!!! 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    “Jane said to Lisbon: “unless you sing to the coppers” (echoing the “make her sing like a bird” he said to or about Lorelei)”. Which episode jane said that? By the way, what Little Miss Fierce means. It’s a local expression? Sorry, I’m Brasilian.

  • Rose UK

    Nao te preocupes; vou tentar explicar… 😉 E como dizer “senhorita feroz/pequena senhorita feroz” mas e mais disso; quasi e um termo de carinho o a veces se usa para infantilizar a alguem. E bastante comum, na minha opiniao. Tambem ha uma serie de livros infantiles que se chama Mr Men books, e as Little Miss sao a versao feminina (Little Miss Busy, Little Miss Bossy, etc). Neste caso, ‘feroz’ quer dizer que a Lisbon e forte, e dinamica, nao deixa que as pessoas aproveitem dela. Espero que compreendas! Se nao, I’m sure someone else can explain better in English!

    Also: “sing to the coppers” was in There Will Be Blood and “sing like a bird” was either 4×24 or 5×01…

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Really great explanation, Rose! Basically Jane pointed out the same characteristics with his “poker rocket” comment in season 3: she’s tiny, has an explosive personality and is pretty action oriented. Really, the woman should be holding a warning saying “don’t mess with me”… (and the fact that Jane enjoys continuously doing just that only shows further how reckless he is, lol…I still can’t believe she managed to restraint herself enough not to punch him more often after some of the crazy ideas he’s come up with!)

  • estatica

    Hey Carla, I’m Portuguese myself, so here’s what the expression means:

    “Little Miss Fierce” é uma forma carinhosa e, ao mesmo tempo, humorística e condescendente que o Jane usa para descrevê-la. Ao mesmo tempo que a Lisbon é pequena e muito feminina, consegue ser destemida e enfrentar qualquer obstáculo, por maior que seja.

    I’v always liked the fact that Teresa is a Portuguese name and that the character has some Portuguese ancestry. However I don’t think this is relevant at all. Perhaps Bruno decided it to be this way because in one of his first jobs, he worked for a Portuguese director and they got along well. Who knows?

    Fun fact #1: The Portuguese are passionate about the sea and to the unknown.

    Fun Fact #2: “More than Words” is played by Nuno Bettencourt, a (rather hot) Portuguese guy.

  • suzjazz

    I think Rose is referring to Lisbon as a small woman who is not afraid of anything, can take down men twice her size, and is sharp-tongued and intolerant of nonsense.
    In other words, “Little Miss Fierce” is simply a great name Rose came up with to describe Lisbon.

  • Rose UK

    Oh no, I can’t take credit! It was actually in an episode, though I don’t think it was said by Jane. I think it might have been a bouncer at a nightclub!!

  • suzjazz

    I don’t know what to do about these long thin columns without reply buttons that keep appearing! I wanted to respond to IIIFrogs’ commentary about hoping for a happy ending, just to say i agree with you 100%. I guess I am a shipper after all, although I don’t watch the show solely for that reason–I am fascinated by the RJ mystery and I would watch the show even if they killed off a main character, though I really hope they aren’t stupid enough to do that. I would only watch the show after that because I am totally hooked on it. What I don’t understand is why the writers would tease us for all these seasons hinting at a romance between Jane and Lisbon (and unquestionably at mutual love) and then not follow through when they are so obviously made for each other: their character traits complement each other, she is strong where he is weak, he is light where she is uptight, he teases her when she takes herself too seriously. Until this season, when a rift between them is widening, they argued like an old married couple. And it is possible to keep loving someone over time without ever having kissed them, and even while getting involved with another sex/romantic partner. I hope the writers don’t betray J and L.

  • suzjazz

    I love your comments, estatica! I love Portuguese–the lyrics to Brazilian songs are so sensual. I’m amazed how much Portuguese I can understand reading your paragraph. I already speak/read French and Italian, and I am learning Spanish. It’s cool how all the Romance languages are related. I always noted that Lisbon being the capital of Portugal would mean that Teresa Lisbon must have some ancestry. (Fun fact: I was in Lisbon, Portugal for a day when as a teenager my family sailed on an ocean liner; we were headed for Italy and the boat stopped ant Gibralter and Lisbon.) Fun fact #2: I had a gig many years ago in Nantucket playing piano in a bar patronized by Portuguese fishermen!

  • Rose UK

    @ Estatica. I also have a little bit of Portuguese heritage and that’s why Teresa is a name in my family – so I always felt oddly drawn to her because of that! Lol. So egotistical… 😉

    @) Violet. I love what you did with the Portuguese/Irish flags above, even if it’s nothing more than a brilliant example of making something out of nothing!

  • suzjazz

    Aha! A Janeism! I should have known!

  • suzjazz

    oops…not a Janeism…but reflects his view of her.

  • III Frogs

    Ha! Found ya, @suzjazz, thanks for responding to my post! So totally agree with you about the show having much more going for it than the relationship between Jane and Lisbon. Although that is a HUGE part, it does not necessarily have to be romantic. I agree with you that it is natural, and even to be desired, that such compatible people who obviously care for each other, and have sacrificed for each other, would make a great couple. I would love to see it, expect to see it and would be utterly disappointed if it does not happen. And with a number of episodes to run the arc about it to give it the attention it deserves. Not fulfilling what I see as real love would be grievous to me and I would feel cheated. Killing off a main character would be awful. Killing off one of the LEAD characters (Jane or Lisbon) would be an unforgivable betrayal to me and I just couldn’t watch after that. The show I mentioned that did that years ago, those three writers are back together and writing another network show. I’m still so angry and hurt about what they did, I wouldn’t watch or read anything they do anymore, even if they just wrote the copy on cereal boxes!

  • reviewbrain

    I remember reading somewhere (possibly in the original pilot script) that Lisbon has an Irish-American father and a mother who was Portuguese, hence the name Teresa and the Catholic faith.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thank you for answer me. You are very gentle.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Good to know that. Thank you.

  • Carla Oliveira

    “I don’t understand is why the writers would tease us for all these seasons hinting at a romance between Jane and Lisbon (and unquestionably at mutual love) and then not follow through when they are so obviously made for each other: their character traits complement each other, she is strong where he is weak, he is light where she is uptight, he teases her when she takes herself too seriously. Until this season, when a rift between them is widening, they argued like an old married couple. And it is possible to keep loving someone over time without ever having kissed them, and even while getting involved with another sex/romantic partner. I hope the writers don’t betray J and L.” Suzjazz, I do agree with you. The writers put the romance in the air between them, not we. So, they assume that.

  • Rose UK

    🙂 Sorry I didn’t put any accents in!

  • Carla Oliveira

    I feel the same. I would be so sad if the romance wouldn’t materialize, or one of them(Jane or Lisbon or both of them). I would hate to death Bruno Heller. That’ my greatest fear continuing watching TM next season, as what happens in this season finale.

  • Carla Oliveira

    That’s all right. I could understand. Thank you.

  • Carla Oliveira

    He called her “Little Miss Fierce” in which episode?

  • estatica

    Sorry, my mistake. Jane didn’t say it. A club doorman did in 1×16, when Lisbon and Rigsby were looking for a suspect at a nightclub. But I suppose the expression does fit her very well, regardless of who said it.

  • reviewbrain

    The first thought that came to my mind when I first heard the expression was that the phrase “little miss” was alluding to the children’s book series written by English author Roger Hargreaves where each book is about a character whose name is based on her personality: Little Miss Trouble, Little Miss Manners, etc. There’s also a series called Mr. Men (Mr. Rush, Mr. Happy, etc.)

    I have no idea if that allusion was intentional, but it might have been as these books are quite popular and Heller is British…

  • estatica

    @suzjazz I understand what you mean. I never had formal education in any of those languages, but they share a common route, so they’re very similar in a way. Spanish is perhaps the closest to Portuguese

    @Rose UK I can relate to that! My mother’s name is Teresa, and yes, like 90% of the population, we’re Catholic too (no surprise here).

    Personally, the show has hit too close to home a few times because of that character. Would you believe I had this huge crush on an older guy who used to play “More than Words” on his guitar back in Highschool? I’m not ashamed to admit it, I was reduced to a pile of goo by the time that episode ended and realized for the first time my shipper heart would be heartbroken if those two never ended up together 😛

  • estatica

    *root, not route, oops

  • Carla Oliveira

    Yes, it does, certainly. The funnier: I put “Little Miss Fierce” on Google and appeared several references to Lisbon including a video with the punch that she gave on Jane. Hilarious.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I already knew this song since I was 14, but as my language mother is not English I didn’t pay full attention to lyrics. My heart beat faster knowing the complete lyrics. This song combine with them! Very beautiful lyrics! Do you see as the writers are guilty by the shippers?

  • suzjazz

    I wonder what percentage of fans want to see a romantic relationship between J and L. Could we do a poll? 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    Thanks, you are very kind Violet! This is exactly the kind of productive discussion I like. It would not be very helpful if we sit behind a monitor just nodding and blindly admitting theories of other fellow fans. Thank you for being the force for reason here! 🙂

    Yes, you are absolutely right, that gift was not chosen by Van Pelt, but neither were the gifts Jane bought for Cho and Rigsby. So it was not just a single item by itself, and we saw Cho and Rigsby arguing about their gifts extensively. I consider that as an indirect invitation to thinking about the meaning of her gift, too, or at least for keeping it in mind for the possible future reference to it. Jane being a very perceptive person could well have chosen them according to the somewhat hidden aspects of their personalities. But I am not claiming that it certainly has a meaning and quite possibly may be wrong, but how can we be sure?

    It absolutely is correct that the connection of Lorelei to sea is more established as she swam seductively in the sea, hid behind a rock, presumably seduced Jane (up to a certain point), alluding quite correctly to the Siren, and by the way as Suzjazz said her unusual name could not have been chosen by accident.

    About the fish fossil replica we see in Lennon’s house, yes it fits with other items fish and fishing related in his house, and it too can be a coincidence. But let’s consider the possibilities here:

    1- That item was placed intentionally there and means that Lennon had a connection to the museum: We find out more about the kind of connection he had with Red John as Montero worked there, too (I just can’t let go of this man!). So they might have been in direct contact.

    2- That item was placed intentionally there and means to signify Lorelei’s connection to the sea: I don’t think that it can signify that, because Lennon himself had a direct connection to fish and sea, and so everything with such a connection in his house primarily points to him in the first place. In addition to that, this argument does not consider the specific characteristics of this item.

    3- That item was placed intentionally there as a red herring: I can only quote you about ‘The mentalist’ writers being such “mischievous tricksters”!

    4- That item was placed there just as another fish related object, no specific meaning intended: It really is a very similar item to Van Pelt’s gift, which camera zoomed on in a recent episode. I don’t know anything about filmmaking, but it’s no stretch to expect that if you show something with insistence there must be a meaning associated with it, even if as an intentional misdirection. Putting something potentially meaningful just for the sake of filling space is bad filmmaking in my humble opinion.

    I quite get what you mean by showing those very interesting yet as you intended to show probably misleading reasons for suspecting each and every member of the team, because of such things I do not rule out any person as RJ or his minion in this show! But I also don’t believe that every little trifle is of some grand meaning, and assure you that I am no such person in real life, I even see some things most of the people on the planet earth take as granted, as extremely doubtful at best (With total respect for those people who are often much more helpful to their societies than I ever would be). IMHO, it is much better if we do not exempt a single thing from total scrutiny and skeptical eyes. (In other words Darwin is my real hero!)

    But here and in talking about the fantasy world of the show the writers are not bound with the physical limitations of the real word. They can play with our minds as they wish, and so make it possible every improbable thing. It even helps with them in the real world as you mentioned above with coming up with plots despite the uncertain number of seasons the show could be on air. So I consider it as fun, and not real intellectual endeavor, to contemplate about every little improbable possibility. And yes I admit it’s a gross waste of time that could be devoted to much more productive causes. Sorry for the long nonsense printing machine that I am! 🙂

    Also sorry for my late reply, I was forcibly detached from the internet for the last two days, and when I found the time, I could not concentrate and assemble a remotely meaningful response. 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    I read this post in Red Blog: “Heller says the experience (catching Volker) may help Lisbon better understand the vengeance that drives Jane to catch Red John. Does that mean the show will further explore the personal relationship between Jane and Lisbon? “I wouldn’t say that they’re exploring it, but I think the audience gets more of a chance to explore it,” Heller says. “[This season] exposes the sort of raw edge of their feelings more than they have in the past, but that doesn’t mean that there is a ‘My God, I love you!’ moment. That isn’t really how life works. It’s much more about things they don’t realize about themselves that the audience realizes before they do. ” ” What can all of you (mainly who has English as the mother language) can understand about that? I feel that I couldn’t understand completely the local expressions. I’m brasilian as you know. Can some of you give me your feelings about?

  • bloomingviolet2013

    Very, very interesting points, Anomaly! 🙂 And please don’t worry about your so called “long nonsense printing machine” skills when you come up with so many great comments!

    “Jane being a very perceptive person could well have chosen them according to the somewhat hidden aspects of their personalities.”

    Yes and no: Jane bought them gifts he *though* would correspond to aspects of their personalities, as he did when he bough Lisbon emeralds because of her eyes, even though the gaudy jewellery didn’t fit her usual style.There is a pretty big nuance here: take Rigsby’s T-Rex, for example. It fits him because it’s big, carnivorous (Rigsby’s big appetite) and because he enlightens his violent streak and his childlike nature (the flashiest dinosaurian…). Still, does it mean that Wayne is a predator himself, meaning does he act like a T-Rex? No, he’s the sweetest of them all. Same with Cho, does the herbivore Triceratops symbolise only a rather peaceful and defensive nature in its owner? By no means: Cho is able to defend himself, but he’s even more capable of being aggressive; being impassive, doesn’t mean he doesn’t hide some belligerence behind his cool façade. Therefore, both express more the way Jane, “perceptive” as he is, wants to see them in their daily work, I think: two “fighters” who are very different but complete each other. I don’t think that Lisbon would ever agree about his “perception” of her as dreaming of become a pink-dressed bridesmaid… but he fitted his mental picture of her as an “angry little princess”. So my guess is that the fossil symbolized Grace’s part in the team: a bit static (the actress being pregnant and all that), searching for tracks and leads behind her computer screen: the fossil (a “trace” left by another animal) in his rectangular support reminding of her computer screen. That’s why he put it against the computer, waiting for her. The whole team dynamic in the episode is symbolized by those gifts: two leads players working closely (Jane and Lisbon playing poker), two men doing most of the legwork (Cho and Rigsby) and Van Pelt staying at her desk.

    “That item was placed intentionally there and means that Lennon had a connection to the museum: We find out more about the kind of connection he had with Red John as Montero worked there, too (I just can’t let go of this man!). So they might have been in direct contact.”

    There has been some time, but if I recall correctly there was a huge pet peeve in ‘Red Queen’ because the reason for killing Montero has never been fully explained, so we are still reduced to theories… For me, Montero had a connection to Todd Johnson, but it doesn’t mean that he was also involved with RJ. For all we know, the minions don’t necessarily know each other: Lorelei didn’t know Jason, for instance. I think Craig (or some other follower) killed Montero only because of that connection with Todd, to plant evidence in Hightower’s bedroom (the gold statue, if I’m not mistaken…). Otherwise, why would RJ order the death of a minion who wasn’t an immediate danger? Rebecca and Todd were killed because they had been arrested and were then a liability. But Montero wasn’t, as far as we know. Thus, nothing proves that he worked for RJ then, imho.

    “That item was placed there just as another fish related object, no specific meaning intended: It really is a very similar item to Van Pelt’s gift, which camera zoomed on in a recent episode. I don’t know anything about filmmaking, but it’s no stretch to expect that if you show something with insistence there must be a meaning associated with it, even if as an intentional misdirection. Putting something potentially meaningful just for the sake of filling space is bad filmmaking in my humble opinion.”

    I’ll just give you an example where “something potentially meaningful” was only meaningful in the long term: the blinking red light in the previous season. First, it opened the arc about RJ wanting to be Jane’s friend with Jane tricking Panzer in front of the camera. The second occurrence was in Luther’s office, when he was talking to Darcy (giving her the RJ files, if I remember correctly. Someone pointed that out in the comments, back then, but I can’t remember in which episode it was). At the time, that second red light blinking discreetly in the background didn’t make much sense, other than being a consequence of the first one. Still, it received an explanation in ‘The Crimson Hat’ with another blinking red light in the limo when Jane was talking to his nemesis. Hence, the purpose of that second occurrence was to show that the arc was continuing towards its logical and dramatic conclusion… I think it’s the same here: the fossil given to Van Pelt may very well play that “second” occurrence part: it reminds us that the arc with Lorelei is still unfinished and brings a bit of the marine theme in an episode centered about animals. Hence its reappearance in the conclusion of this arc in Lennon’s kitchen. Of course, I may also very well be completely wrong… 😛

    (Sorry for any typo and/or mistake, I’m a hurry… 😉 )

  • anomalycommenter

    Quite undeserved complements!

    I always felt something is not quite correct with my take on Montero, and you nailed it: “nothing proves that he worked for RJ”, thanks!

    It’s late and I can’t think straight, but I suspect that you are thinking at a higher level of abstraction than I was, at least up to now, capable of. Reminds me of one of my most favorite movies, Inception! Considering that I am of glacial speed in thinking and writing, obviously in contrast to you, with the rapid response I received from you after my comment passed moderation, it would take some time for me to fully comprehend what you are actually saying, if I don’t end up in “Limbo”! But at least at this time I have no defense against your analysis. I’ll let you know if I come up with anything. 🙂

  • C Hill

    “I wonder what percentage of fans want to see a romantic relationship between J and L. Could we do a poll?”

    I think it’s as much, if not more, that folks want to see both happy, especially since both are such tragic characters.

    Of course, pairing them off handles the problem in the most expedient fashion…:) But I think both are so flawed that most really hope for the best for them.

  • Ifrah

    That’s a brilliant idea, I was wondering about that too, but I’m not sure how. I would love them as a pair personally, since I’m a major Jisbon shipper. 🙂

  • suzjazz

    “Does that mean the show will further explore the personal relationship between Jane and Lisbon? “I wouldn’t say that they’re exploring it, but I think the audience gets more of a chance to explore it,” Heller says.”

    It sounds like he’s saying that they won’t do anything to act upon their feelings but we will observe them exploring their relationship in some kind of non-physical way. Heller is always very cagy (will not say yes or no) in interviews, as are the lead actors.

    “[This season] exposes the sort of raw edge of their feelings more than they have in the past, but that doesn’t mean that there is a ‘My God, I love you!’ moment. That isn’t really how life works. It’s much more about things they don’t realize about themselves that the audience realizes before they do. ”

    As a native English speaker and a writer, this statement is what we call “B.S.” (bullshit, sorry to be so crude) It is totally meaningless. He isn’t really saying anything. Of *course* there won’t be a “My God, I love you moment”–they already know they love each other! And of course the series is always revealing things about them which the audience realizes before they do. He is refusing to answer the question. Why doesn’t he just say, “You’ll see. I am not at liberty to discuss this”?

  • P

    I think 90% of what Heller says is BS. Early this season, I read an interview in which he clearly stated that Lisbon and Mancini develop feelings for each other. Lisbon tries to hide those feelings for Mancini, but Jane notices and it keeps him “on edge” all season. That has turned out to be complete BS. One hair fluff does not mutual feelings make. I think he deliberately says ambiguous things so that people can read into it whatever they want. Regarding the quote you wrote, a shipper can read that and take it as evidence that Jisbon will happen. An anti-shipper will view it as exactly the opposite.

  • P

    Sorry, my mistake. The hair fluff did not even involve Mancini. Mancini disappeared after the first poker game – which makes it really hard for him and Lisbon to develop feelings. Maybe Jane was so “on edge” that he has Mancini locked up in a hidden cell somewhere. LOL!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thank you for answer, suzjazz. Now can see I already had understood: Bruno spoke too much to say nothing at all. The series always gives us things that the audience gets before they do, not only now.

  • bloomingviolet2013

    You think too highly of me, Anomaly! If you have something more to add/discuss/contradict, go ahead: it’s always an enlightening pleasure to read you thoughts. And the Inception reference made me smile… 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    Hello, Violet. I’m very anxious by the next review. This Behind the Red Curtain (mini) Review really yielded. I loved that. Thank you.

  • Carla Oliveira

    When Jane came down the list to thirty suspects? Did you see that? Look that: http://www.cbs.com/shows/the_mentalist/red-john/

  • anomalycommenter

    Hi, Carla. Let me join you in thanking Reviewbrain and Violet for the amazing job that they are doing here!

    SPOILER ALERT!

    About those 30 suspects, I think that there was no mention of them in the episodes shown till now. And frankly if you ask me, aside from the probable inclusion of the final 7 suspects that are going to be revealed at the season finale in them, I really don’t think much of it! IMHO, it seems merely to be a not very delicate attempt on the part of CBS to gain audience and nothing more. 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    (I’m responding to one of your previous comments instead, so that the column doesn’t get too narrow.)

    Thanks a lot, the pleasure is mine! Let’s admit it, not everyone can write the kind of reviews you and Reviewbrain write (and I’m not forgetting P’s ‘Black Cherry’ Review). We may have different opinions about some interpretations, but the quality of your work is quite evident. And it’s not just me, anyone of the readers of your blog can testify to that! 🙂

    Well, what can I say? Your analysis was better than me, period. Your thoughts about the meaning of those gifts are very interesting. Frankly, I don’t know what to make of them exactly, and your interpretation is the best I have heard. But the point is this is no exact science, and we can’t set up our independent investigation, doing our trials and errors, and don’t have the privilege of falsifiability in the near term.

    I just want to add some of my scattered thoughts about those possibilities we discussed which are not very solid, although not very irrelevant too, but please don’t take them too seriously:

    1- Maybe I should not think too much about Montero, but as you said, it felt to be a “Pet Peeve” that his killer never was revealed. And that is just the point that bugs me till today. For me there are two main suspects, Craig O’Laughlin and as I said before, that policeman/night guard that dated the victim in ‘Red in Tooth and Claw’ for some time (It was some night guard unknown to us who found his body. Yes, it’s very thin!). And about that fossil in Lennon’s house, I still think it very probable that it was bought from that same museum. Let’s just think about what made them write another episode for the same place, something that as far as I know was never done before in this show, only to do it for such a pivotal place for the story! I don’t think that they just run out of filming locations or budget. They could have renamed the place or just used the university, the museum part was either for providing a place for Jane to buy those gifts, or it shows that something fishy still may be there for us to find! So maybe there is no connection to Montero, but he was not the only suspicious link! Better not to repeat what I said in the comments for ‘Red in Tooth and Claw’ here, but Dr. Kidd herself or as a kind of reminder of Sophie Miller really intrigues me. I mean, at both instances there was a discussion about recovering mentally and about a ruined program or research. I don’t know what to make of it but surly there’s got to be something there, even if just as a red herring!

    2- Regarding your point about that fossil referring to the unfinished Lorelei arc, I must admit that my reason for dismissing it does not hold in the face of your analysis and you very well may be quite right about its meaning. Probably we should wait till the end of the season or even series to find our answer. But even then we could not be sure as to how many times the plot has changed!

    3- About the third point, I think we don’t have any particular disagreements!

    4- And, as to what you said about my fourth point, if I did manage to understand what you mean correctly, I get your point and must add that I don’t have and never had any disagreements with what you are saying. Maybe I was not able to express myself clearly. I don’t have any problems with the timing of revealing of the importance of that fossil. If they intended that as red herring or if they have shown us or would show us it’s meaning even at the last minute of the last episode of the show, I’ll be ok with that. I’m just saying that if they never ever intended that as a distraction or never ever used or plan to use it to express a point, that could not be considered good filmmaking, and just this. And as I said above you’re making a good case to support your interpretation here.

    And just like Carla above, I, too, am waiting impatiently for the pleasure of reading yours or Reviewbrain’s review for the next episode. 🙂

  • valentinasweet

    spoiler of heller of lefties / lisbon was wrong, I was hoping to see Jane “on edge” but it did not happen, heller said that this season the FBI would work together often to CBI, but the FBI after two appearances and ‘disappearance, heller had also said that Lisbon and Mancini have developed a form of mutual attraction that would send Jane on the nerves, but instead nothing, in short, the spoilers of heller are true 30%, pity what he had said but that did not happen could be interesting: (

  • suzjazz

    I don’t know…if you go on the Mentalist Facebook page, which has almost 5 million likes, you see post after post saying either that they don’t see any chemistry between J and L (!!!!) or that it would be “somehow wrong” for them to have a romantic relationship. These comments actually seem to outnumber the shippers! However, my impression is that there are a lot of unintelligent people on the FB page, and also people who have not watched the series from the beginning and observed the hundreds of clues indicating chemistry, love, between J and L. In contrast to this blog, where the most intelligent commentary on TM exists. I am getting irritated with the FB page because people 1) hate the RJ plot arc and want it to be over with (they don’t realize that it is THE major plot arc) and 2) think that it would “ruin” the show (I kid you not) if J and L became involved in a romantic relationship. The intelligent and thoughtful commentators all want RJ to continue and J and L to be open about their love at some point.

  • suzjazz

    I am also dying to read Reviewbrain’s review of Red Letter Day, last Sunday’s episode. As an aside (and this doesn’t reveal any spoilers) Rigsby gives Grace a huge orchid plant for her desk (another orchid reference) and there is a *wall-mounted fish* in the bar in the small town where the crime is. This is more evidence for the “fish/fishing” thread. I am starting to watch episodes much more carefully for seemingly insignificant details which actually have meaning in the context of the plot. Thanks to all of you sharp observers! 🙂

  • P

    I haven’t been to the facebook page, but I agree with them and strongly want the RJ plot to be over- I don’t think it needs to be the major plot arc, especially since, in my opinion, the writers have done a terrible job with it…MANY plot holes, they have turned RJ into a corporation or a comic book villain with superpowers…I am just waiting for Marvel Comics to put out their version of Red John. In addition, they don’t have enough original material to last 6 or 7 seasons, so there has been very little progress to date and they keep repeating the find a minion / kill a minion plot. I know many of you disagree with me, but there are many others who agree, Wanting RJ to end doesn’t mean someone is unintelligent…it just means they disagree with you. Intelligent people can look at the same information and draw a different conclusion. In terms of Jisbon, I don’t know what to think anymore. I did want them together, but Jane has treated her so badly, especially this season, that I am starting to think she would be better off with somebody else. They have shown us Lisbon suffering the entire season, while Jane doesn’t seem to care about her at all after Devil’s Cherry. He admitted to Lisbon that he HAD FEELINGS FOR LORELEI!!! Does that sound like a man in love with Lisbon to you? That really bothered me, and i now have doubts about his feelings for Lisbon. I can’t watch two more years of Lisbon suffering while Jane flirts with Erica Frye types. You may call that unintelligent, but I see it as compassionate.

  • estatica

    I do understand those who feel the RJ plot should be resolved and that it’s being dragged for too long. I personally feel RJ is what drives the main character, but I’d also like to see how he would handle his life after RJ in a new season, which according to Heller, we won’t get to see.

    I can also understand those who think Jane has been treating Jane poorly and that perhaps he doesn’t deserve her. I think he still does, despite everything he’s done, as I stated numerous times before.

    Now what I really don’t get are the FB comments saying Jane and Lisbon don’t have chemistry. I mean, really? No chemistry? Makes me wonder if we even watch the same show.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with you P.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I’m already conformed that this is the last season I will watch.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I can understand he he have to catch Red John. He killed his family. But it have to make us cheer him, not hate him. I also think that Lisbon have to turn the tables, stop being trodden down by Jane. He screw up “today” and “tomorow” everything is like nothing had happened. I’m done.

  • P

    Carla, I feel your pain, and agree completely. It just isn’t realistic that Jane could hurt Lisbon like he does, and then in the very next episode everything is bright and happy again. This is my last season as well. I was holding out hope that they would end Rj this season. It is now clear that they won’t, which means Jane will continue being this dark, cold ass next season. Lisbon will continue to be jealous and hurt and depressed. Jane will find a new attractive criminal to flirt with or become infatuated with. I can’t take another year of that.

  • P

    Another thought I just had. I don’t know if this is true or not, but if the facebook page is the official page and Bruno is tracking fan feelings through that page, that could be why he seems to have decided that there will be no Jisbon, especially if you are right and the anti-shippers outnumber the shippers. I think he has said that he takes fan feelings into account. The show was on the bubble for renewal all year. He doesn’t want to risk alienating fans, because if ratings fall any further, it will almost certainly be cancelled next season. Many Jisbon fans will continue watching no matter what…they will take any small ambiguous scrap he gives them and hold out hope that it will happen soon. They are easy to placate. The other fans probably don’t have the same emotional investment. If they get annoyed,they are probably more likely to quit watching. I think he’s looked at the numbers and decided to do what he has done very deliberately.

  • Carla Oliveira

    In the facebook people are “Jisbon”. I could find otherwise. Maybe on Twitter. I have no twitter, I don’t know. People want to Jisbon. Believe me.

  • Rose UK

    I like the idea of Jane & Lisbon coming together, but I don’t particularly want or need to see “what happens after RJ”. Mainly because I agree with those who say that the RJ arc is the raison d’etre of the show – losing such a powerful (albeit invisible) character or force would create a different beast entirely. I realise that some would really enjoy seeing that, but I’m just not one of them. 😉 Just like I didn’t want to know what happened after the end of Pride & Prejudice, for example. The entire book up to that point was about different themes completely. That was its point. Same applies here (only my opinion!!!)

    So I actually like the RJ arc for that very reason, but I also don’t see how they can keep it going past season 6. In fact, I don’t want a season 7 – and I say that as a fan. I want the writing team to KNOW when the end is in sight because that will allow them to create (hopefully) a satisfying and well-crafted resolution. The uncertainty they face because of the networks cancelling shows does not make for good story-telling, imo. And the longer the RJ arc goes on, the more unbelievable and frustrating it becomes. I do like the arc, I just don’t want TM to become some sort of long-running shadow of its former self. Braver to end the whole thing sooner, keep the arc to the end, but do it better.

    As for Jane’s treatment of Lisbon, I waver between unconditional ‘shipping and annoyance! My wish list for season 6 (apart from seeing more inclusive, proper team work, La Roche joining in, Minelli coming back – actually, I’ve got loads) includes more pronounced signs of a changed attitude in Jane and therefore much better treatment of Lisbon. And a bit of fun, please. 😉

  • Lou Ann

    i wholeheartedly agree with Rose UK. Season 6 was in such doubt that the creators have to be looking upon it as a gift. Now they need to make the most of that gift. They should see it as a chance for a spectacular climax and satisfying denouement. Then the show can go down in history as a masterpiece. I’m old enough to remember the series finale of M.A.S.H. It was brilliant and satisfying, carrying the characters into their futures.

  • reviewbrain

    At the risk of ousting myself as unintelligent, I for one would have *loved* to see the RJ arc end with season three, if for nothing else, simply because it was so unexpected! I also completely understand people who are tired of the RJ arc because keeping a long arc interesting is no easy task. And dropping clues without while having them in fact lead (apparently) nowhere can be frustrating to less patient viewers. Also, Strawberries and Cream was one of the best episodes on television *ever*. It’s a hard act to follow especially since everyone thought it had been the end. But if anyone can pull off an even better finale Heller can. And we’ve seen some actual progress in the case this season. So I’m quite optimistic. But please let’s not diss people for their opinions 😉

  • Carla Oliveira

    I also think Strawberries and Cream one of the best episodes on television ever. I also expect that Heller can pull off an even better finale. But I don’t think that it had progress in the case this season. I think it’s so little by now in this point of the show. I’m very frustrated because of the expectative created in the fourth season finale. Sorry about my pessimism. I don’t feel like expecting for next season as I did on this. Unless the” thing get VERY hot”.

  • reviewbrain

    With regards to Jane telling Lisbon he has feelings for Lorelie…

    I have two theories on that:

    1- Jane has *no* feelings for Lorelie. He just said that because Lisbon wouldn’t believe him when he said he didn’t. Also, with new evidence from previous season’s finale that RJ is after Lisbon, he might think it best to push her away since RJ obviously has moles everywhere. Might also explain the “she had it coming” he told Lisbon about Lorelie’s death. Also explains the “sorry” he told Lorelie; for deceiving her, making her think he cared about her.

    2- Jane *does* have feelings for Lorelie. Writers are preparing shippers for what non-shippers have been saying all along: the two are just friends.

  • estatica

    I can also think of a third option:

    – Jane does have feelings for Lorelei. She is a kindred spirit, he can empathise with her, since she also lost a loved one and is on the same mission, which is to avenge her family. Plus, she’s attractive and he did sleep with her. BUT that is 30% of the whole truth.

    So, Jane thinks it’s best not to tell Lisbon he loves her at this point, since he feels it’s neither appropriate or fair to her. He is still determined to carry out his mission; telling her he is in love with her would just complicate things between them. He needs to keep her at arms length… for now.

  • P

    What’s your take on the end game? It seems to me they have made it very clear that Lisbon is in love with Jane…she almost cried when he told her he had feelings for Lorelei, and Lisbon really doesn’t cry. It seems so cruel to end a show with unrequited love on the part of the female lead. But maybe that is Heller thinking he will be “original” and do something “different”. I have seen quotes from time to time from various people associated with the show that not every male female relationship has to be romantic.

    I could live with it it Jane & Lisbon don’t end up together, but would be furious if Lisbon loves Jane and he does not return the feeling (as it appears right now to me). I feel like it they want to signal that the two are just friends, then they should get Lisbon involved in a relationship with someone else. Give her a happy ending. I would not find her one-sided feelings for Jane innovative writing. I would feel like they strung along the shippers deliberately…that “love you” last season changed the game. To now go back on that and say this is unrequited love would be unforgivable to me. I am afraid that is where they are headed though.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I think he confessed have feelings about Lorelei because Lisbon have no believed the otherwise since the start, but I think he feel that Lorelei is like a kindred spirit. I also had some simpathy for her. I think she was sincere. But I can’t believe he loved her, even he doesn’t love Lisbon ( I think he does). He didn’t get bad with her death. He just use her. But when he said that to Lisbon and she gave him a ultimatum I THOUGHT: GO AWAY WITH HER ,SO, SON OF THE BITCH. Sorry, I was angry. kkk

  • Rose UK

    I also think it’s very possible to have “feelings” for someone without necessarily being in love with them (or, in this case, whilst loving someone else). Human emotions and relationships are a messy business. Personally, I think Jane was drawn to Lorelei in the same way that he was drawn to Erica: despite himself. He knew what they were – manipulators, like him. He probably quite enjoyed the game of it – we know how he likes to play human chess! (Add to the mix a good dose of sexual attraction, which seems to blind him somewhat – and they were both powerful temptresses). But Lisbon is nothing like those women at all: she’s forthright and trustworthy! So why is it easier for him to put his trust in a manipulator like Lorelei? Why did he fall for Erica’s scheme? (I know it was ambiguous, but I personally believe she beat him at his own game). Empathy, as Estatica says? Because he’s projecting i.e. he wants others to put their trust in him, to believe he has a good/higher purpose, just as he does with Lorelei? Because, having lived his whole life conning people, he has no idea how to operate on a ‘real’ level and therefore feels on safer ground with fellow schemers? Maybe a schemer can’t hurt him, as deep down he’ll have been expecting some kind of betrayal or trick. If an honest person like Lisbon tricked him, I think it would be 100 times worse for Jane – and maybe that’s why it is taking a lot before he trusts her fully and absolutely. He’s been getting there, though. (Addendum: I do think that Jane trusts in Lisbon for what she is, her core being, but I think he’s having trouble trusting her on a practical and operational level.)

    Darn, I’ve forgotten my point!! Maybe I never had one… 😉

    Interestingly, when I was a casual viewer of seasons 1 & 2 (and nowhere near the level of emotional investment I’m on now!), I thought that Lisbon had a crush on Jane that she couldn’t quite hide (I thought there were a few awkward attempts at flirting from her), while Jane had no real interest whatsoever. He was flirty, but he used and manipulated her many times and never seemed to consider her feelings on the subject. I thought he enjoyed teasing her simply because she was easy to provoke and reacted so honestly and transparently. Since then, I have revised my interpretation somewhat and I now believe that Jane has/had deep but subtle feelings (there’s that word again!) for Lisbon – however, the nature of those feelings is incredibly hard to define and I don’t think he’s letting himself explore them much anyway (although circumstances are forcing both of them to at least be aware of the ‘l’ word). He most definitely cares, though. I remember ReviewBrain saying a few times that Jane’s attachment to Lisbon is actually stronger than the other way around (you know she’d pick herself up and carry on if something awful happened), but the trouble is that this attachment (whatever it is and however it changes, because “feelings” shift and morph all the time: what used to be just pleasure in someone’s company can be heightened to caring, then to love, etc.) is so seldom exemplified in an obvious and sincere way (mostly in dangerous or tense moments).

    Hm. I seem to be Little Miss Put Everything in Brackets today.

  • suzjazz

    I was not referring to people who want the RJ arc to be over as unintelligent. I said that there are many unintelligent people on the FB page. Perhaps “unobservant” would have been a better word. I can understand why people want it to be over–it’s hard to stretch a storyline over 5 and now to be 6 seasons with no resolution and very few clues. But the fact remains, the RJ arc has generated the suspense which is one of the best aspects of the show. And to address the issue of Jane telling Lisbon that “there were some feelings” for Lorelei: in the context of this conversation, an increasingly angry Lisbon accuses Jane of lying about Lorelei, until he feels cornered and angry in return, so he says it just to wound her. I don’t believe Jane has, or ever had, feelings for Lorelei. He was just using her, and he may just be using Lisbon as well (although he definitely has feelings for her, which conflict with his obsession with finding RJ) The mutual love between L and J is quite apparent when you watch the bitter words between them this season: you can only be that angry with someone you love.

  • suzjazz

    @P: I don’t think your analysis is unintelligent; in fact, I agree with a lot of it. Your commentary has always been well thought out. There is a big difference between your analysis and someone who says, “I’m sick of Red John! Move on!” as many of the FB posters say. I also have observed many plot holes and am exasperated with the writers for various reasons. And it’s certainly possible for them to end the RJ arc this season (if they wanted to) or early next season, and still continue to write single episode cases that would be very compelling. I also do not want to observe more of Jane being involved with other women while secretly carrying the torch for Lisbon, who has not been very encouraging, holding him at arms’ length since the beginning of the series–it’s amazing that she even agreed to slow dance with him or allow him to hug her once or twice. This is because she is terrified that her feelings for him will get in the way of her professionalism. What I don’t get is that now that it’s obvious RJ knows they have feelings for each other, why can’t they be open about it?

  • Rose UK

    Err, just to add to my own comment (!): I also think that Jane trusted Lorelei because he wanted *so much* to believe that she would deliver RJ to him. He’s even said that about RJ himself before (season 4 finale??).

  • suzjazz

    I agree with you 100% P. There are actually few things more cliched than having the female lead suffering from unrequited love at the end.

  • suzjazz

    Great commentary, Rose, especially your analysis of why Jane is vulnerable to manipulative temptresses. The only point I differ from you in is that I saw evidence beginning in season 1 that Jane was not simply flirting with Lisbon. Even though he teases her and pushes her buttons (much as an immature high school boy would do) he also longs for her approval: hence the origami frogs, the pony for her birthday, the emerald necklace, etc. In the “prequel” episode about when Jane first came to the CBI, we see him leaving the room saying, “Teresa is a lovely name” to no one in particular. Not saying he was in love, but there is infatuation there for sure.

  • suzjazz

    Reviewbrain, you have to read the comments on TM FB page to understand what I am talking about. Many of these people don’t give reasoned explanations; they simply say “I hate Red John! I am sick of Red John! Time to move on!.” This is what I mean by unintelligent commentary. I also said that I am not saying anyone on this blog is unintelligent (quite the contrary) I even admit that a good case can be made for ending the RJ arc, but no one on the FB page makes it.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I do agree with you. Guys, don’t make me get so sad. This way I even can’t take watching until the end of this season.

  • suzjazz

    @P: You make a very good point. It seems that the writers are blithely ignoring what the fans want (otherwise why didn’t they end the RJ arc already since so many want it to end?) but at the same time, they may very well be concluding that as far as Jisbon is concerned, more fans seem not to want it than do want it to happen, so they will give the majority what they want, since even if the shippers are infuriated, most of them (like me) are so hooked on the show that we will watch it anyway.

  • Rose UK

    How could I have forgotten about the presents?!! I so love the origami frog scene, love it, love it. You could argue that in some ways Jane is just very generous and likes to bring people a bit of joy and wonder – he’s also bought gifts for the others, after all. (Or cynical me says that he sometimes does it to appease). But, well, there couldn’t have been any doubt about who his favourite was when the pony came along! 😉 On a side note, I really want to know what happened to that damn animal. I hope they reference it before the end.

    When he hugged Lisbon in Red Dawn, to me it was like he was just extremely appreciative that this woman had given him a chance. It was also clear that he liked her on sight; he cold read her and understood that she really did care, even then, even though she didn’t know him from Adam. That must have meant a lot.

  • P

    We’re good, no worries! I haven’t looked at the FB page, but I’ve seen the type of comments you’re talking about other places and understand the point you’re making.

    I have the same question that you do. RJ does know (or at least believe) that Jane has feelings for Lisbon. So I don’t understand the need to try to hide it either. That’s another reason I am starting to worry he does just view her as a friend. Hope I’m wrong, but they really aren’t giving me much reason to be optimistic this season.

  • suzjazz

    i wonder if the writers have a “master plan” for the 6th season, or if they just make it up as they go along. If they are worried about ratings, then they have to pay attention to what the fans want. If they are purely “artists” and don’t care, then season 6 may be cancelled mid-season or before because of low ratings. I wonder if there is still time to write/film a season finale that ends the RJ arc? And would that be the end of the series?

  • Carla Oliveira

    I have never read this comments. Where on facebook?

  • suzjazz

    I also share your opinion about Strawberries and Cream–I was hoping that the man Jane shoots was RJ in spite of Jane quickly realizing he’s not. It would have been a huge surprise ending! But then Season 4 might have been the last season. At that time, I had no idea that TM would run into 5 and potentially 6 seasons. It’s true that the longer they continue the RJ arc the harder it is to sustain believable plots in which clues are revealed that don’t give it away too early. But I enjoy the suspense and the constant speculation as to RJ’s identity. It’s a great part of the series.

  • suzjazz

    Carla, if you search for The Mentalist on your FB page, you will be taken to an official-looking CBS page for the show. I have no idea if it is the network’s site or if it is a fan site, but people direct their comments to CBS. There is a lot of justified anger that CBS has not been showing TM but instead sports events and awards shows; it is on Sunday night at 10 pm in the U.S. and half the time it starts late or isn’t on at all.

  • Carla Oliveira

    I don’t think that the majority is not Jisbon. I couldn’t see that. I have been looking for. Where did you see that?

  • suzjazz

    @P: I also fear what you describe for season 6, but just maybe they won’t continue down the dismal road they are going. They seem to have worn out the attractive temptress/criminal thing–it doesn’t seem likely that yet another one will come on the scene. It’s even less likely that a woman will emerge as a legitimate love interest for Jane–I see him as either remaining single or embarking on a relationship with Lisbon (as unlikely as that seems at this time, it’s still possible.) They may continue the “two sides of Jane” approach–one week, he is a dark, cold ass, and the next he is a light-hearted singing gardenia picker. I find this annoying and disconcerting. One thing for sure: they are making the colossal mistake of not exploring Lisbon further and giving her a better role to play in the series. Even if there is no Jisbon (and I will be deeply disappointed if this happens) Lisbon deserves to be honored as a heroine, not a stereotypical woman being hurt by the man she loves. This woman had a bomb strapped to her body, for God’s sake!

  • reviewbrain

    Very true. But there are many different types of love. I see Lisbon as being someone so unaware of her affect on people (see bloodstream review) that the thought that Jane might be in love with her, his being an actual romantic option, never actually occurred to her. Until the “love you” which he asked him to clarify, and he didn’t (insert your favorite reason here).

    Until then, I honestly think she regarded him as a friends/ colleague whom she has a very soft spot for because of his tragic past (and yes, charm). And I don’t want to belittle that relationship by saying she didn’t love him. Of course she did. *In* love? Started happening during season three, and above, I think (see every rose has a thorn review).

    On the other hand, Jane, as highly observant as he is, is never really sure of Lisbon’s emotions. Especially in season one and two where she is always coming at him with snappy retorts. And we’ve seen his judgement compromised when it comes to beautiful women. I can only imagine how bad it is when it comes to Lisbon whom we *know* he cared about.

    But picking up on her (previous?) obliviousness when it comes to the depth of his feelings towards her, I think he’s scared to express those emotions. Yes she loves him, obviously. But *in* love with him? See Jane’s (shock?) at Lisbon’s hurt feelings when he said he cares about Lorelie.

    Thanks Rose, for option three. P, if writers will keep J and L as friends, I doubt they’ll paint her as having unrequited feelings for Jane. I always thought it to be the opposite, to be honest. Either way, she’ll live happily ever after with Walter Mashburn in my head. Maybe they can bring back Hightower for Jane…

  • sophie

    Spoilers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    CBS Lets It Slip Who Red John Is

    A new CBS webpage reveals more than intended about The Mentalist.

    (I-Newswire) Los Angeles, April 18, 2013 – After keeping the secret for five years, has the creative team behind The Mentalist let the cat out of the bag in a gimmicky ratings grab?

    Or did they flub up?

    One name on CBS’ webpage suggesting candidates for Red John’s identity leads fans to a slew of easy-to-spot clues.

    On the recently revealed page, Who Is Red John?, the photo of character Asher Maclean, portrayed by actor Clayton Rohner in “Blood Brothers”, is not only wearing a red shirt (each episode’s title refers to the color red), but his photo stands out from the other suspects in another hardly subtle way.

    Rather than the standard on-set still, as all the other suspects are shown posing for, Rohner’s photo appears pale, altered, and far more sinister.

    To fans familiar with the show’s drawn-out plot twists, Rohner presents a precise match for all that has been revealed about Red John’s physical presence so far, most notably by a blind lover.

    Rohner’s hair is short and poker straight, he’s under six feet tall, “not muscular but not soft”, outdoorsy, and he has, um, the same type of rear end as the man, presumably Red John, who poisoned a woman with a touch to her hand as he passed by her in a corridor.

    Was ‘he is man’ an attempt to write ‘he is maclean’?

    But despite being an easily overlooked Red John candidate due to last minute assumptions by Patrick Jane which a cunning boy being revealed as a murderer simply didn’t bother to refute, Asher Maclean could also be a well-planned cover for another character who matched many of Red John’s traits.

    Jane’s father, Alex Jane, was shown in flashbacks in a season two episode, “Throwing Fire”. The actor playing Alex Jane, however, had a wave to his hair, and may have been too old in the chronology of the show to be Red John (therefore playing more of an Obi Wan to Jane’s Luke).

    And a clue spilled by recently deceased vixen Lorelei suggested Jane met Red John only briefly as an adult when they parted ways after failing to connect despite what she saw as their similarities. Which sounds more like “Blood Brothers” than “Throwing Fire”.

    Is the show hinting strongly in the direction of Maclean to hide the ultimate plot pay-off of revealing Red John to be Patrick’s own father? Maclean’s resemblance to cult leader Bret Stiles suggests his character could fit the Red John persona as completely as Alex Jane.

    Further, Maclean has an obvious taste for manipulating a flock of vulnerable potential followers (troubled teens, who likely included a techno-wiz or two). He was a capable liar who maintained self-control and a casual stance when meeting Patrick Jane, but later showed intense anger and readiness to engage in hand-to-hand combat, as well as owning full-body hunting camouflage.

    As he wasn’t found guilty of murder, only statutory rape, Maclean was likely left angry, unemployed, and devoted to becoming Red John on a full-time basis.

    Thus in the very next episode, the season finale, Red John abducts two teenage girls, killing one where Jane will find her, and giving the other to a friend. As Maclean’s known crime was having sex with a teenage girl, which Jane cleverly put an end to, Maclean returned to targeting Jane as he had before, literally hiring a skywriter to announce game on.

    A final clue?

    “Blood Brothers” was directed by John Polson, who also directed Red John’s first appearance on the show, in “Red John’s Friends”.

    John Polson is a close personal friend of Simon Baker, and once dated Baker’s wife, Rebecca Rigg, suggesting he may have been chosen as a trusted family friend to find just the right balance for showing Maclean to be a potentially murderous menace, yet instantly forgettable as the true face of Red John.

  • P

    Reviewbrain, if they let her end up with Mashburn, that would be the best ending possible, in my opinion. I adore Mashburn!

    And I could support the Hightower/Jane pairing. Hightower wouldn’t put up with Jane’s nonsense…she would keep him in line. She would be good for him. 😉

  • reviewbrain

    Maybe RJ knows more about their feelings for each other than they do. It would be hard for them to act on whatever it is they are feeling when they are both so emotionally insecure..

  • estatica

    In other news, a press release for 5×22 is out! Any one interested can easily check it through google.

    And not that this matters to anyone but myself, but the wonderful Michael Gaston (plays Gale Bertram on the show) replied to my tweet, so I’m trying to play it cool and avoid doing back flips and showing other embarrassing signs of fangirling.

  • P

    I agree completely about Lisbon. I feel what they have done this season to her is very stereotypical and very sad and wrong. I want to see her once again become the strong kick ass woman she was in prior seasons. I would love for her to have another Volker type arc, or some other story that doesn’t revolve around Jane. She is a great character.

    Also agree that the back and forth on Jane’s character is annoying. It gives me whip lash! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    Wow estatica, that is SO cool!!!!! 🙂

  • suzjazz

    Noooooooo!!! No Mashburn! He is really creepy and I can’t understand why Lisbon was attracted to him enough to sleep with him. He’s only titillated by her because she’s a cop and has a gun that that she knows how to use. They’d better not bring back Mashburn for Lisbon…and as far as Hightower and Jane? You’ve got to be kidding. Sometimes I wonder if I am watching the same show as other fans…!

  • suzjazz

    I just checked out the CBS “Suspect List.” Some of the choices are absurd–they are too old or too tall. I don’t think this is serious. I barely remembered who Asher McLean was–but he could certainly be RJ. Heller has said that fans will be “disappointed” when they find out who RJ is. Maybe it’s because it’s a minor character who only appeared on one episode? I was surprised not to see Brett Partridge’s photo–he is my main suspect because he was entranced by the RJ crime scene and Jane calls him a “ghoul” who likes his work too much (Partridge is a coroner’s assistant of some kind.) It’s a stretch, though, I admit–there are a lot of things wrong with my theory. But he could be a RJ minion.

  • anomalycommenter

    Maybe despite the actual events ahead, as I don’t want to read that spoiler of a statement people are talking about, I can’t find any better way to put my position on the matter than what you Rose UK and Lu Ann quite elegantly have put it above! Yours are perfect! 🙂

    I love to see a good ending to their stories and maybe a little bit further than that, but I think that the resolution of the Red John matter and Jane/Lisbon relationship are completely entangled and if some day Red John’s identity is revealed, the chain of events that is sure to follow would, IMHO, lead to a totally different relationship between Jane and Lisbon, at least as a result of the certain transformation in Jane’s mood and his purpose for living. And so we would have a completely transformed show in the two most essential aspects of it. I don’t think that it is impossible, certainly there are very good professional writers out there who are able to pull that off, but still it would be a big gamble for Heller to follow that path!

  • anomalycommenter

    Oh, sorry! Pardon me Lou Ann for misspelling your name! 🙂
    Also “still it” should be “still think it”.

  • anomalycommenter

    As Patrick Jane most probably would have said returning to the blog after a few days, “What did I miss?!” 🙂 Bravo! Very lively and comprehensive discussion of the type of relationship Jane and Lisbon have, above!

    Also regarding that press release you are talking about, estatica, sophie , suzjazz and anybody else who may have read it, would you please let me feel the full weight of the disaster without actually seeing it? Because I dare not read that statement at the moment! Is it the same as revealing those 30 suspects (10 at the moment) that is on their site or more specific? ‘Cause some time ago in response to Carla; I said that I don’t think much of it!

    Do you think that they handed the task over to their technical people who came up with a statement completely truthful to the scripts instead of doing it like a proper deceptive PR statement?

    The way you see it, did they ruin the whole Red John aspect of the show completely or just the events up to the end of this season? Or rather it is in fact not that much of a disaster as I presumed? Thank you in advance for enlightening me! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    I love you, Reviewbrain. You made me happy again. I also think Jane is not sure about Lisbon feelings and, maybe, because of this he’s scared to express his feelings to her. I felt this in last season finale whe he said “love you” in the heat of the moment and don’t confirmed to her. But, the ultimate paragraph, never mind. If it turn out like this, I will feel deceived by the writers. They leaded us to want Jisbon. This not grew up from our mind, but from theirs.

  • reviewbrain

    If I remember correctly, Mashburn was attracted to Lisbon’s “damaged intensity” which Jane agreed with in episode Redline 😉 but really there’s no need to fly off the handle. After all, I was only raising possibilities of other people who might fill in the roles of “significant other” should Heller et al. decide *not* to have Jane and Lisbon end up together. I haven’t lost hope of that yet but have made my peace with the possibility that they might not live happily ever after as a couple. In the end, I suppose as long as the characters are happy, then I’m happy. Even if it’s not with each other :/

  • reviewbrain

    Thank you, Carla 🙂 I love you all here and am so grateful for this blog and it’s wonderful participants.

    You are absolutely right, Carla. The writers have been teasing viewers on the whole J/L thing. I always believed that they *will* in fact end up together. As a writer I’ve recognized too many signs to be in doubt of it. But in this season…it seems like the writers might have gotten cold feet regarding the romance. Unless my first theory turns out to be true, that is.

    Many people have commented on Jane’s mood. I just want to say Jane’s moods haven’t been steady since the season two finale. Also, couples fight. Then they make up. Then they fight again. It’s normal 😉

  • anomalycommenter

    Well, it really should not be considered wishful thinking expecting that the creators of ‘The Mentalist’ to use your talents, Reviewbrain and Violet, as excellent writers to improve the quality of our favorite show! It really is a mistake not to do that! Yes, I’m talking to you Heller! Did you hear me? 🙂

    And about Jane’s mood, well, that’s probably nothing that can’t be fixed by a punch in the nose that I’m sure many here are quite ready to bestow upon him! 😉

  • Rose UK

    Oh goodness, I don’t think I want to know! 😉 I’ve managed to avoid reading Sophie’s comment and whatever that press release thing is I caught someone’s mention of… though I don’t know how much longer I can resist! 😉 I will be skimming all your forthcoming comments through my fingers, lol. (Sorry – don’t mean to be a spoilsport here: if I don’t want to know, I won’t look. Simple. 🙂 )

  • Rose UK

    I do love your take on their relationship, ReviewBrain. I can’t remember if this has already been discussed, but this season it feels like Jane has been much more irritated by Lisbon partly because she is really nagging at his conscience. In reality, it’s probably no more than usual, but the self-questioning events in Devil’s Cherry mean that it is starting to get to him like never before. When we don’t want to accept something, we tend to get annoyed and defensive about it, if not outright rejecting it. Previously, he has blithely waved off any form of criticism or suggestion. This may also account for P’s (?) concern that there has been no development after Devil’s Cherry. Perhaps we actually *are* seeing some progress, but it is taking the form of some initial stages of ‘denial’ and ‘anger’ (or something; my thoughts are getting a bit tangled up now). I hope you see what I mean!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Yes, Rose. I liked this very much.

  • suzjazz

    I admit that I am totally confused. I read Sophie’s post over several times but I still don’t get how, or why, RJ has now been revealed. (Can you further clarify, Sophie?) It seems strange that Heller would allow a major spoiler like this to occur, so it must have happened without his knowledge.

  • estatica

    I also don’t see it as a spoiler. It just sounds like someone is throwing a guess and backing it up with the evidences that support that theory. Nothing has been leaked, as far as I can read.

  • suzjazz

    This is a non-Mentalist related post, but never have I wished more for a real-life Patrick Jane. I am watching a real-life crime drama unfold 5 miles away from the town I live in. The second suspect from the Boston Marathon bombings is at large, heavily armed and dangerous, and people in the entire Boston area are being told to stay inside their homes. It is surreal to say the least. I was up all night watching the news, sure that the police would capture the suspect, but at 1 pm when I finally woke up, he was still at large and the local news is continuing uninterrupted. If any of you also live in the Boston area, stay strong and stay inside.

  • suzjazz

    It is truly terrible and nightmarish and I pray it will all be over soon.

  • suzjazz

    Carla, I agree with you. I will also feel deceived and cheated if J and L do not end up together. There is still hope.

  • Ifrah

    Thank you. I despise the whole Lisbon/Mashburn and Jane/Hightower pairing. I believe that Jisbon is true, and when the time comes, the writers will come to an interesting conclusion for that.

  • suzjazz

    Right on the money, anomaly! You expressed it perfectly and beautifully, better than I ever could. The RJ arc and L and J relationship are tangled together, so much so that when RJ’s identity is revealed (and he is presumably captured and/ or killed) L and J will have to have a different relationship, and Jane will have to re-boot his entire life and future because his former purpose for living (revenge) is gone. He will not so easily be able to ignore Lisbon’s feelings. Of course, she will have to forgive him yet again–he has hurt her so many times now that she has to be a saint indeed to forgive him again! (In a recent episode, he apologizes to her, and she shoots back, “For what? There’s a long list,” and he says, “Consider it an apology for whatever is at the top of the list,” or something to that effect) I wish Bruno Heller himself would rise to the challenge and the “big gamble” as you correctly put it and write an episode of the caliber of “Strawberries and Cream” part ii, which I think he wrote. Maybe he does not want to write an episode about love–there is very little real love shown in the entire series, when you think about it–which is a shame, because he could do it without being cheesy or overly sentimental. I’m not asking for torrid sex scenes: just a real kiss or two would be enough for me!

  • suzjazz

    And I know it must seem totally bizarre to all of you that I am posting on this blog now, but I need something to take my mind off what is happening.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Thank you.I hope you’re right.

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you all very much! I think that I can control my dying curiosity to read Sophie’s post, and really hope that like what estatica is saying, it’s just someone’s guesswork, so till further notice I’m assuming that nothing has happened. ‘Cause in addition to spoiling the show, the least I was wondering was how could we continue commenting on the Red John related aspects of the show from now on?!

  • Lou Ann

    i am from NY. we know what you’re going through. our deep condolences to everyone whose lives have been so tragically harmed by people who just want to kill and maim. keep strong. the whole country is behind you.

  • Carla Oliveira

    You said it, friend. i’m first in line to bestow upon punch in his nose! Ah! I will turn out get sorry for him after that…

  • reviewbrain

    Not bizarre at all my dear. I have many friends in the US, some in Boston and after initially making sure they’re okay and telling them to lock themselves in, have been diligently trying to avoid the news. It’s all too terrible and heartbreaking what happened to those innocent people. Please be safe and take care until this ordeal is over. Meanwhile, if this blog can offer (however meager) a comfort of distraction,then by all means comment away. We’re all here for you.

  • suzjazz

    Thank you Reviewbrain and everyone! 🙂 I don’t know how long we will have to stay indoors with the doors and windows locked, but it’s 5:30 pm already and so far no change in the situation. On the lighter side, what do you think is on TV (TNT) now? Reruns of Season 1 of the Mentalist. I am watching Red Hair and Silver Tape. Lisbon is making the Occam’s Razor argument that sometimes the obvious person did it (“Not every crime is a puzzle inside of a puzzle”) and Jane is lying to Van Pelt saying that Lisbon authorized her to check all the motels–it’s fun to see it all unfolding in Season 1. I keep a running commentary on TM on my desktop, so I have been typing away. I even forgot the frozen pizza in the oven and burned it, I was so busy writing. I had forgotten the scene on now in which Jane has an ice cream cone with the victim’s brother and movingly refers to his own arrogance in causing his wife and child’s death.

    It looks like BF and I will be living on frozen pizza and canned beans for a while, and we have enough toilet paper and booze, so we are all set. I am not making light of the situation–joking just helps me deal with it. Thank you all again for being there.

  • anomalycommenter

    Please be safe and keep strong. We are all behind you. Don’t let them win in trying to put fear in your hearts. Think instead of the brave real heroes who ran towards the blasts to help their fellow human beings. I really wonder what dogmatic indoctrination of any kind can do to people’s minds, turning a potentially helpful doctor for the society into someone craving for madness! I wish I could shake some sense into them! Let’s imagine the much more beautiful world we can build together instead.

  • anomalycommenter

    I guess this is the first time I would be so glad if something turns out to be a red herring! 🙂

  • anomalycommenter

    Thank you very much Suzjazz! In fact I prefer your way of expressing it. Also I think that maybe, just maybe, there is a reason for not showing that real love! 😉

  • suzjazz

    Good news: the second bomber has been taken into custody, thanks to great work by Federal agents and local police working harmoniously and at great risk to their lives. I hope it is all over…it is over for now, thank God.

  • Carla Oliveira

    Very good news suzjazz, thank you. I’m so glad to hear that.

  • suzjazz

    I feel like I should be celebrating, but it’s 1:30 am and I don’t know why I’m still awake. Just finished reading a lengthy Jisbon fanfic to make me feel better about the way they are acting towards each other this season. I’m afraid that i am a real shipper after all!

  • Carla Oliveira

    Who is not? I don’t believe that people who doesn’t want them to get together are in major number than who wants. They are seducing each other since the start, people see that. Did you see in RED BARN, when she answered the Ray’s call on the phone? She was looking his reaction. They don’t are so friends….What is Jisbon fanfic?

  • anomalycommenter

    I think “fanfic” is short for “fan-fiction” which means fiction written by fans of a story or show most probably using the characters present in that story, so “Jisbon fanfic” should mean ‘The Mentalist’ fan-fiction containing some or even centered around Jane and Lisbon having romantic moments. A long time ago I read some fan-fiction stories on ‘http://www.fanfiction.net/tv/Mentalist/’ , you can try some for yourself! 🙂

  • Carla Oliveira

    hahaha.You are like me. I love this things.

  • Rose UK

    A comment by Ifrah about the episode titles on the review of Red Letter Day has led me back here: I was browsing the list of titles to see what I could see when I noticed that one of the directors is called Ferland! And on happening to watch Behind the Red Curtain again today, I noticed that the name ‘Erika Green’ (a writer) features on a list of suspects or something. Heh. The episodes must be full of in-jokes like this, I just never notice!

    And one very final comment: when the PR woman walks off to make a call to the mysterious investor, the actual killer’s phone rings about a second later. It’s so discreet that I pretty much noticed by accident – and that was on the 3rd viewing!

  • estatica

    Nothing relevant to add at this point, but needed to post something so I can follow up comments. I loved the review and art, as always! I still haven’t read all the comments, though. Still, I’m really lucky to be able to read these amazing insights. They make the whole experience of watching the TV show even better.

  • rjinfrance

    Hello everyone! I’ve never posted here before, but I’ve been told about this site a couple of times so I decided to check it out. I’ve been avidly watching The Mentalist for about a year now. I’ve seen every episode, some of them so many times that I’ve almost got the script memorised. lol I became so confused with all the different references, coincidences and connections that I created a timeline. I’ve tried to include as many events mentioned in each episode–even the seemingly unrelated ones. After doing this, I have come up with a few theories about who Red John is. My theory includes Glenn/Glennda, Derek Logan (from the Rancho Rosa High School Reunion episode), and Wayne Rigsby.

    Has anyone here ever considered the angle that Red John may be one of the CBI team?

  • reviewbrain

    Welcome to the blog!
    In season three I had wondered if the writer’s spoilers were hinting that one of the team members was am RJ accomplice. I even did a poll on who it could be..

  • rjinfrance

    Really!?! That’s interesting. What did you come up with from this poll?

  • Helena Sideris

    Has anyone noticed that the position of the dead woman’s body is identical to that of Evelyn McHale, a woman that jumped off the Empire State Building a long time ago (also immortalized through Andy Warhol)? I only recognized it because her legs were crossed, as though she were relaxing.

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